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To: alabascal@ucdavis.edu, boccibob%groovy@us.oracle.com, jjtapper@ucdavis.edu,
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                 hazrat Gregor Mosheh
    4301-B Ashland Terrace Davis, CA 95616  (916) 757-7319                 
     
   gmosheh@nyx.cs.du.edu      mosheh@cybernet.cse.fau.edu

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From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep  2 17:01:13 1993
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Subject: Re: Long weekend report
From: andy@wco.ftp.com  (Andy Nourse)
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>   > Let's see, does that mean we have to wait until 2002 for the
>   > trance/tribal revival craze?  Or do things move faster than
>   > that in the techno world?
>   
>   The trance/tribal revival happened in the fall of '92.  How'd you miss it?

    I dunno, but I did too, (probably 'cause I wasn't going to raves then).
    Maybe we need to revive it again...
    


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The recording still says it will be updated with location info at 4PM.



From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep  2 18:06:25 1993
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From: Monica Tauriello <monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
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Subject: demorave
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hell, if we only get 100, that's still a good turnout! besides, if we have
some good musick, and it were free, i think that would attract people
(especially if it's massively flyered, etc.)

monicat

From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep  2 21:07:22 1993
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From: dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com (JUMP IN THE FIRE)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Accompaniment and perfection
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As a drummer, I seriously enjoy whacking on stuff, and I enjoy hearing
skillful whacking on stuff, but most of what people do at raves with
woodblocks, whistles, etc. isn't skilled at all -- it simply detracts 
from the experience that I get when a perfect drum-groove is interrupted
by some yotz who can't even keep a straight 4.

I enjoy participating, and think that participatory events are excellent
and help crumble the edifice of spectacular society where life is a thing
to be watched and consumed instead of lived -- but unskilled and out-of-time
distractions aren't a contribution, they're an ego-stroke.  I hope, when
I drum in a group, that I am helping to make a beat bigger than myself or
any individual within the gorup could.  If I'm not, I'm just beating off
in public.

The big problem is that we are taught to consume rather than participate, so
we don't often learn the skills that let us participate in group efforts.
It's a tough call, but I think we should accept our limitations while
working to transcend them.  Bring your lightsticks, flashlights, funky
clothes, luv phasers, beanbags, smiles, energy, strength; all make the
world/r*** more interesting than it was -- but don't fuck with the music
unless by doing so you think you can create something better.


Shifting gears --> Most of the beats that get me tweekin' are from live
playing, not straight outa the machine.  Live playing can crust together
that elusive combination of accent, delay, swing, nuance, and reaction
which creates that Beat in a way that is difficult (and certainly non-
intuitive) to program into a sequencer directly.  But can the musicians
keep themselves there?  Rarely.  James Brown rode his bands harder than
just about anyone, and they only got it some of the time.  The machine,
once it gets it, can go on indefinitely with very little skill involved.
The humans have to be greatly skilled, but they can react real-time in
ways that the machine won't.  Anyone who's been to Crash Worship shows
and raves too knows the difference, even though the DJ can mix in ways
that the record makers didn't intend.

// g

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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
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Subject: Re: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
To: dhchung@us.oracle.com (Derek Chung)
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I called the Universe number and it has been disconnected....what's going on??



-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
                                Tamara Palmer
                              trance@netcom.com
                           You are in...THE LIGHT!
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
-- 

From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep  3 10:19:28 1993
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From: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
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> I called the Universe number and it has been disconnected....what's going on??
Maybe God didn't pay his phone bill.


From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep  3 10:48:03 1993
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    from dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com (JUMP IN THE FIRE)
    <9309030222.AA04239@curly.agames.com>
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 93 10:45:16 -0700
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From: dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com (JUMP IN THE FIRE)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 93 19:22:37 PDT
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Accompaniment and perfection
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-ID: <9309030222.AA04239@curly.agames.com>


>As a drummer, I seriously enjoy whacking on stuff, and I enjoy hearing
>skillful whacking on stuff, but most of what people do at raves with
>woodblocks, whistles, etc. isn't skilled at all -- it simply detracts 
>from the experience that I get when a perfect drum-groove is interrupted
>by some yotz who can't even keep a straight 4.
I am sorry, but not all of us are drummers and can even keep a straight 
4.  I may be the only one, but I enjoy hearing people that are somewhat 
on the beat, banging bongos and wooden blocks and tamborines.  I 
think it adds to the beat rather than detract from it.  
>I enjoy participating, and think that participatory events are excellent
>and help crumble the edifice of spectacular society where life is a thing
>to be watched and consumed instead of lived -- but unskilled and out-of-time
>distractions aren't a contribution, they're an ego-stroke.  I hope, when
>I drum in a group, that I am helping to make a beat bigger than myself or
>any individual within the gorup could.  If I'm not, I'm just beating off
>in public.
I don't think it had anything at all to do with the ego.  I personally 
wish I had a noise maker at times.  It just is enjoyable to make 
noise to the beat that is already going. 

Don't beat off in public you might get in trouble. ;-)
>The big problem is that we are taught to consume rather than participate, so
>we don't often learn the skills that let us participate in group efforts.
>It's a tough call, but I think we should accept our limitations while
>working to transcend them.  Bring your lightsticks, flashlights, funky
>clothes, luv phasers, beanbags, smiles, energy, strength; all make the
>world/r*** more interesting than it was -- but don't fuck with the music
>unless by doing so you think you can create something better.
This is your particular opinion that I tend to disagree with.  You 
can always move to someplace where they are not playing with any 
type of noisemaker. 

Rest deleted. 


Again, just my personal opinion. Hope everyone has a good extended 
weekend. 

:-)
vivianm

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 10:54:11 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9309031754.AA05934@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
To: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 93 10:54:12 PDT
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My mailer says that Michael Wertheim said:
> 
>>I called the Universe number and it has been disconnected....what's going on??
> Maybe God didn't pay his phone bill.
Word on the street is that Universe is cancelled. 
-- 
Bryce Ryan -- Specializing in AMBIANCE -- brycer@netcom.com
"The revolution will not be televised, 
 but the proceedings will be available online."  Art McGee

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 11:16:15 1993
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From: giamma@oas.olivetti.com (Gianmaria Clerici)
Message-Id: <9309031816.AA15285@milano.atc.olivetti.com>
Subject: YSH
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu (SFRavers)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 11:16:01 -0700 (PDT)
Organization: Olivetti Advanced Technology Center - SW Technologies
Phone: (408) 366-3545
Fax:   (408) 366-3606
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I'm back in town after 2 weeks of vacation in Italy and Amsterdam
(were I got some cool local music) and I also haven't post a review
in ........ ages so here it is:

			YSH was better than ever

Map point at Cleo on Haight St.
The map was incorrect so it took me (and a bunch of other people) a while
to find the right spot. It was actually kind of fun.
When we finally found it, we also found a police car sending people away from 
what was the entrance: a fence with a hole that was surrounding a private
property of TEXACO I guess.
The person at the door decided to leave the spot so that the police would leave
too. They actually said that they were going to free the dogs.
Unfortunately they didn't leave right away. More people showed up and also
a cab dropped someone.
Anyway the police was looking from far away and after a final check they left 
and we all got in. We still couldn't hear the music so we didn't know for sure 
if there was something going on.
After few minutes of walking on a rough path (we took the wrong one) we
started to see the bonfire and hear the music. 
The place was almost identical to the one were they had it a couple of time 
before (it was just few minutes away from it) but the bonfire made it very very 
cool.
It looked like a small FMR: outdoor (nice breeze), nice people (well actually
nicer than the FMR crowd these days), and almost free (the $5 donation is 
absolutely worth it).
The music was good and more and more people got into the groove dancing (who 
was the DJ around midnight?).
I left during Laura set (who was very impressive) and more people were coming.

	Thanks YSH

					Gianmaria


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 11:56:39 1993
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From: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Message-Id: <9309031856.AA18171@slack>
Subject: Re: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF Raves)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 12:56:41 -0600 (MDT)
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> >>I called the Universe number and it has been disconnected....what's going on??
> > Maybe God didn't pay his phone bill.
> Word on the street is that Universe is cancelled. 

Big surprise.

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 11:58:33 1993
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 11:59 PDT
From: PGRASSI@SCUACC.SCU.EDU
Subject: Re: This Weeks Rave Guide
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Thought it was worth mentioning that Spundae at DV8 will also include
djs Doc Martin, Rick Preston, Spun, Dutch and Simon...cool.
\p.gracious

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 12:09:53 1993
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At 10:54 AM 9/3/93 -0700, Bryce Ryan wrote:
>My mailer says that Michael Wertheim said:
>> 
>>>I called the Universe number and it has been disconnected....what's going
>>>on??
>> Maybe God didn't pay his phone bill.
>Word on the street is that Universe is cancelled. 

Like, dude, like, yknow, like, so much like, negativity is, yknow, like too
much. I think, like, just groovin' on the Universe, yknow, is, yknow, like,
just groovy. So like, why not, yknow, like, just groove on positive things,
yknow?

:)


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 12:41:52 1993
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From: jocelyn@hal.com (Jocelyn Cordell)
Message-Id: <9309031941.AA03711@dre.hal.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: deep space & massive culture
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I went to deep space at the oasis last night with 
a bunch of people- it was very good.

the only negative thing about it was that the door people were
being especially adamant about ID's. It didn't make a 
difference to me, but some of my friends <21 didn't get in.....

at first.

I finally convinced three of my underaged friends to just walk 
back in with me, heads held high. Funnily enough, the cops
were out front talking to the bouncers, providing just the perfect 
amount of distraction for everyone to get in :)

Lots of energy inside- lots of fun!

There were two after parties, but I was tired and had work-
so- I became a pumpkin and nursed the sloppy network of 
dream-seeds inside.

ATTENTION: Massive Culture got their permits back from...
(was it Richmond or Livermore?)- so the party should be going on/off.
Be smart: call the info line!

Peace-

Jocelyn

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 12:55:51 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309031616.AA25209@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: mw@sybase.com, phred@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: Re:  Long weekend report
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


My definition of 'tribal' may differ somewhat from Mike's.  Since I don't
know much about artists and titles I can't name the names I'd specify as
onna tribal tip, but I've been hearing more and more of it on tapes lately
(maybe that's not the best way to gauge the currency of the scene, of
course).  Nonetheless, I have ulterior motives here, because I think
tribal will go over big-time in the Northwest if anything really gets
moving up here.

----------------------
 what do you mean by tribal?  I realize that your grasp of the "terms"
and the music they refer to may be sketchy-mine sure is, but could you try
to simply describe the music in terms of instrumentation, samples, type
of drumming [simple kick, hats & snare or lots of toms and other drums?],
tempo, etc.?

*

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 13:04:05 1993
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 93 13:04:00 PDT
From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309032004.AA25020@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Subject: Re: Long weekend report
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> fred heutte says:
> 
> >One other thing I'm seeing more of in the tribal tradition, and this is
> >a good trend in the scene, is people bringing drums and providing a
> >live counter-component to the records.  I've seen this at Boogie Buffet,
> >YSH and elsewhere, and it works quite well to feather the edges of the
> >relentlessly perfect beats we hear from the records.

Jon answers:
> [...]it drives me
> nuts to hear some lowly HUMAN sitting there with a drum going off in
> his own personal time signature. 

I'm with Jon here.  Although I can enjoy the occasional well-played 
conga (the guy at BB isn't too bad), the dull thuds of off-beat acoustic 
percussion are usually delivered at an energy level far below the super-
human capabilities of our electified friends.  I also find the self-
absorption of live performers to be a bit of a vibe-sink.

> i like that "relentless
> perfection"... we strive for it all the time, in the studio.  jeno
> told my roommate that he really loved the timbale section in "trip
> harder" because it sounded like a live person, but i thought it was a
> failure on my part because i played it rather sloppily and we didn't
> correct all the strikes afterwards. 

Well, the achievement of "perfection" is a pretty subjective thing.  After
all, if everything was quantized down to quarter notes all we'd have is a
horribly mushy metronome.

The Trip's timbale section never sounded completely human to me.  It was 
partially quantized, and the "sloppiness" did not sound like the human feel 
factor one would expect from a professional percussionist.  It was still 
laid over a perfect beat, and I found the timing of the notes to be eclectic 
*and* mechanical, and thankfully nonhuman.  I thought it was great.

For me, raving is largely about the transcendance of our normal everyday
limits.  Sensory overload, unrestricted dancing, sleep deprivation, trance, 
psychedelics, luv phasers, abandonment of ego...  It makes sense that music 
that supports getting us beyond ourselves is music that is created beyond 
the pathetic limits of our physical state.  Just like computers are an 
extension of our physical selves, the music made by computers is an 
extension of our musical and rhythmic sensibilities.  Why rein it in?  We 
don't have to stay in the Stone Age in order to satisfy our tribal yearnings.  
I love playing keyboards along with sequenced tracks, but I would never 
subject anyone at a rave to the horrors of my all-to-human style.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com
____________________________________________________________________________






From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 13:13:21 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309031725.AA25243@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  Accompaniment and perfection
Cc: ames!athena.mit.edu!isbell
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


The big problem is that we are taught to consume rather than participate, so
we don't often learn the skills that let us participate in group efforts.
--------

a very good point, one of the most crippling things about popular culture,
IMHO.



It's a tough call, but I think we should accept our limitations while
working to transcend them.  Bring your lightsticks, flashlights, funky
clothes, luv phasers, beanbags, smiles, energy, strength; all make the
world/r*** more interesting than it was -- but don't fuck with the music
unless by doing so you think you can create something better.
----------
I can see this both ways...but I tend to side with the partially or non-
skilled drummer - I am a musician, and I know from personal experience
that all the pissed off people in my past who had to suffer (& I *do* mean
SUFFER) through my early learning stages (some say I'm still there, but
hey, as $hort sez "If ya don't like my raps, don't buy 'em, please")
would have *ended* my development as a musician if I had listened to
their complaints and quit playing...so I try to grin and bear it when
I hear someone struggling.  I admit it might be annoying at times, but
in my experience it doesn't happen *that* much and often the drumming
is pretty good!  Beyond that, to me, to stifle a developing musician
is a far worse crime than kicking a few sloppy of muffed beats...even
giants like coltrane sounded like shit at one point, ya know?  but if
he had been successfully stifled - well, it would certainly have been
*our* loss (this of course applies outside of the jazz scene, I used
coltrane to make a point about the neccessity of playing truly BAD
music during developmental stages - everybody goes through it...).

but of course that's just *my* opinion...as Charles Isbell would say
"what's yours?"

-=jack=-

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 13:18:27 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9309032018.AA26897@netcom5.netcom.com>
Subject: Massive Culture
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 93 13:18:41 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Today's San Jose _Mercury News_ reports that Massive
Culture retained it's permits, though no alcohol will
be served, and the time will be 2PM to 2AM.  Also, I
think it's the Livermore site, since they mentioned
580.
-- 
Bryce Ryan -- Specializing in AMBIANCE -- brycer@netcom.com
"The revolution will not be televised, 
 but the proceedings will be available online."  Art McGee

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 13:25:26 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
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To: giamma@oas.olivetti.com, sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re:  YSH
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


The music was good and more and more people got into the groove dancing (who 
was the DJ around midnight?).
------
I don't know but she was rippin' it up.  Played an excellent record
called Leonard Nimoy, BTW, and didn't mind telling me what it was at all!


*

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 13:53:00 1993
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From: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
Message-Id: <9309032053.AA08371@orion.sybgate.sybase.com>
To: hart@ntmtv.com
Subject: Re:  Long weekend report
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> what do you mean by tribal?

Lots of organic sounding percussion -- i.e. congas and timbales, rather than
your typical kick/snare/hats sound that most techno uses.

Examples (all are from last year) ---

Jambo: "Drum Attack"
Studio X: "Join the Tribe" (b-side of "Los Kings del Mambo")
808 State: "Reaper Repo" (b-side of "Timebomb")
Ultraviolet Catastrophe: "Trip Harder" (b-side of "The Trip")
Baha Men: "Back to the Island"

And going back further --
Renegade Soundwave: "The Phantom"


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 14:56:01 1993
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From: ccat@netcom.com (ccat)
Message-Id: <9309032156.AA00854@netcom4.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Massive culture
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

  >"though no alcohol will be served." Bryce, Does this mean that they
were originally going to serve alcohol..or is this merely the paper trying
to put their slant on things...? -Chris. 


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 15:00:29 1993
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From: Fred Heutte <phred@well.sf.ca.us>
To: brycer@netcom.com, mw@sybase.com
Subject: Re: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <93Sep3.145924pdt.13911-1@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Fri, 3 Sep 1993 14:59:21 -0700
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Cancelled because of other directly competing large efforts.  Given the
props Universe is getting from their UK events, I'd have to say this is
a case of imitation exceeding flattery.

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 15:02:16 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309032202.AA26731@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: hart@ntmtv.com
Subject: Re:  Accompaniment and perfection
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> to stifle a developing musician
> is a far worse crime than kicking a few sloppy of muffed beats..

That all depends.  A developing musician properly stifled might turn
their attention toward acquiring a computer/synth/sampler and start
channeling their creative energy into producing some kickass techno
for us to dance to. ;-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com
____________________________________________________________________________


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 15:30:13 1993
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 93 15:31:44 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Lee Fogel's message of Fri, 3 Sep 93 15:02:11 PDT <9309032202.AA26731@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
Subject:  Accompaniment and perfection
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>> to stifle a developing musician
>> is a far worse crime than kicking a few sloppy of muffed beats..

i don't know who wrote this (i missed the original) but: i have no
wish to stifle anyone.  i would just love for these developing
musicians to go lock themselves away and FINISH DEVELOPING before
subjecting me to their awkward arrhythmia.

geez, beginning pianists do NOT get to play at carnegie hall, y'know.
you gotta WORK at it first.  i know rave culture has a DIY aspect to
it but, dammit, i pay $20 to get in to these massives to hear boomin'
tunes on a kick ass system and it BOTHERS me when these drummers start
in messing up the beats and ruining my trance.

Jon Drukman                                      jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always note the sequencer - this will never let us down.

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 15:51:06 1993
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From: howardb@enlil.premenos.sf.ca.us (Howard Berkey)
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Subject: Re: Massive culture
To: ccat@netcom.com (ccat)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 15:49:01 -0800 (PDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309032156.AA00854@netcom4.netcom.com> from "ccat" at Sep 3, 93 02:56:14 pm
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> 
>   >"though no alcohol will be served." Bryce, Does this mean that they
> were originally going to serve alcohol..or is this merely the paper trying
> to put their slant on things...? -Chris. 
> 
> 

I believe they were... Massive Culture is not entirely a rave (Wicked,
to my understanding, is about 1/3 of the total event).

On the flyer, they show a rap stage/tent, a rock stage/tent, various
arcade type stuff, a Wicked tent, and other stuff.  It looks like a
rap meets rock meets rave type thingie.  Additionally, going from 2pm
to 2am is kind of wierd wicked hours. 

I've heard enough negative things about it (a lot from the flyer
itself, actually) that I'm going to avoid it at all costs. 

-H-


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 15:53:10 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9309032253.AA05956@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Massive culture
To: ccat@netcom.com (ccat)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 93 15:53:17 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309032156.AA00854@netcom4.netcom.com>; from "ccat" at Sep 3, 93 2:56 pm
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My mailer says that ccat said:
> 
>   >"though no alcohol will be served." Bryce, Does this mean that they
> were originally going to serve alcohol..or is this merely the paper trying
> to put their slant on things...? -Chris. 
> 
The article I read stated that the event originally had a permit to serve
alcohol.  The article went on to report that this portion of the permit
was revoked.

The statement made above are based strictly upon quotations taken
from today's _Mercury News_.
-- 
Bryce Ryan -- Specializing in AMBIANCE -- brycer@netcom.com
"The revolution will not be televised, 
 but the proceedings will be available online."  Art McGee

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 16:48:32 1993
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 16:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Grant <tgrant@netcom.com>
Subject: Corduroy City
To: Sam Clam's Disco <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9309031612.A24532-a100000@netcom3>
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If you're lookin' for a non-massive alternative or a Mission Rock after
party, you might want to consider Corduroy City tonight.  New warehouse space
on 11th street across from the O and great DJs:

John Howard
Gavan
Spun

* plus * in the "funk" room:

Jan Cooley
Mark Farina
Brian Hughes

sounds like $5 worth to me!
call 974-9715 for precise location info...

see y'all at MR and CC,

Tony

/--------------------------------------------------------------\
|  Tony Grant          tgrant@netcom.com       s y n e r g y   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------/



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 17:08:55 1993
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 93 16:55:55 -0700
From: Michael Wertheim <twitch@casa.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <9309032355.AA11093@casa.Stanford.EDU>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: sale at twitch
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


The record company that I run is having a sale.  I know that using the net
and sfraves for profit is a no no, but we've greatly reduced our prices for
this sale, and Brian approved this message before I sent it out.


Here's the deal:

All items are $10 each.  Or get any five items for $40.

Details: Minimum order of $20.  (A two-record set counts as one item.  A CD
also counts as one item.)  Prices include postage.  If you want to order by
COD, the UPS COD charge is $4.  Payment must be in the form of check or
money order, made payable to Twitch.  We do not accept credit cards.
These prices are valid for US and Canada customers only.  Sale ends 9/17/93.

Our address: 584 Castro Street, Suite 600, SF, CA  94114.  This address is just
a mailbox, not our actual office.  Also, please do not send me email trying to
arrange a time for me to deliver an order to you in person.  I would prefer to
conduct everything by mail.  And please do not ask us to notify you by email
that we received your order.


Here's what's available (CDs listed first, followed by vinyl) ---



Compact Discs (CDs are all at least 73 minutes long.)


Twitch CD #8

DOP - "Non-Stop"
Harri - "Skelph"
Helicopter - "On Ya Way"
The Wildchild Experience - "Jump to My Beat"
Mother - "All Funked Up"
Daisy Glow - "Sunday in the Park"
Central Fire - "Central Fire"
Direckt - "Two Fatt Guitars"
Up Above the World - "Unleashed in the East"
Meat Beat Manifesto - "Mindstream"
Front 242 - "Religion"
PG1 - "Jazz Energy"


Twitch CD #7

The Shamen - "Boss Drum"
Gipsy - "I Trance You"
RuPaul - "Supermodel"
Paradise Organisation - "Prayer Tower"
Slave to External - "Disintegrate"
Fargetta - "Music Is Movin'"
Outermind - "I Still Want You"
Daisy Glow - "Give It All"
Tasti Box - "Asid"
Lemon Interupt - "Minniapolis"
Intermix - "Monument"
Illuminator - "Your Eyes Will Be Open"


Twitch CD #6

Lion Rock - "Lion Rock"
Baha Men - "Back to the Island"
Jaco - "Show Some Love"
The Orb - "Blue Room"
Fini Tribe - "Forever Green"
Coco Steel & Lovebomb - "You Can't Stop The Groove"
Supereal - "One Nation"
Prefab Sprout - "If You Don't Love Me"
Shakedown Productions - "Alhambra"
Electrosonik - "I am the Creator"
The Ultraviolet Catastrophe - "Trip Harder" (12" mix)


Twitch CD #5

DOP - "Groovy Beat"
Gat Decor - "Passion"
Rozalla - "Are You Ready to Fly"
Rough and Raw - "Money for Nothing"
The Darwin Chamber - "Mesmerelda"
Studio X - "Los Kings del Mambo"
M to the Third Power - "Brainwaves"
Kid Unknown - "Nightmare"
M17 - "Rockin' Down the House"
Run Tings - "Fires Burning"
Tasti Box - "Electrons"


Twitch CD #4

React 2 Rhythm - "Whatever You Dream"
Young American Primitive - "Nature"
Jam & Spoon - "Stella"
Skin Up - "Ivory"
Sonic Boom - "Tra La La"
Zero B - "Lock Up"
Direckt - "I Got Ya"
Sonz of a Loop da Loop Era - "Far Out"
After Dark - "Come With Me"
Nebula II - "Flatliners"



Vinyl 2-record sets:


Twitch Volume 12

Mother - "All Funked Up"
Mr. Jackson - "Mo'kassa"
DOP - "Non-Stop"
Front 242 - "Religion"
The Wildchild Experience - "Jump to My Beat"
Daisy Glow - "Sunday in the Park"
PG1 - "Jazz Energy"
Da Juice - "C'Mon C'Mon"


Twitch Volume 11

Direckt - "Two Fatt Guitars"
Meat Beat Manifesto - "Mindstream"
Harri - "Skelph"
Cantor & Moses - "Cosmic Dub"
Up Above The World - "Unleashed in the East"
Helicopter - "On Ya Way"
Slave to External - "Disintegrate"
Central Fire - "Central Fire"


Twitch Volume 10

The Shamen - "Boss Drum"
RuPaul - "Supermodel"
Daisy Glow - "Give It All"
House Pimps - "Zulu Nation"
Intermix - "Monument"
Lemon Interupt - "Minniapolis"
Outermind - "I Still Want You"
Paradise Organisation - "Prayer Tower"


Twitch Volume 9

The Orb - "Blue Room"
Jaco - "Show Some Love"
Coco Steel & Lovebomb - "You Can't Stop The Groove"
Gipsy - "I Trance You"
Fini Tribe - "Forever Green"
Bongo Massive - "Pascal's Dance"
Fargetta - "Music Is Movin'"
The Ultraviolet Catastrophe - "Trip Hardcore"


Twitch Volume 8

Supereal - "One Nation"
Prefab Sprout - "If You Don't Love Me"
Fierce Ruling Diva - "You Gotta Believe in Something"
Electrosonik - "I am the Creator"
Tasti Box - "Asid"
Shakedown Productions - "Alhambra"
Baha Men - "Back to the Island"
Lion Rock - "Lion Rock"


Twitch Volume 7

Rough and Raw - "Money for Nothing"
Gat Decor - "Passion"
M to the Third Power - "Brainwaves"
Studio X - "Los Kings del Mambo"
Rozalla - "Are You Ready to Fly"
DOP - "Groovy Beat"
The Darwin Chamber - "Mesmerelda"
Human Resource - "Dominating the Mix"


Twitch Volume 6

Sonz of a Loop da Loop Era - "Far Out"
Kid Unknown - "Nightmare"
Direckt - "I Got Ya"
Run Tings - "Fires Burning"
Zero B - "Lock Up"
Two Little Boys - "Stylophonia"
Young American Primitive - "Nature"
Nebula II - "Flatliners"


Twitch Volume 4

Masterminds - "EMF"
Messiah - "There Is No Law"
Kelly G Perfect Rhythm - "PM"
Tech Man 1 - "Changes"
Biohazard PCB - "Ingest"
Radioactive Goldfish - "LSD Is The Bomb"
Latino Party - "Tequila" / "The Party"
Return Of The Living Acid - "Get Funky"




From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 18:45:00 1993
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 18:43:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Grant <tgrant@netcom.com>
Subject: Corduroy City: call for space
To: Sam Clam's Disco <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9309031815.A11005-9100000@netcom3>
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Whooops!  Corduroy City may not be on 11th street after all.
Call 974.9715 for location.

Tony

/--------------------------------------------------------------\
|  Tony Grant          tgrant@netcom.com       s y n e r g y   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------/



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 18:45:04 1993
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From: chinacat@netcom.com (J. Petersen)
Message-Id: <9309040145.AA27678@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Massive culture
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 93 18:45:10 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



> I've heard enough negative things about it (a lot from the flyer
> itself, actually) that I'm going to avoid it at all costs. 

Like what were some of the bad things you heard? I was planning on
going, just to see how the whole thing went down... but other
considerations have intervened. My attitude towards the flyer
was 'hmm, interesteing. I'll bet this won't come off quite like
they're hoping for, but it's worth checking out for $20'. Of
course I've had misgivings and doubts floating around in my
head... but what are the negative things you heard? Personally
I didn't like the promises of extra-stringent security and
searches...

Still, it's an interesting concept. Like taking Lollapalozza
one step further. I would think that anyone trying to unite
disparate elements of the music scene deserves at least a
chance to show their stuff, rather than dismissing the event
before it's even happened!

-- 
Jim Petersen
chinacat@netcom.com


-- 
Jim Petersen
chinacat@netcom.com


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 19:19:54 1993
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From: Joanna [Jo] <jng@soda.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <9309040219.AA22743@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject: ride to Basics?
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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im a car-impaired berkeleyan who'd very much like to get to Basics, & i was
wondering if anyone in this area could offer a ride...i could also meet 
people at some pre-established point in SF & go from there since that's 
prolly most convenient for SF residents


i can split gas costs, etc...but if someone has extra car room, it would be
most appreciated.

danke,
jo

PS. you can e-mail to vampyre@uclink.berkeley.edu

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep  3 20:04:12 1993
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From: howardb@enlil.premenos.sf.ca.us (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309040302.AA66870@enlil.premenos.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Massive culture
To: chinacat@netcom.com (J. Petersen)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 20:02:17 -0800 (PDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309040145.AA27678@netcom4.netcom.com> from "J. Petersen" at Sep 3, 93 06:45:10 pm
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> 
> 
> 
> > I've heard enough negative things about it (a lot from the flyer
> > itself, actually) that I'm going to avoid it at all costs. 
> 
> Like what were some of the bad things you heard? I was planning on
> going, just to see how the whole thing went down... but other
> considerations have intervened. My attitude towards the flyer
> was 'hmm, interesteing. I'll bet this won't come off quite like
> they're hoping for, but it's worth checking out for $20'. Of
> course I've had misgivings and doubts floating around in my
> head... but what are the negative things you heard? Personally
> I didn't like the promises of extra-stringent security and
> searches...
> 


There was that, plus the fact that it looks like a guaranteed bust,
plus the uncertainty that it will even go off at all, plus I have this
fear of a vibeless, attitudinal event...  I also fear friction between
the different elements there.  I'm prolly being a fuddy duddy though.
It may be great.

> Still, it's an interesting concept. Like taking Lollapalozza
> one step further. 

Um, I don't know if i'd want to take lollapalooza one step further.
The one I was at was pretty disappointing in the unity area.

>			I would think that anyone trying to unite
> disparate elements of the music scene deserves at least a
> chance to show their stuff, rather than dismissing the event
> before it's even happened!
> 

No doubt.  Have fun!  I just am not willing to risk $20 and a ride to
livermore on the chance that this thing will be cool.  I can have a
better chance of a good time in the city for far less hassle/$$$.

Sorry to sound pessimistic.  

-H-




From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep  4 00:02:09 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1993 00:02:02 -0700
In-Reply-To: chinacat@netcom.com (J. Petersen)
       "Re: Massive culture" (Sep  3,  6:45pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: chinacat@netcom.com (J. Petersen), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Massive culture
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Sep 3,  6:45pm, you proclaimed:
} 
} > I've heard enough negative things about it (a lot from the flyer
} > itself, actually) that I'm going to avoid it at all costs. 
} 
} Still, it's an interesting concept. Like taking Lollapalozza
} one step further. I would think that anyone trying to unite
} disparate elements of the music scene deserves at least a
} chance to show their stuff, rather than dismissing the event
} before it's even happened!

Exactly, touche', couldn't have said it better.  The evolution of the scene
is bound to include large-scale events like this; and instead of condemning
them automatically we should look to see if there's anything good we can 
dredge out of this.  

Maybe I feel a lot better about this now that they pulled its liquor license :)

	Brian

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep  4 08:27:40 1993
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Message-Id: <9309041527.AA06344@netcom.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
X-Sender: jsl@netcom.com (Unverified)
Subject: Whatcha gonna do? chill? non!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

This weekend has got to be the weekend of "Well, we tried...".
First the "Massive Confusion" had permits, then lost them, then got them
back.  KQED talked about it.  And I talked to a couple of DJ's about it...
If you want a 15-- event (read "all ages") massive culture is a best bet. 
My morbid curiosity asks (in the back of me head) "How many of the people
on the list will attend this 'all ages, multi-cutural' extravaganza?". 
from the tepid responses the party is getting on the list I would say,
NONE.  Not that I blame anyone mind you, just found it curious.

In any case I ain't goin' to that Circus.  The LAST thing I want to see is
a bunch of teenagers going "yo homie, sup..." or "yo <statement>...".
Arrgh!...

So what the hell esle is up?  BASICS that's what...I guess I'll go to that.
 Ingest some mind-altering stuff.  Hang with a few friends.  Lament about
the ugliness....get into the music.  Tony, Josh, & Jeno are enough to get
me out of the house...Although I generally have not liked the crowd at
BASICS as much as I did in the beginning, they have generally been pretty
cool parties.  Martin does a good job, and the DJ's usually fuck it up. 
Good to go.

The price ain't right?  Wrong.

I talked to P today about the rise in the prices of Boogie.  The $5 is to
cover the additional sound that they put in the dark room.  They are
renting it from JK and $4 would not cover it the cost of the sound so they
raised it 1 buck.  Also the addtl dollar will buy much more than a sound
system.  They will be having, on a more regular basis, special guests. 
That's all I can say for now, but rest assured, Boogie will remain a cool
space for quite awhile with the new sound and the special guests.

I still have problems with the price though, but it won't stop me from
going...at least this week ;)

Peace...
John


================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep  4 08:51:24 1993
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From: wicked@netcom.com
Message-Id: <9309041551.AA13498@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Whatcha gonna do? chill? non!
To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 93 8:51:37 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309041527.AA06344@netcom.netcom.com>; from "John S. Lee" at Sep 4, 93 8:27 am
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> So what the hell esle is up?  BASICS that's what...I guess I'll go to
that. > Ingest some mind-altering stuff.  Hang with a few friends.  Lament
about > the ugliness....get into the music.  Tony, Josh, & Jeno are enough
to get me out of the house....

 	Jeno is NOT playing at BASICS.







From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep  4 09:01:34 1993
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From: "Atherton, Darren" <datherton@ea.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: animating to music
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 93 09:01:00 PDT
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Encoding: 13 TEXT
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Greetings,
     My name is Arthur Koch and I am an animator who is very
interetsted in animating to music. Can anyone refer me to people
or products that would facilitate creating graphics that move
to a rhythm or syncing animations to light shows. I'm interested
in anything related to combining graphics with music.

My internet address is akoch@ea.com      
                                                             Hope to hear
from someone!

                                                                            
Art

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep  4 12:15:36 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Help!
From: mcorwine@comtch.computech.spk.wa.us
Reply-To: mcorwine@comtch.computech.spk.wa.us
Message-Id: <2Xa78B1w165w@comtch.computech.spk.wa.us>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 93 07:18:48 PDT
Organization: CompuTech Spokane, Washington
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

It's getting EVIL in here!  Not just a bit unconfortable or moody, it is 
EVIL here.... knock it off!

slid

..................................................................
.matt j. corwine..................................................
...............................the atonal project....509.921.0437.
..................................................................
e15210valleywayVeradaleWA99037....................................

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep  4 12:40:38 1993
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From: vampyre@uclink.berkeley.edu
Message-Id: <9309041935.AA00172@uclink.berkeley.edu>
Subject: basics/fluid groove 
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1993 12:35:21 -0700 (PDT)
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

this is basically an addendum to my last mesg...
if there's anyone who'd be able to give me a ride to 
Fluid Groove tomorrow night (and/or basics tonight),
i will bless you, your children & your children's children....

ahem...yes, well, anyway...let me know if it would be possible.


merci beaucoup,
jo

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep  4 17:00:43 1993
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From: wicked@netcom.com
Message-Id: <9309050000.AA26689@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Rhythm at Townsends
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 93 17:00:08 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	Hi,
	   just to remind everyone that Rhythm happens every week at
Townsends in San Francisco, 10:30 - 7:00 am.  A Mixed gay environment
that is a veritable melting pot of every color and creed. Featuring Neon
Leon, Markie Mark, and Jan Cooley. 

	Remember Carefree  -   Well this is part II


	See ya there, 
			Markie  !)

 -- 

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep  4 17:44:14 1993
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Date: Sat, 4 Sep 93 17:44:24 -0700
Message-Id: <9309050044.AA20665@netcom.netcom.com>
To: wicked@netcom.com
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: Rhythm at Townsends
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>        Hi,
>           just to remind everyone that Rhythm happens every week at
>Townsends in San Francisco, 10:30 - 7:00 am.  A Mixed gay environment
>that is a veritable melting pot of every color and creed. Featuring Neon
>Leon, Markie Mark, and Jan Cooley. 
>
>        Remember Carefree  -   Well this is part II
>
>
>        See ya there, 
>                        Markie  !)
>
> -- 

Uh, Markie, what DAY does it go on...Fri.? Sat.?  Sun.? ;)

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep  5 11:21:44 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Odd things a'happenin.
From: mcorwine@comtch.iea.com
Reply-To: mcorwine@comtch.iea.com
Message-Id: <ai3e0B2w165w@comtch.iea.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 93 11:28:33 PDT
Organization: CompuTech Spokane, Washington
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Well, you've been treated to a message I sent a month ago when the flames 
werflowing freely here... enjoy...


--
mcorwine@comtch.iea.com (Matt Corwine)
IEAx for lack of a better name... (509) 624-0744

From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep  5 17:57:17 1993
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From: wicked@netcom.com
Message-Id: <9309060057.AA25196@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rhythm at Townsends
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 93 17:57:33 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9309050044.AA20665@netcom.netcom.com>; from "John S. Lee" at Sep 4, 93 5:44 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	Yes folks it does happen on Saturdays. Good to see some response
out there. Just curious to see if any 'unification' included the Gay
Community. And talking of Come-Unity I didn't see any mention of any
'Gay" promotors or events on the back of the first flier (April Event)!
Oh well so much for House music starting in Gay clubs.

	Later's
		Markie  !)
 -- 

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 11:09:26 1993
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 11:11:08 -0800
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Subject: Waaaa!!!!!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I'm so, well.. bummed that I didn't make it to Fluid Groove.
Two sfravers, ..promised to give me a ride but  --- well
they never showed up.. I heard it was great!! (sob)
 Oh well,maybye next time..
A good lesson,_never to depend on others_  !!    (sniff!)

-Chris.
-
Chris Beaumont
ccat@netcom.com
ccat@casa.stanford.edu


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 16:24:59 1993
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To: datherton@ea.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: animating to music
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	I have a friend that may be interested in working with you. They
are designing what can only be described as a Chaos Chamber. It's pretty 
intense stuff and involves quite a bit of multi-media. I'm not really 
involved with the project but if you give me your phone#  i'll be happy
to pass it along for you. ( He's not on the net ) It's pretty serious
though, they have like 16 PhD's working on it currently...

					peace,
			 		   -z

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 16:49:42 1993
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Reply-To: rbryant@drwoodbury.win.net (Rodney Craig Bryant)
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Cc: president@whitehouse.gov
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 17:13.10.39
Subject: Right-to-Healthcare Constitutional Amendment NOW
From: rbryant@drwoodbury.win.net (Rodney Craig Bryant)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Let's cut thru the underbrush and the "healthcare debate."  Hey,
EVERYBODY's for healthcare, etc.  Proposed:  a consitituional
amendment recognizing healthcare as a RIGHT of American persons. 
It should be referenced loosely to the "rights" already in our
mythos, to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.  (So that
if not staying alive and accepting enforced healthcare is your way
of exercising LIBERTY and PURSUING HAPPINESS, that's okay, you're
constitutional too.)

Who in their right mind (well....make that just WHO....) would or
could oppose a constitutional amendment that recognizes as a right
what everybody except insurance companies and medical profiteers
already THINKS is a right? 


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 18:07:53 1993
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 18:08:08 -0700
From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309070108.AA08694@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Weekend report...  T'was wonderful
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Weekend rave report...

   After attending ConFrancisco Sci-fi convention,   me and a couple friend
from Pennsylvania (Who has never been to a rave before),  headed out to
Basics.    We've heard somewhat bad reports on Masssive Culture,  and 
runours that it was cancelled,  then was actually going to happen.  We
didn;t want to sit in the car for 7 hours driving out to the Burning Man
thang,  so we opted for Basics.    GOOD CHOICE!!,  thanx to those
enlightened folks who advised us on the best one to go to..

  Will be looking forward to reports from those that went.  Basics was 
really GREAT!  especially the outdoors chill out area,  where I can 
ocassionally escape the smoke,  and cool down after dancing.    I saw
the usual crowd there.   As usual,  towards the end,  I pulled out
all the stoppers and got totally wild.   My friends from Pa.  really
dug it,  and now are true total dedicated ravers,  and hope to plug
into the rave scene out PA.  way.   Andy will probably request to 
get on sfraves.   Judy,  his wife was totally wild and almost
un-controllable,  and digging it so much...  Really made me happy to
see her having so much fun.

  After that,  we boogied over to "Boogie" for our traditional coffee
pancakes,  and more dancing.    We brough along "Radion" the Tarot card
reader dude,  and he was tearing up the dance floor over at Boogie.

  Later that afternoon we got word that there was to be a gathering
in GG park,  so we all go over there.   After getting there about 12:30,
we got word that the permits were revoked because the park rangers
didn't want the grass dug up because of the rain.    There was NO rain,
so we all hung out in the park,  gathered around a boom-box,  doing
SOME dancing,   but I was mostly interested in doing my exercises,  yoga,
and relaxing.    I knew that I would have little sleep between Basics
and Deep space nine.

  That evening,  Radion wanted me, Andy and Judy to attend a Pagen Ritual
which I thought was pretty interesting,  very relaxing and I enjoyed myself
drumming and dancing.   Later that evening,  me and Radion headed over to DS-9.

  My freinds went back to Mill valley to my place,  totally hosed and worn
out.    But I was raring to go for another all-nighter (2nd night without
sleep).    I over heard people talking about taking bets as to whether or
not I would show up.   I did....

  Wonderful place,  really comfy chill out area,  done up very nicely 
with the black lights,  foourenscent paint and all.    BUT!!  the PIGS 
came in at about 3 am and shut the place down ... BUMMER!!  and Carlos 
never got to spin.    I was really looking forward to dancing his long 
sets.   So if anyone out there knows why the PIGS shut the place down,
I would really like to know.    The music was GREAT!! dispite the 
interruptions caused by the sound system over-loading the circuit
breakers.    Perhaps that was the reason,   as I saw fire trucks,
pigs,  and massive traffic jam on Columbus St when we left.    Other
people wanted to meet up with us later,  but the pigs wouldn't let us
stay there and find our friends.    Later on, we called the Fluid
Groove info number,   but couldn't find it,  because the recording
was hard to follow,  way too fast to jot down,   but when we got
to the Exploratorium parking lot,  we looked around,  met others also
looking,   but never found it.    Did it come off at that place?

  So,  we left for Mill Valley and called it a night....   WONDERFUL
WEEKEND...

Cheers...

CC

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 18:07:58 1993
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 18:03:18 -0700
From: president@whitehouse.gov
Message-Id: <199309070103.SAA11417@leland.Stanford.EDU>
X-Authentication-Warning: leland.Stanford.EDU: Host techno.Stanford.EDU didn't use HELO protocol
Subject: Re: Right-to-Healthcare Constitutional Amendment NOW
Apparently-To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Although we must press ahead with reforms in the area of health care, I must
regretfully ask to be taken off the SFRaves list.  I'm way out here on the 
other side of this great country of ours, and even though I had a lot of fun
at Basics and Fluid Grooves, I can only afford to spend so much time reading
email.  Rec.music.industrial and rec.music.bluegrass already take up much of
my morning debriefing time.  Thanks, and God bless.

	Bill

p.s. -  leave Chelsea on the list though, she's thinking of going to Berkeley.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 18:32:23 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Right-to-Healthcare Constitutional Amendment NOW
From: inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com (Inhuman)
Comments: Feed Your Head
Message-Id: <6XgH0B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 93 21:35:40 EDT
In-Reply-To: <199309070103.SAA11417@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Ah ha.... The joys of fakemail.


Michael                 |  groovin' in the chocolate city!
(inhuman@phantom.com)   |  <PGP Key Available Upon Request>

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 19:05:51 1993
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 19:05:51 -0700
From: Laura La Gassa <laura@soda.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <9309070205.AA12480@soda.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Fluid Grooviness!!!!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


East Coast met West Coast (and a bit of the interior) last night at 
Fluid Grooves.  Bryce's location was good, I'm not going to say exactly
where it was 'cause they're going to use it again in a few months.

Anyway, the sound truck arrived a tiny bit after midnight, and Ethan
and company got things set up pretty quickly.  We had a scare when a
police car turned up, and kept quiet for a while.  Bryce and Ethan went
to talk to the cop, and all was well . . . Lee An got started about 1.00 am,
but as this was the *first* public usage of the Sound Vision system, it took
a few minutes to work out some set-up glitches.  After that Lee went to
town, and the sound system was WONDERFUL.  Big full CLEAR sound, lots of
"feeling" without massive ear-splitting volume.  It was a very good 
combination.

I spun after Lee, and of the 40 or so people at the party about half 
danced to my fave hardcore and hard trance tracks around a fire that
Ethan had set.  It really felt good to play exactly what I wanted, and to
see people enjoying it even though it was so different.  The rest of the
party was sitting talking around a second fire, or walking along the beach
enjoying the not-completely-freezing night.

When I got done SLiP (Ed) got started and made a bunch of people very happy
and tranced-out with his collection of beautifully phat trancey tracks.
During Ed's set Brian and Bryce went to the Safeway and bought us all 
breakfast -- assorted muffins and orange juice.  It was just what a lot
of us needed to keep going.  When Ed was finished my legs hurt from dancing
so long in the sand, but it was MORE than worth it being out doors and
dancing by the fire.  He closed with "Electric Dreams," and it was just so
upbeat and happy that I ran around hugging everyone who was dancing.

Pete Ashdown took over, and played a mix of techno, industrial, ambient,
cyberfunk, and who knows what else.  His set was neat in that it had a lot
of restful parts followed by very energetic oh-my-god-I-gotta-dance parts.
The sun came up during his set (well, it was foggy so we never got any
real sunrise), and at one point about 8 people were standing on the rocks
right along the shore dancing and staring out at the Bay.

Pete finished up at 7.00 am, and then Jon Drukman took to the tables.  Around
this time two seals swam very close to the shore, and stuck their heads
way out of the water to look around at what was going on.  A lot of people
were still dancing, or at least standing up and grooving to the beats.

At about 7.15 the cops came by again and apparantly suggested that it was time
for us to close up shop.  The cop also thanked us in that they did not receive
a single complaint all night from our party.

As we were breaking down a lot of joggers came by our site.  They weren't
too thrilled with the fact that we had the tables in the way of their
jogging path, and one even called us a bunch of motherfuckers.  I think
that guy needs to jog a LONG way to get out a lot of frustrations, no? :-)
Many of us then headed to breakfast, and after espresso, crepes, and eggs
many huggy goodbyes were said and Brian, Jo, and I headed back to Berkeley.

I'd like to thank Lee Fogel for being the seed that got this party started.
He and I were talking in email many weeks ago about "where's the techno" in
San Francisco, and from that I got the idea to approach Bryce and Brian about
throwing a renegade while I was out.  Bryce took the helm from there, and 
put together a party that really worked.  Ethan's sound system was wonderful,
and I'm honored to have been part of the crew that gave it its maiden
voyage.  I'd also like to thank everyone who came, especially Jo who danced
like a REAL Brooklyn Bass-Bin Worshiping girl during the hardcore parts, her 
enthusiasm helped to make me feel like I was doing right by you all.  

But most of all, I thank everyone who came and danced and smiled and
hugged me.  I'd been feeling sort of ambivalent about San Francisco all week,
but you all made me feel like I can be part of the family here if I choose
to be.  No, I'm not moving out soon . . . but I will be back for a visit
in mid-October.  

Love and community,

Laura

P.S.  Thanks for making me promise to come visit San Francisco, Brian.  I
love you!

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 19:40:19 1993
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 19:40:15 -0700
Message-Id: <9309070240.AA23315@am.ucsc.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: party in Santa Cruz
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


	On Tues, Sept 7th TranceZenDance is throwing a promotional party in
Santa Cruz. The warehous space has not been used before. Djs are to include
Wool, Pasta from Seattle, Alonzo and Mehlaan.
			call (408) 429-9286 for NFO


				seeya there!
					-z


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 21:26:10 1993
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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Message-Id: <9309070426.AA12573@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re:  Fluid Grooviness!!!!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 21:26:25 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Well, Laura gave a very good description of Fluid Grooves, so I won't recap but
I wanted to congratulate Bryce and Ethan on one of the best parties I have been
to in AGES! I can't wait for another event (I WILL come up from LA for it!).

It was also very nice to meet our out-of-town visitors: Ed, Eileen, and Pete.

Only bummer: the police asking us to leave 3 songs into Jon's set...:(

See you all on Thursday!


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
                                Tamara Palmer
                              trance@netcom.com
                           You are in...THE LIGHT!
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep  6 23:50:55 1993
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From: hyland@netcom.com (Tim Hyland)
Message-Id: <9309070651.AA16237@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rhythm at Townsends
To: wicked@netcom.com
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 93 23:51:09 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF Raves List)
In-Reply-To: <9309050000.AA26689@netcom4.netcom.com>; from "wicked@netcom.com" at Sep 4, 93 5:00 pm
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Hi Markie, thanks for posting the note about Rhythm.  Don't know why
I'm thanking you, though.  Maybe it's because being a gay raver I
often have to make a choice each evening before going dancing.  Do I
want to go to a rave?  Or do I want to go to a gay club?  It's rare
that an event will fit both categories, but Care*Free in the early
months sure did.  And Rhythm is close.  (The End Up on Sunday
afternoons is a good bet, too, but I digress.)

I guess posts like yours help promote interaction between the two
communities (ravers and gay club kids) so that (hopefully) someday I
won't have to make this kind of decision.  I'm quite comfortable at
most raves, but many of my club-kid friends aren't.

Now, as for Rhythm being Care*Free -- The Sequel, I don't know if I
quite agree with that.  I was at the first couple nights of both
clubs.  Care*Free really felt like a weekly rave thrown by and for
queer and queer-friendly ravers.  It was March of 92, just a couple
months after the big Toon Town craze at Townsend and Quartknee was the
first person to tell me about it.  It kept that rave-y feel for a
couple months until it was "discovered" by the club kids.  After the
gargantuan party Care*Free had the weekend of gay pride that June, it
just wasn't the same any more.

Rhythm, on the other hand, feels like a gay club that quite a few
queer-friendly people come to later in the evening (post-last-call).
The distinction I'm making is probably based in the notion that Rhythm
is being promoted by a person (David?) who, from reports I've heard,
is rooted squarely in the gay club mind-set.  It's only been around
for a couple of weeks, so we'll see how it turns out.

For what it's worth, thanks again Markie.  And I'll see you at Rhythm
next week.

Share and Enjoy,

Tim

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 00:03:17 1993
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From: Fred Heutte <phred@well.sf.ca.us>
To: laura@soda.berkeley.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  Fluid Grooviness!!!!
Message-Id: <93Sep7.000242pdt.14068-4@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Tue, 7 Sep 1993 00:02:37 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I'm sorry I had to miss Fluid Groove, but it sounds like it was a successful
weekend overall for net.raving -- FreeVibe in Seattle, co-produced by our
own Tigger (glenn_fajardo@aldus.com) went off BIGtime in a really nice
rural setting in Issaquah, east of Seattle, in a wooded ravine.  The cops
came, the cops hung around, and the cops left with smiles on their faces,
as 400 ravers including a lot of newbies did our rockin' to a groovee beat.
Sunrise found me in a comfortable spot up in the old growth on the hillside,
amazed once again that this kind of electronically-derived music sounds so
great in the outdoors. Especially good sets from DJs Czech (Vancouver) and
Shocka (Portland).  We had a foggy morning, which only added to the ambience,
making a neat counterpoint to the Get Down3/Get Wicked scene at Sonoma
County Fairgrounds I got off on so much at the end of May.  Finally we
headed back to Glenn's place for an informal after-party that turned into
all day lazing around listening to all kinds of music.

I took the bus back to Portland and dropped in for a while at Mindscape,
an all-nighter at the Depot downtown here.  The advantages: its a three
block walk from my office.  Otherwise, it wasn't much to write to the
world about -- derivative, monochromatic techno (as opposed to fun,
varied, pumping techno) and an OK but fairly vibeless crowd.  The scene
in Portland still awaits its Renaissance . . .


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 09:41:40 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 09:42:39 -0800
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From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie Lawrence)
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Subject: lost mail
Content-Length: 176
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Howdy all-
Just wanted to let everyone know I lost all my mail recieved between friday
and this morning. If anyone sent anything of relevence, please resend it.

thanks
jamie


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 09:47:41 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 93 09:45:39 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: weekend update
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

i was going to DJ an early morning slot at MESS, so i slept in friday
night, waking up at 5 AM.  checked the phone message which said "we're
continuing in a new location..."  i feared that the crowd would be
small, and indeed it was.  momentum seemed to be pretty much gone, and
everyone vanished 10 mins into my set.  so i packed it up and went
home.  i don't know how the party was up to that point, obviously.  it
was quite cold in the backup location, and people seemed more into
huddling under blankets than dancing.

so then i missed basics cos i had been hosting a party at my house and
i was really bombed from that...

i was beginning to think that my whole long weekend would be thrown in
the toilet when i heard that fluid groove was happening not ten
minutes from my house!  so i bopped over there, only to get totally
confused by the directions - apparently i wasn't the only one, given
other messages on sfraves this morning.  fortunately, i ran into pete
ashdown who showed me the One True Path to the party :)

and what a party!  vibe to spare, boomin' massive sound system (ethan
is god's personal sound system guy, btw) and a *beautiful* location.
Lee, Laura & Ed all did their best; I finally got to hear the
legendary XDZebra Twin CD attack, and i even got to play 4 records
before the cops suggested (quite politely) that we pull the plug.

too bad, cos the sun was coming up and there was a marvelous view of
the golden gate bridge, top shrouded in fog.  i think the party could
have continued for another hour or so without a hitch.  oh well,
there's always next time!

i left with a big dopey smile on my face and that warm glow inside
that you only get from a truly spiritual encounter.  once again i'm
reminded why i put with the all the bad stuff in the rave scene - cos
the good stuff more than makes up for it.

big smiles to all involved, and an extra special thanks to tamara for
risking life & limb to score my record crates at 6 AM...

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always note the sequencer - this will never let us down.

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 10:16:12 1993
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From: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Message-Id: <9309071716.AA20760@slack>
Subject: Groovin' the Fluid
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF Raves)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 11:16:14 -0600 (MDT)
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I had to go to meet Carlos and Garth to give them their advances at an event
on Columbus.  I'm not sure what it was, but it was fairly cool.  The high end
of the sound disappeared at around midnight, so we left right after that.
There was one track the DJ who played before this happened did that I MUST
HAVE.  It sounds like a drum line or a drum line of plastic bucket drummers,
but it is LOUD.  Any ideas?  Anyway, after that was out of the way, we went
back to my brother's apartment and loaded up my gear.  We then drove around in
touristy confusion until we found the back of the Exploratorium.  I was amused
to get out of the car to find someone (I believe it was Betsy) asking US how
to get to the beach.

Grant and I arrived at the site hearing nothing.  We wandered all over trying
to find it, but kept heading in the general direction.  Eventually we found a
small group of people huddled around turntables and a sound system.  Bryce was
busily engaged talking to an officer.  Amazingly enough, he reasoned with him
and Fluid Grooves was on!

Lee did a cool set, very much in a SF tip.  Then Laura grabbed the tables.
I'd asked her before how hardcore has gone over in SF, and she said she hadn't
done any, but was planning to tonight.  She spun some good stuff, but after
listening to Drukman bitch about the BPMs for an hour, I'm glad she was the
guinea pig.  If I was going to play any hardcore that night, the stuff I would
have dropped would have left several seals and a ton of fish floating in the
bay.  Most of my "hardcore" sounds like Skinny Puppy over a machine gun 4/4.
Ed then took the tables and played some very nice hard trance.  Which
effectively nixed hard trance from my set as well.  I was getting rather
nervous as to what exactly I was going to play.

I went on at about 5:15 and started some funky junk.  There were a couple of
screw-ups in the first half hour (of course, if you didn't notice them, I'm
not going to point them out to you).  Let's just say that using the line/phono
switch to go between the turntable and the CD didn't work as well as I had
planned.  When Ethan came over and pushed down the main volume on a track I
was playing, I realized it was time to go a little bit softer, even though I
had never really ventured beyond 130 bpm.  It was really satisfying to throw
down "Quest" and have Ethan come back and pull the sliders up.  After that
point, I was completely comfortable in the situation and moved through one of
my best sets ever. 

Even though there was a cloud cover, the sunrise was still spectacular.  It
was really fabulous to be behind everyone while they pulsed on the rocks
watching the bay light up.

I was disappointed to see Jon gone from the crowd in the middle of my set.
When he returned with two crates of records, it made it all worth it.  Being
able to hand the baton to Jon was the best possible way I could have thought
of ending my first set in SF.  I'm glad he was prompted to go and grab his
music.  Too bad things had to stop just as he started to move.

Thanks to everyone for the kind comments and warmth I experienced.  I've
recently been really down on the scene here with not many good experiences
while DJing.  Fluid Groove really recharged my batteries.  Say the word on the
next event and I'm down there again (although I'm definitely flying).  Being
able to illuminate the Golden Gate bridge is an experience I will not soon
forget.

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 10:55:55 1993
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From: nrg@netcom.com (Ethan I. Miller)
Message-Id: <9309071756.AA08963@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Fluid Groove
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 93 10:56:11 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Wow What a Night! Fluid Groove fully came off... Many, many thanks to
everyone involved: djs, dancers, pelicans, seals, friendly cops (including
MPs), the list is endless, but especially Bryce for putting a whole lot of
time, energy and money into a great endeavor. Truly a huge payoff on a
whole lot of Positive Energy :)

The Music Was Great! What a nice alternative to our usual SF fare. Lots of
hard trance in a variety of flavors; I truly enjoyed the east coast sound
exemplified by great sets from Laura and Ed (SLiP); XDZebra was killer,
really interesting mix of music from airy slow stuff at dawn to driving,
almost rock and rolly house, he really covers a lot of ground. Lee An
started off the night with an awesome trancy set; Lee you really need to be
headlining; everyone's missing out... which is exactly how I feel about Jon
Drukman as well (Hi Jon) the friendly cops put a quick end to the beginning
of his set which was sounding truly phenomenal. Gold Star to Jon for
putting out the effort despite it being 6am at the time...

Maiden Voyage for my new system was a resounding success if I do say so
myself. To me, a killer sound system is one where rather than feeling like
you're hearing a speaker (or speakers), the air just fills and becomes
saturated with sound, feels kind of liquidy. I think we definitely got
there...with power to spare; it was as loud as any of us wanted it and it
wasn't maxed out!   !) As a note, I wouldn't have got this system if
sfraves didn't exist, so in many ways I think of it as the sfr system; lets
make sure and put it to good use spreading the vibe! Too, I'm calling it
and myself *Sound Vision* so keep your eyes open for:
  Audio by Sound Vision...

Also, myself and Mark Norby from Tilt-a-Whirl are throwing the first of a
series of parties called *Home* on Saturday September 25th. Synergy will be
providing main visuals, confirmed djs are:
  Markie
  Simon (UK)
  Jon Williams
  DRC (YSH)
  Galen
  Jordan (fresno)
This will be a full-scale event in San Francisco; please mark your
calendars and come on out and give us your support, lord knows we need it!
:)

once again, many thanks for a great weekend!
peace always
ethan

*******************************************************************************
*    ethan miller                     nrg                     415.826.6137    *
*                            'one unbroken whole'                             *
*                               nrg@netcom.com                                *
*******************************************************************************
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 11:00:17 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309071746.AA20672@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: MESS 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Anyone know how the MESS party went down Friday night.  I went to the
location at Aquatic park, danced and chilled for about 1/2 hour, including
with these two homeless ravers out from the mid-west who had been camping
in the bushes where the party was set up.  They had partied and fallen 
asleep when they saw red flashing lights.  Thinking it was cops, they 
snuck through the bushes to spy on what was happening, thinking they might
get busted for camping there, and lo and behold the sound system came on.
Needless to say they were pleasantly surpised.  After about a 1/2 hour the
cops came and told us to shut down.  I told the organizers about the Pt.
Isabel spot that I've been wanting to test, just in case they didn't have
any back-up spots and they decided to go there but I had to get up early
the next day and knew if I went, I'd get trapped their all night so went
home and called it a night.  Does anyone know how or if the party went to
Pt. Isabel?

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 11:06:08 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 11:01:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Grant <tgrant@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Rhythm at Townsends
To: Tim Hyland <hyland@netcom.com>
Cc: wicked@netcom.com, SF Raves List <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <9309070651.AA16237@netcom4.netcom.com>
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


On the gay/straight mix topic:

Check out Corduroy City.  It's being promoted by two great people, each of
whom is well established in their respective scenes:
Stephanie from Together (a weekly "rave" type event)
and Sean from Product (a weekly gay event)

[Just to be clear, I'm not saying that these two are the "main" promoters
of these clubs-- just high-ranking board members  ;)  ]

It has been their intention from the beginning to bring these two crowds
together and so far I think they're doing a great job.

	Tony

/--------------------------------------------------------------\
|  Tony Grant          tgrant@netcom.com       s y n e r g y   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------/



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 11:32:36 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309071803.AA26261@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, wicked@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Rhythm at Townsends
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


 just out of curiosity, what events are currently catering to
gay and/or gay-positive clientele.  I saw a flyer for a nude rave
a while back, and that was (according to a friend) a  "gay" rave...
it *is* interesting that an originally black gay art form (house
music) has become predominantly white (or perhaps non-black?) &
straight.

where was the first rave held?  what was it called?  were the promoters
gay or straight (or both?)  where is our history? 


*

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 11:42:11 1993
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From: Dana Watanabe <dwatanab@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Message-Id: <199309071842.AA14648@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Subject: last weeekend
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers list)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 93 11:42:03 PDT
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okay so im stupid
i was really sick on wednesday and i wasnt feelign much better on friday
when i took off for SF, but i wanted to get to fluid grooves on sunday
so...

being even stupider when i get to SF i say, lets go to MESS
which was a journey in and of itself and scared my friends who took me up
cuz i was now wandering around with a sleeping bag and my stuff
hopign to find some party 

finally finding it, i danced for a bit and then realized i was way too
sick to dance and i should have just gone to the house wiht them
and slept
oh well so i curl up on the parking lot between two cars that provide wind
protection and listen to some good music
(the crowd noticeably going wild over UVC and Freak Chakra)
and then jon D showed up and played a bit but it was just too damn cold
he dropped me an andy off outside streetlight records where inside
was a key to a nice warm apt
after wanderign around and hiking a bit and sleeping
on the hill above that we managed to get the guy who was opening streetlight
to give us the key to said apt (its a friend of andys who left the key for him,
not jsut a key lying around for people to use :)
so i crashed there and then went record shopping and wandered all around SF
and came abck the apt to crash again to get up and catch the bus to
jon and mike and jeffs... which was fun but i was really out of it
and felt god awful ahving to meet people like that
except that wonderful woman from down under who made me tea and stuff

i went back to susie's to crash after much begging and pleading to go somewhere
and sunday i went to GG Park and got really lost looking for a party that wasnt
happening adn ran into someone else looking for said party and
we hung out and talked about stuff and he doesnt like the elmo peoples
and we ran into some of his freinds and they were waiting for someone
to pick them up and i gave them money to go make a phone call
and we got picked up after trying to catch a bus and seeign said people
and then we went over to the party at some guys house on 8th street
and i was feeling worse so i went back to sussies and slept a lot
and it seemed like the plan was to go to fluid grooves
but it just didnt happen

thanks to Susie though for giving me a place to stay and Jon for the ride
from Pt Isabel to somewhere

 ,
dana

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 13:11:13 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Leaving for SF.
From: mcorwine@comtch.iea.com
Reply-To: mcorwine@comtch.iea.com
Message-Id: <qVwi0B1w165w@comtch.iea.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 93 13:17:25 PDT
Organization: CompuTech Spokane, Washington
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I'm hitting the road in a couple hours for Olympia, then down to SF by 
the next weekend... Hopefully I will be able to check out some decent 
events down there and possibly get in touch with some SFraves while down 
there... I have heard wonderful things about the SF scene and hope to 
experience it firsthand when there.  I may be able to check my mail while 
I'm out, but not likely... I don't know how I'll find anyone, aybe just 
put my ear to the ground and listen or something... Anyway, if you see a 
short guy with black hair and a shirt w/the periodic table notation for 
Krypton anywhere, yell Slid and see if he raises his head.  Later.


--
mcorwine@comtch.iea.com (Matt Corwine)
IEAx for lack of a better name... (509) 624-0744

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 13:13:12 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: root@Gregor.Mosheh.Net (Gregor Mosheh, Administrator)
X-Sender: root@Gregor.Mosheh.Net (Unverified)
Subject: DAMN!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

That last one I sent WAS supposed to be an address for a petition. The
petition sounds cool: a reorganization of the War On (some) Drugs. I'll see
if I can find it again and repost it.

                 hazrat Gregor Mosheh
    4301-B Ashland Terrace Davis, CA 95616  (916) 757-7319                 
     
   gmosheh@nyx.cs.du.edu      mosheh@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
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mQBPAixza/EAAAEB+gLVIWCGnJXQvBjUcCYX7N4Wf8fTNevzusIINA+ro+pavARl
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Finger gmosheh@nyx.cs.du.edu for more info on PGP and me. :)


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 14:46:40 1993
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To: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: FYI Re: "president@whitehouse.gov"
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 93 14:33:11 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom5.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


those of you sending messages to president@whitehouse.gov are probably
wasting your time:

|     1K-6K messages per day are being sent to 
| president@whitehouse.gov.  The host computer isn't at the White 
| House yet; a daily tape is delivered by Trusted Information 
| Systems Inc. (Glennwood, MD).  [Internet Letter, 10/93.]

What exactly are they waiting for w/r/t/ installing the "host computer" at
the white house? Oh, yeah, i forgot, they probably need 6-12 months for
"procurement" (aka palm-greasing, bribes, marketing lies and expensive
business dinners from various behemoth US computer manufacturers.)

-- Nihils Mayer.
   Babylon Systems, Inc.

PS: I wish I was in town for all the cool-sounding events that happened
this weekend (e.g. Fluid Groove) but alas, i'm in lovely (NOT!) southern
california instead. 

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 15:24:51 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 93 15:24:45 PDT
From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309072224.AA06082@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: fluid on the beach
Cc: jlf3@attmail.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


I was pretty psyched for Elmo's GGPark thing & Fluid Groove so I saved up
my energy for Sunday, passing on Basics which I feared would be a repeat
of last month's big-space/small-vibe affair.  It's certainly nice to have 
a variety of different flavored parties to choose from.

Elmo's day in Labor was aborted due to the threat of water breaking on us.  
This was especially a bummer since it turned out to be a fine day.  I can't 
help but to be a little worried about our Oct. 3rd event.  I went home where 
I got paged to spend the rest of the day emboiled in a major work crisis. 

By late evening I was psyched up again.  Both Fluid Groove and Deep Star 9
were gonna be 5 minutes from home.   Although FG was by far our 1st choice, 
we were a little concerned that it would be too cold or would get busted.  
I checked it out while Janie napped, getting there as Ethan sweet-talked 
the SFPD into giving us their blessing.  I guess not all cops are pigs. 

The weather was balmy, but not too cold, and with the fire and a friendly
vibe, there was plenty of warmth to keep things cozy.  Before retrieving 
Janie,  I stopped over at DS9.  The place seemed to be jumping at 2:15; 
10$ for Jeno, Garth, Dutch, Carlos on one floor, open tables on another.  
No ins&outs.  The people on line seemed vibeless, but not necessarily 
unfriendly.

We easily decided that Fluid Groove was the place to be, and for the rest 
of the morning it was like being in a dream.  Otherwordly music, 
fog-shrouded GG Bridge, blinking lighthouse, splashing waves, seagulls 
painting trails in the sky, and an overriding feeling of family.  There's a
rather beautiful Amorphous Androgynous song that Pete played around sunrise 
that will now have a special meaning for me.  We played it twice more at 
home while chilling in the afterglow.  

Thanks to Bryce & Ethan not just for making this happen, but also for the
*way* you guys made it happen.  Knowing that there are people like you
around reminds me that being a humanoid is not necessarily a bad 
thing.  Also thanks to our out-of-state visitors for bringing over some 
fresh energy.  There's a lot going on in the SF House scene, and it's often 
hard to predict the quality or flavor of a particular party.  But with a 
little perseverance, everyone can usually find the type of party that stll 
makes raving a special activity here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com
____________________________________________________________________________

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 15:27:28 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309072118.AA21282@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, uunet!ntmtv.com!hart@uunet.UU.NET,
        wicked@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Rhythm at Townsends
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I also wonder about rave history, Chris.  It may be one of those things that
we may never know the real story behind.  Were the first house party/raves
in England direct off shoots or copies of something going on in Chicago or
Detroit, or is that just where the music originated from?  Or was it an
innovation that English kids made using American music?  Was it an example
of parrallel evolution?

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 16:03:11 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 16:03:03 -0700
From: Derek Yu <derek@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-Id: <199309072303.AA09283@headcrash.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Basics
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



I did not have the chance to goto the last basics, but from  what
I heard, it was a big disappointment..
I did goto this Saturday's Basics and I had an amazing time..
I got there at 3AM and found the music a bit slow, but it really turned
up around 5AM..  It was really movin...
I was dancing so much that I did not get to check out the outdoor chill
out area.. I did not even know there was one...

the funniest thing that happened that night was some guy taking a shower in
the bathroom.  A bunch of us were waiting on line in the bathroom..  This
guy comes alone and asks us to step aside so he can take a shower..
guess he had to go to church on Sunday morning or something..

Overall- a good event.. it wa my first time at the space and it was setup well.
	I was told the last Basics was poorly ventilated..  I thought it was
	much improved this time..  Even though I had to take off my shirt, I
	was not dying from heat..


-Derek


,

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 16:57:28 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 93 16:57:36 -0700
From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309072357.AA28052@koko.csustan.edu>
To: derek@ocf.berkeley.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  Basics
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The outdoor area was cold and misty...did you check out the visuals inside under
the tent?? I just got a peak and it seemed pretty cool. Free water was a big+.

Did anyone see me out there( I was wearing orange florescent painted shoes with 
the Rasta beanie)?  I just missed the good music cause I had to cruz back to 
good old "Turdlock" at 4:00 and got home at 8:00 am after dropping off freinds.

Look for me or my shoes at AWAKEN...I am looking forward to meeting all of you 
someday soon (maybe in this RAVEDOM???) til then peace, love-joy, and happiness
to all.

HOSS (WISLBOY)

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 17:29:25 1993
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From: nrg@netcom.com (Ethan I. Miller)
Message-Id: <9309080029.AA17949@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Sale at Housewares
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 93 17:29:41 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Howdy gang I'm posting this as a favor for Perry at Housewares; he's
expecting his first kid in two weeks and could use some quick cash for
expenses. Consequently, he's having a huge sale. Everything (clothing that
is) is 20% percent off now through September 13. Housewares is located at
1322 Haight St. in SF, they can be reached at 415.252.1440.

see ya
ethan
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 18:01:54 1993
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From: milov@aol.com
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Message-Id: <9309072052.tn24660@aol.com>
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 93 20:52:41 EDT
Subject: info
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hi, do you have a list of other US raves or only SF
Thanks,
milov@aol.com

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 18:24:44 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 93 18:25:01 -0700
From: ccat@netcom.com (ccat)
Message-Id: <9309080125.AA28476@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Incredible T shirts..
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

  One neat thing they have at Housewares are those incredible
Space/Time T-shirts with the integral holographic coating..
Whoa!

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 18:28:32 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 18:20:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: dumb facts..
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9309071825.B4188-a100000@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

well i was looking up origins of street names and found two that have
become names of raves...so i thought i would share what i found...

(take from Louis K. Loewenstein, "Street Names of San Francisco")

MISSION ROCK "This street lies on the approach to the Mission Rock ship
terminal, named for the large rock in what was once called Mission Bay. 
(There was also a Mission Creek which fed into the Bay.)  All these places
take their name from the nearby Mission Dolores.

CHARTER OAK "Probably after a street of the same name in Hartford,
Connecticut, famous for the oak tree which once shaded it.  Legend has it
that Captain Joseph Wadsworth hid a Royal Charter in its trunk. This
document gave the residents a claim to a strip of land as wide as the
state itself-fifty miles--and on westward to the Pacific, cutting a stripe
across the continent.  The charter was hidden from Sir Edward Andros, who
attemped to seize it in 1767."

partyon....susie (:




From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 19:17:52 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 93 19:18:02 -0700
From: rox@netcom.com (Roxanna Stieber)
Message-Id: <9309080218.AA18119@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, dant@netcom.com
Subject: fluid groove
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 Got to Fluid Groove at around 2:00am to find Lee spinning. Beautiful 
location and the weather was balmy, a little foggy but pretty warm. It
was really a nice group of people, like family. I really enjoyed the
different types of music played and it was really nice to put faces
behind .net names. Too bad it had to end 4 songs into Jon's set. It was
especially nice that it was right in the city. Well not much more that
I can say that hasn't already been expressed by other posts. I just 
want to thank Ethan and Bryce for the great party and to the dj's, some
of whom came great distances, for the excellent music. It was really nice
to finally meet you Pete!

rox

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 19:33:53 1993
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To: magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Subject: Re: dumb facts..
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	hey don't forget the caliban homestead susie...
	a street called sharon.

	that's me, in number 12!

caliban


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep  7 23:25:29 1993
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 93 23:25:40 -0700
Message-Id: <9309080625.AA18946@netcom.netcom.com>
To: winston@lurnix.com (Mark Guthrie)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: Rhythm at Townsends
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>I also wonder about rave history, Chris.  It may be one of those things that
>we may never know the real story behind.  Were the first house party/raves
>in England direct off shoots or copies of something going on in Chicago or
>Detroit, or is that just where the music originated from?  Or was it an
>innovation that English kids made using American music?  Was it an example
>of parrallel evolution?
>
>-Mark


Make NO mistake Mark, the house scene started in Detroit/Chi-town.  New
York runs a close second (if not first by their estimates).  But it started
HERE in the US first.  What the folks from the UK did was take the shit to
a whole new level.  Introduced some hip electronics, and sound manipulation
etc.  It has ALWAYS had some basis in drugs, whether it be coke, rush,
booze, e, adam, or acid.  Once the English got ahold of it, and as it
spread across Europe it bounced it's ass back over here for a redux.  Now
innovation comes from all corners of the globe.  Detroit/Chicago/New
York/Miami are doing some hip shit technically, and have proven constant
producers of good stuff (not to take anything away from our local
boys/girls and European producers). England/Italy/Belguim are three
countries who have the mental shit.  At this point it is really a matter of
who has the vision, and the will, rather than the location.

In any case....
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 01:37:50 1993
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To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Cc: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Rave History (was Re: Rhythm at Townsends )
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 93 23:25:40 PDT."
             <9309080625.AA18946@netcom.netcom.com> 
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 93 01:38:03 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom5.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
>Make NO mistake Mark, the house scene started in Detroit/Chi-town.  New
>York runs a close second (if not first by their estimates).  But it started
>HERE in the US first.  What the folks from the UK did was take the shit to

Uh, that's an awfully america-centric view of things don't you think?

I assume we're talking about rave history here, and not just house
music history. I'd say there are alot more facets to what we currently
call "rave" than chicago house music. 

If you're going to talk about the scene, you'd better start going back
to reggae soundsystems in Jamaica back in the 60's with producer/DJ's
like Lee "Scratch" Perry taking the reggae music to a whole new level
with DUB. (They don't call him "scratch" for nothing -- he is probably
one of the first people to scratch a turntable and did some amazing
studio magic back when there was very little electronics to do it
with). In the late 60's and 70's, Reggae dancehall and soundsystems of
course spread to the east coast of the US and England as well.
Likewise, people that think that  rapping originated in america
completely forget that its roots originated from reggae DJ "toasting"
as well....

In the UK, the dub stylee was taken to new heights with newfangled
digital studio equipment by the likes of Adrian Sherwood, Gary Clail,
Tack>>Head, Dub Syndicate, African Head Charge, etc. This movement
began in the early 80s and is easily the grandfather of some
"progressive techno/house" that we hear nowadays (The Orb, Future Sound
of London).

At the same time, elements of techno are present in early 80's
disco/electro sound ala "Planet Rock" and even old school
rap/funk/disco from the Sugarhill Gang... And yes, people even danced
all night to that stuff.

Finally, IMHO, mass-ecstacy/acid inspired all-night raving truly came
together in "Balearic Beat" on the Balearic Islands off the coast of
southern spain, a popular vacation spot for british hipsters and
euro-trash of all ilk. This happened concurrently with the rave scene
in England circa '87-'88. I happened to find myself on the Balearic
Island of Ibiza in the summer of '88 and did my first real raving there
while taking a break from a biz-ness trip to the UK. I met some people
there who then pointed me in the rigth direction for raving in London
upon my return. I noticed a definite cross-polination of scenes going 
on between the UK and Ibiza at the time. The Ibizan sound was alot more
electro (e.g. wacky Kraftwerk and Yello remixes) while the UK sound was
more acid (e.g. Baby Ford, and a bunch of other stuff I didn't
recognize).

Though I must say that the rave music being played in SF nowadays is
FAR MORE INTERESTING musically than any of the sounds I heard in London
or Ibiza back in '88. Praise Jah.

Hey, I'd like to stay a while and talk, but my compile on this
piece-of-shit-excuse-for-a-computer-and-operating-system (DEC Ultrix)
finally finished, and hey, maybe it'll do the right thing and work for
a change. (Arrrrgh!).

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 05:59:29 1993
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 13:46:46 +0100 (BST)
From: Greg Eden <G.L.Eden@newcastle.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Rhythm at Townsends
To: Mark Guthrie <winston@lurnix.com>
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, hart%ntmtv.com%uunet@uunet.uu.net,
        wicked@netcom.com
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1993, Mark Guthrie wrote:

> I also wonder about rave history, Chris.  It may be one of those things that
> we may never know the real story behind.  Were the first house party/raves
> in England direct off shoots or copies of something going on in Chicago or
> Detroit, or is that just where the music originated from?  Or was it an
> innovation that English kids made using American music?  Was it an example
> of parrallel evolution?

How I see it here in the UK, is that Chicago/Detroit house/techno provided
the seed that grew into the Uk rave scene. It evolved/mutated into current
stuff by simple evolutionary process. The harder stuff was more 'dancible' to
and this fuels the desire for harder and harder beats.

A situation has been reached, where the mutant UK music scene is now so
different to the original US style, it is being imported back to the US as
a brand new thing. Which is basically the old house scene +20 BPM, louder
sound rigs, lasers, smoke hype etc.

May be that sounds too cynical :)



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 09:22:43 1993
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From: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 09:22:44 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Subject: back from SF . . . :-)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hi!  I got back to New Jersey last night after two weeks in San Francisco.
California is cool, but a little weird (in a good way).  So here's the
report on the 2nd half of my trip.

Let's see, last time I talked about Your Sister's House, and going to LA.
Did I mention the Full Moon Rave?  Well, I'll start there.

It was big (400 people?).  It was on a beautiful beach.  It was so cold I
couldn't really enjoy it.  Also, I learned something very interesting about
myself.  Basically, I can't dance while experiencing large influxes of 
serotonin in my brain.  All I want to do is snuggle up to people, and if the 
man I love happens to be there I get *completely* distracted from the music.  
So, no more xraving for me (but plenty of vraving :-) ).  So, I'm not sure
if I didn't like the FMR because I was *sooo* cold, because of the music
in general (I'm not really into that slow funky groovy stuff I was hearing
all night, although Markie went into a strecth of white noise/acid house 
that I really enjoyed, and then Jeno at sunrise was happy and fun to dance
to too), or because of being distracted.  I'll have to do the massive FMR
thing again sometime to be sure, this time with *many* more layers of 
clothes, and nothing in my brain other than my usual bottle of home-brew
smart drinks to keep me going.

Onward . . . I spent most of Wednesday and Thursday sleeping off the FMR.
I also managed to make myself rather sick by eating about 1/2 a pound of 
Ghiradelli chocolate for breakfast one day.  Man that stuff is GOOD! The best
American chocolate I have ever tasted . . . and the best hot fudge sauce 
I've ever had, too.  Suprizingly enough, even though I was a complete 
chocolate pig most of the time I was in SF, I actually *lost* weight on this
vacation!  Must be the cool air . . . I probably shivered all the extra
calories off at the FMR and YSH.

Which brings me to the 2nd YSH I went to:  this one was outdoors, and it
was rather chilly but I wore more clothes so it wasn't so bad.  Lili Tran
started the night with very slow hip-hopish music, it was interesting and
sort of reminded me of Larry (Days-X-One) back home.  After her came Tara,
who did a good job technically and had some interesting tracks . . . but
her selection sort of petered out toward the end (I think she was running out
of records).  I went next, and kept things very slow for me (135 bpm) and 
mixed better than at the 1st YSH I did, but still not up to my best.  It was
good to see people dancing, and their energy kept me going . . . when Susan
arrived I was glad to see her because I was tired and cold.  Susan's set
really hit me in a good place.  She played a lot of very acidy tunes, which
were very energetic even though they were slower than what I usually like.  I
realized then that she truly understood the concept of *phatness* in dance
music, and her creative mixing combined with her great track selection turned
what had been a rather sad/frustrated/upset evening for me compeletely around.
She was the first DJ I really connected to out there in SF.  

Friday during the day Mike, Mary, and I played tourist and wandered around
Chinatown.  I had been feeling sort of homesick for New York all day, but when 
I got to the dark, crowded, dirty (by SF standards) streets, I suddenly felt
a lot better.  We also drove around and went up to the Coit Tower.  Friday 
night Brian and I rode the cable cars around.  Doing that was not only fun, but 
it also gave me a good feeling for some of the different areas and 
neighborhoods in SF.  One of the cars we rode was operated by a real kamikaze 
driver . . . he'd wait at the top of a hill for all the traffic to clear, then 
let off the brake and we'd WOOSH down the hill.  San Francisco, the city with 
its own built-in roller coaster.  I loved it!

Saturday afternoon Brian and I drove around Marin, and walked around the
Marin Headlands for a while.  That place is SO incredibly gorgeous, these
HUGE mountains that end right in the Pacific Ocean, amazing views of 
mountains, SF, the Ocean, and the Golden Gate Bridge.  We did a bit of
site-hunting, too!

Saturday evening started with a party at Casa Twitch (nifty studio, guys) but I
wasn't feeling so well so wasn't exactly sociable.  Brian and I left early to
go to Basics, where he was working doing parking.  Basics was held in a
national guard amoury . . . it was funny when they turned on the lights during
set-up because suddenly you could see all the non-blacklight military
banners hanging amongst the blacklight-activated Basics banners.  Basics
was big by East Coast standards . . . about 2000 people.  I was tired so I
took a nap in a way cool chill space that had the most *amazing* trippy
computer graphics projected on some hanging parachutes . . . the graphics
had dance sequences from old Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly movies, plus footage
from some Disney movies like "Alice in Wonderland" all interspersed with 
fractals, trippy blobs, and swirls of color.

I was pretty bored/lost/unhappy until people from the Casa Twitch party
started turning up around 1.00 am.  Some of the music had been pretty good,
but there's nothing I hate more than being left alone at a rave where I know
NO ONE, so it was very hard for me to enjoy myself.  Once Anne, Pete, Jo,
and others got there I relaxed, and soon noticed "Transform" coming out of
the very large speaker set-up.  "Oh my god, German Trance in San Francisco"
I thought, and I parked myself in front of the speakers and danced like mad
for about 45 minutes.  Brian returned from parking at that point, and some
seriously trancy acidy stuff was being played by some DJ who's name started
with a D, and I danced until I thought I was going to drop.  We chilled 
for a while both outdoors (where it was cold and damp) and indoors (where
it was lound and crowded) and I fell asleep in the chill space again, so we
headed out to the car and slept for like an hour and a half.  When I woke up
I was grumpy and very cold, so we collected Seth and went home around 6.15 am.

As far as big parties go, Basics was very well done.  I'm not sure how vibey
it was, because 99% of vibe is in your own head, and my head was *not* in
a very good place that night.  But, nonetheless, I managed to have a good time
so it must have been pretty good overall.

Sunday brought with it the event I'd been waiting all week for, Fluid Grooves.
I've already posted about this to sfraves, so I'll just re-post the review
of that to ne-raves when I get done with this.

So, in conclusion, San Francisco is both very different and very similar to
the East Coast.  It's very pretty, but in a different way from the green
plains and gentle hills I'm used to out here.  The City of SF itself is
MUCH prettier, cleaner, and more residential than NYC, that's for sure.
Berkeley reminds me a lot of most other large-university towns I've been
in, and closely resembles Austin, TX, a town I love dearly.

The rave(house) scene there feels a lot like what we have here, it's just
that there are so many more people involved out in SF.  Also, there are many
many MANY more people aged 22 and over involved in SF than there are back
East.  Because there are so many more people, and so many more older people,
the scene feels stronger and more mature at the base.  However, the good 
parties in SF seem to be just as wonderful as the good parties back home.
Similarly, the not so good ones have similar problems to the not-so-good
ones back here.  There are many many many more parties/clubs/events to choose
from in SF, but then they have the numbers of people involved in the dance
subculture to support it.  I honestly can not and do not claim that one is
better or worse than the other, or that one is FUNDAMENTALLY different from
the other.  Both involve people getting together to dance, have fun, hear
music they love, and be in community with others who love the music and the
dancing, too.  Both scenes can be very vibey, or not, depending on the 
night.  The music is rather different from here to there, but it's effect on
the people who enjoy the music is the same.  The sheer numbers of people 
involved in SF seems to carry the rave(house) culture into everyday life too, 
which is something we don't have out here, but perhaps if the same numbers
of people were involved it would be like that here.  (However, due to the
HIGH incidence of yuppidom and rat-racing out East, I sincerely doubt it
will ever happen simply because the critical mass of of age 22+ ravers out
East will never be achieved, whereas such odd flights of spirituality are more
the norm in San Francisco in general.)

It was great to meet so many sfravers, and to see a totally new part of the
country.  In all it wasn't the most blissfully perfect relaxing vacation
I've ever had, but it was a very REAL experience being out there.  I *will*
be back again, and am in fact planning on coming in mid-October for a long
weekend.  I still owe you sushi, Mike W., which is why I'm coming :-).  I
am very much looking forward to seeing my SF friends again! 

Love and community,

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 09:56:59 1993
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From: wicked@netcom.com
Message-Id: <9309081657.AA01391@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Dance History (was Rave History)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 93 9:57:15 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	As is the case with popular music over the past forty years or
more, it tends to move between continents - import/export. Rock & Roll,
Punk, what have you. House music originating in Detroit and Chicago was
directly influenced by European outfits such as Kraftwerk and Depeche Mode.

Also in the early days in Chicago DJ's like Frankie Knuckles would program
drum rhythms and play disco records over the top of his beats in the club
environment.

American House music was being played in the Gay Clubs in England for a good
two years + before any sign of acceptance in the straight scene (circa
1985 - 1987) and even a few chart hits like 'Jack your Body' and 'Love
Can't Turn Around'.

	During the Eighties in London a warehouse party scene developed
that featured soul music ie. Hip-Hop, Disco, Uptempo R&B, Rare Groove,
Jazz Funk etc. This directly gave rise to Pirate Radio, notably Kiss FM -
a weekend station that was listened to by over a million people. There has
always been a strong underground soul scene in England ever since James
Brown & Co . invented the Funk.

Sometime in 1987 a few unconnected groups of people started throwing
all-night House parties. 'Schoom' and 'Phycic T.V '. Schoom was agroup of
South - London soccer 'fans' from the soul-side whereas Phycic T.V came
from the Industrial edge. These small parties grew in size and started to
attract the 'Trendies' (i.e fickle club kids). Inject a new designer drug
(Ecstacy) and stir with a nice helping of media and ....... Acid House.

	Of course this shit started to get played on the radio, with a
whole host of new fly by night pirate stations springing up. Larger and
larger parties. You wanted to go to a party you listened to the radio-
they told you where the map point was. Out-of-Control! So much so that the
British Government paniced. All these people gathering together and no
trouble? They don't like that. Keep everyone divided and oppressed. Also
they weren't getting their cut ($).

	Markie !)



	 --


-- 

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 10:38:38 1993
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To: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: FYI Re: "president@whitehouse.gov" 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 93 14:33:11 PDT."
             <9309072146.AA22943@netcom5.netcom.com> 
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 93 10:38:32 -0700
From: Joachim Vance (The Underdog) <jvance@einstein.oac.uci.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 Nihils Mayer spouts:
> PS: I wish I was in town for all the cool-sounding events that happened
> this weekend (e.g. Fluid Groove) but alas, i'm in lovely (NOT!) southern
> california instead. 

  Hey! some of us live there k?  have some respect.  :)

Joachim

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 10:54:38 1993
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Date: 08 Sep 1993 10:54:27 -0800 (PST)
From: SCRUTON@JOYCE.dnet.hac.com
Subject: Rave history question from an ignoramous (ignoramus?)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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What ever happened to Shamanarchy?  Supposedly some kind of melding
  between Brit pagans and tekkies . . . was written up in Mondo 2000
  in May in the letters section

  It was supposed to sweep across the US like some sort of consuming
  locust plague or whatever, bringing on the full and final decline
  of the music industry as we know it

Just curious . . . 

Dave Scruton

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 11:28:06 1993
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 93 11:28:19 -0700
From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309081828.AA21024@koko.csustan.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Rave documentary
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I heard Moby was  on television. He was on  "Wavelength" a youth talk    show
 dealing with everyday life of our generation. They did a  little historical
segment that said house music started  out in Detroit,Chicago and was picked
up from there  to the U.K. scene. They had also taken actual footage from a
few raves to show what the scene was  like. Overall it was educating the
viewers about the Underground scene and how it is not a drug orgy, but more of

a peacefull gaathering where everyone can enjoy themselves and have a great time

p.s. 
Neils Mayer says:
> PS: I wish I was in town for all the cool-sounding events that happened
> this weekend (e.g. Fluid Groove) but alas, i'm in lovely (NOT!) southern
> california instead.

Just what part  of So. Cal. were  you in? I live in Newport Beach and  its hell
of a lot nicer than the Bay area, but I  do not think that it   is a  "lovely
(not)!)..." northern california. Besides what was it about So. Cal. you did nno
like?      Disnyland or was  it he  beutiful Cove  at Sandy Eggo  nnnnaaaa!!!
yoou must have  lost your way and ended uupp  in Commpton.

The point    is every county has  its     good parts and bads so don't be so
quick    on judgement  and   have  some respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S.S. what   is the word    on it? Ia anyoone working on it? Has it been published
yet?? because I would like to get a hold of a  copy if it has been printed

Hoss.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 11:54:30 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: This Weeks Rave Guide
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 3 Sep 1993 11:59 PDT
    from PGRASSI@scuacc.scu.edu
    <DA508601000087A4@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 93 11:54:26 -0700
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>From: PGRASSI@scuacc.scu.edu
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 11:59 PDT
>To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
>Subject: Re: This Weeks Rave Guide
>Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU
>Message-ID: <DA508601000087A4@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>

>Thought it was worth mentioning that Spundae at DV8 will also include
>djs Doc Martin, Rick Preston, Spun, Dutch and Simon...cool.
>\p.gracious


Did anyone besides me go?  I didn't see anyone I recognized. 




vivianm

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 12:10:56 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309081911.AA22147@koko.csustan.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Whoops!!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 Earlier I said, " I heard Moby was  on television. He was on  "Wavelength" a youth talk    show
 dealing with everyday life of our generation. They did a  little historical
segment that said house music started  out in Detroit,Chicago and was picked
up from there  to the U.K. scene. They had also taken actual footage from a
few raves to show what the scene was  like. Overall it was educating the
viewers about the Underground scene and how it is not a drug orgy, but more of

a peacefull gaathering where everyone can enjoy themselves and have a great time

Correction: House music started out in Detroit, Montana, not Chicago..

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 12:11:15 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
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Subject: We have the power!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 93 12:11:29 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Greetings, Ravers!

I want you all to know that I have invested in a 5kW generator.
We powered Ethan's Sound Vision system with it, and there was
juice to spare.  I mention this to you all because I want to
make this available to anyone on the list who wants to throw
a renegade (or even a permitted outdoor event!) and needs
a generator. It is an American made generator, on wheels,
with a continuous output of 5000W, surge load of up to 6250W
(for you techies).  It does run rather loudly (compared to
some that you may have heard), and we're working on that.
The important thing is, there's lots of portable power
that is now in the family. Oh, yes, and we're working on 
getting it set for an *electric* start (push a button to
start--won't that be groovy!), though it does have a pull
cord also.

Please contact either Ethan or I if you want to use the
generator.  Our contact info is:

Ethan:     nrg@netcom.com         415-826-6137
Bryce:     brycer@netcom.com      415-776-7249

Any donations or use fees will be gratefully accepted to offset
the cost of the generator, but are not required to use it. This
is party power for all of us!
-- 
Bryce Ryan -- Specializing in AMBIANCE -- brycer@netcom.com
"The revolution will not be televised, 
 but the proceedings will be available online."  Art McGee

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 12:15:17 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309081915.AA22207@koko.csustan.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Whoopss!! again
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I was asking about the "Rave Cookbook" when I asked, "what   is the word    on it? Ia anyoone working on it? Has it been publis
hed
yet?? because I would like to get a hold of a  copy if it has been printed

Hoss."

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 13:28:08 1993
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From: bbehlen@techno.Stanford.EDU (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 13:28:06 PDT
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: sfraves
Subject: (fwd): Massive Culture
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>From a4rest@aol.com Wed Sep  8 10:18:49 1993
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To: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 93 13:08:10 EDT
Subject:  Massive culture
Status: OR

Notes on Massive Culture:
  
Massive Culture was an admirable event that takes lots of focus, good energy,
money and support; (I have promoted rave events and they are expensive and
take good heart and great organization).

MC had easy parking and access off 580 in Livermore. Two hugh tents, ambient
tent,  outdoor stage, industrial food trucks, lots of merchandize booths,
video game tent, visual walls, laser, VR, orbiter,. etc. Outdoor venue at a
flea market type place, no dust but walking and dancing on asphalt for 8
hours is a chore.

There was a large  friendly crowd (3,000??) -no bullshit we/them sort of
thing- I talked with some hip/hop folks and they really were into the
"Wicked" house tent scene; and they still love their "body-slammin" music. 
Many left the venue when the outdoor band stage closed at 1 am. But the
Wicked tent raved on hard and large.
 
Other notables/compliants:  No alcohol (keeping it safe) !!, great sound
systems, killer DJ's (Carlos woke up the ambient tent for an hour or so with
a killer set), Jermy, EFX, and some "live" house music creators were knocking
it out in a mostly empty tent near the enterance.  

All the action was at the hip/hop stage and the Wicked tent. Lots of cool
bands, high priced food and water (tacky). Great security without oppression
- many-many security folks - but friendly (not like the assholes at the Grove
Kichen last month).

Lots of cool booths with the normal scene merchandise, but some great stuff
from the raggae, American Indian, and craft jewerly creators. Biggest crowd
was at the Legalize Marijuana booth. VR and Brain Dream were cool and
popular.

I had a good time and I'm glad I went to support this crossover music effort.
It was a good vibe - to share the music and broaden the new world culture. It
came off peacefully  and the scene has spread out and touched more people in
a positive way. 

Given the high level of energy and effort this type of event takes, I would
say that it was a success; maybe a smaller mix without all the security and
high production costs will make for a more intimate experience. After the
Full Moon at Bonny Dune last Tuesday its hard to want to be anywhere else.
 

Peace, Love, and Rave

Forrest 

Sub note:

Several messages on the ravenet recently  strike me as elitist, having a "we
vs. them" attitude about the "scene" and people who come new (or experienced)
into rave culture. To those (hopefully only a few elitist ravers) who
continually decry the "loss of the scene" or big events; or put down
newcomers -  "they just didn't dance right or 'look' right", I say get your
head and stuckup rave nose out of the air and open up your mind.

Welcome All into the One World Tribe and spread Respect and Celebration for
each others differences. That's how we spread peace into and disapate all the
maddness of hate and fear -- 

The world of music and dance is the focus of a new community where we have
the opportunity to respect each other in real time, and where we give more
priority to honesty of feelings, and celebrating our  differences in thought,
culture, and goals.
  
   "We are not material beings on a spiritual journey; 
    we are spiritual beings who need an earthly journey 
    to become fully spiritual"  

                                 Blessed Be! 
        


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 13:30:17 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309082030.AA24267@koko.csustan.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: sorry guys
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I finally got it right its Detroit , Michigan. I will probably get flamed anyways
but know Ithink i will go and study some geography.

Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 13:50:54 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309081819.AA22196@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Your identification please
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Does anyone know the tittle of the song that has a basic drum beat under
trippy wah-wah psychedelic funk?  It's on Spun's "Hemp Can Save the Planet"
tape.  Also, right after that is a scratch of Vivaldi's Four Seasons (Spring,
I beleive, but don't ask conductor, symphony, or key |-).  Is that Spun
fucking around or is that part of a song?

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 13:52:02 1993
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Message-Id: <9309082048.AA00857@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 15:52:19 +0600
To: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: aryba@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Adam Rybaczuk)
Subject: Re: Whoops!!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


>
>Correction: House music started out in Detroit, Montana, not Chicago..
>>>>>> Do you really believe that? I can't understand how you could think
>>>>>>Detroit started House music. Everyone contributed dude, and Chicago was
>>>>>>the place to be for that shit, until we got caught up in that crazy
>>>>>>Hip-House faze. When Chi- town started Hip House, London caught on to our
>>>>>>old shit. Now a lot of ACID did come from Detroit, but there's no way you
>>>>>>can honestly say House came from Detroit. Now you can think whatever you
>>>>>>want, but please....with the likes of:
        Jamie Principle 
        Jesse Saunders
        Farley Funkin Keith
        Marshall Jefferson
        Chip E.
        Frankie Knuckles
        Dr. Derelict
        Le Noiz
        Jesse Velez
        Mike Wilson - Before he became Mike "The Hitman" Wilson
        Ralphi Rosario
Was this music sellin in Detroit? You bet it was, but was CREATED in Chi
town. So although Detroit influenced the sound, it was Chicago artists who
MADE it.  That's not to say Detroit didn't have their own artists, But I
can't think of any. So, that's it. I no doubt started a flame war, since
everyone thinks IT (whatever it is) started in their back yards.
Keep me posted. There's gotta be someone who disagrees.
                                                    Adam Rybaczuk
                                               Northwestern University
                                               Language Laboratories
                        (99.97% inert materials, .03% active ingredients) 


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 13:52:34 1993
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Message-Id: <9309082049.AA01154@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 15:52:56 +0600
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: aryba@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Adam Rybaczuk)
Subject: Re: Whoops!!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 15:52:22 +0600
>To:hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz), SFRAVES
>From:aryba@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Adam Rybaczuk)
>Subject:Re: Whoops!!
>
>
>>
>>Correction: House music started out in Detroit, Montana, not Chicago..
>>>>>>> Do you really believe that? I can't understand how you could think
>>>>>>>Detroit started House music. Everyone contributed dude, and Chicago was
>>>>>>>the place to be for that shit, until we got caught up in that crazy
>>>>>>>Hip-House faze. When Chi- town started Hip House, London caught on to
>>>>>>>our old shit. Now a lot of ACID did come from Detroit, but there's no
>>>>>>>way you can honestly say House came from Detroit. Now you can think
>>>>>>>whatever you want, but please....with the likes of:
>        Jamie Principle 
>        Jesse Saunders
>        Farley Funkin Keith
>        Marshall Jefferson
>        Chip E.
>        Frankie Knuckles
>        Dr. Derelict
>        Le Noiz
>        Jesse Velez
>        Mike Wilson - Before he became Mike "The Hitman" Wilson
>        Ralphi Rosario
>Was this music sellin in Detroit? You bet it was, but was CREATED in Chi town.
>So although Detroit influenced the sound, it was Chicago artists who MADE it. 
>That's not to say Detroit didn't have their own artists, But I can't think of
>any. So, that's it. I no doubt started a flame war, since everyone thinks IT
>(whatever it is) started in their back yards.
>Keep me posted. There's gotta be someone who disagrees.
>
                                                    Adam Rybaczuk
                                               Northwestern University
                                               Language Laboratories
                        (99.97% inert materials, .03% active ingredients) 


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 14:13:42 1993
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 93 14:13:53 -0700
From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309082113.AA25146@koko.csustan.edu>
To: aryba@casbah.acns.nwu.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Whoops!!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

You maybe right!!! I am neutral in this flame war, because it is in a weird way
educational to those who read the different arguments. Therefor I say lets use
correction: lets turn this flame war into a historical study of how, where, who,
what, etc. did all this started and let those left in the dark or gray shades
know what its all about befor the media takes over and turns the already 
ignorant televidiots into anti-ravers by missinforming them.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 14:18:41 1993
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 93 17:18:19 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309082118.AA04589@pilot.njin.net>
To: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: We have the power!
In-Reply-To: <9309081911.AA09341@netcom2.netcom.com>
References: <9309081911.AA09341@netcom2.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Likewise, I have an Adcom GFA-555 that I'm willing to tote into town
given a little advance notice for no charge. It's clean power,
strong enough (200w/ch 8ohm, bridgeable) for a renegade's mid/treble
drivers, or the whole schmoo for a house party.

Sean


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 14:38:51 1993
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 14:40:37 -0800
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Subject: Wavelength TV show..Who was the smart drink vendor?
Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Did anyone catch the Wavelength cable TV show yesterday?
I just saw Bones (SF DJ) and he said that the promoter interviewed talking
about smartdrinks was talking about his products,which "were not all caffeine
and sugar."  Excuse me if this is a terminally stupid question,but I was
curious who this person was..Was it Scotto of NASA? (one of my
customers...)
I never catch media mentions like this until after they already air...
Does anyone have a tape of this show!?
-Chris.
-
Chris Beaumont
ccat@netcom.com
ccat@casa.stanford.edu           public key available via finger


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 15:03:14 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309082059.AA22376@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, uunet!koko.csustan.edu!hsarbaz@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Rave documentary
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Just what part  of So. Cal. were  you in? I live in Newport Beach and  its hell
of a lot nicer than the Bay area, but I  do not think that it   is a  "lovely
(not)!)..." northern california.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Umm.  I beg to differ.  I personaly think the Bay Area is nicer but I realize
it's my opinion (even though I can't understand what wacko would think any
part of Southern Cal. is nicer than Marin county |-).  So let's refrain from
blanket statements like those above, regarding any geographical location.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 15:11:19 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309081653.AA00847@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, uunet!ntmtv.com!hart@uunet.UU.NET,
        wicked@netcom.com, winston@lurnix.lurnix.com
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Cc: ntmtv!hart
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


other pertinent questions:

1.	when did outdoor events start happeneing?
2.	where/when did e&a bcome popular?
3.	where/when did 303's get popular (those "blippy" sounds, right?)

who knows?  someone must!!!  any of you wicked types (markie!) know any
of this history?


*

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 15:12:53 1993
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From: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
Message-Id: <9309082213.AA10909@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: Re-Entry
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 16:13:27 -0600 (MDT)
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



After a spectacular four day weekend, work schedules and deadlines seem far
too trivial for concern.  So here's an addendum to the list of reviews.

The gem of the weekend (and possibly the whole summer :) was Fluid Groove.
The first sight of the fire worshipers and the energy surrounding all will
stay with me for a long time to come.  It still amazes me how everything 
came together (lack of a bust, balmy weather, good people, incredible
net DJ talent, great planning, the list goes on) to provide a true TAZ in
every sense of the term.  I just want to add my heartfelt thanks to all who
made this event the spiritual re-awakening I have needed for so long.  (And
definitely watch for more of Sound Vision -- pure aural ecstasy.)

A pleasant surprise on Saturday was Basics.  After the bad rap that space 
has received in the past, it was great to discover and experience the high
energy a big party is capable of generating.  True, the vibe at Fluid 
Groove was much purer and closer to my heart, but the energy at Basics was
more than I expected for such a large and diverse group.  And Tony is well
on the way to becoming a 10 on my list of mind-altering DJs.

Jazzid Up at the Oasis also deserves mention.  Although more hip-hop'ish
then jazz, a decent crowd (although maybe due to the long weekend) and a 
nice way to chill a Monday night.



-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 15:14:06 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309082212.AA18947@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: ccat@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Wavelength TV show..Who was the smart drink vendor?
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Chris asks:
> Did anyone catch the Wavelength cable TV show yesterday?

By chance, I caught the tail end of it.  It was a pretty positive
presentation, with Moby and a couple of Detroit promoters spouting 
how anti-drug and wholesome their scene was.  Some guy from the
audience who went to a couple of Chicago raves claimed that he saw lots 
of kids on LSD.  He was told, emphatically, that the scene is different 
in Detroit, where no one does drugs.  Right.

The best part was when the segment ended with the entire studio audience
and hostess dancing/smiling/laughing to "Go".  Good PR I guess, even if 
tailored for mainstream consumption.

> Excuse me if this is a terminally stupid question,but I was
> curious who this person was..Was it Scotto of NASA? (one of my
> customers...)

I couldn't tell you.  The bottles he had on display did not look
like any of yours, though.

- leg of eel

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 15:25:30 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 15:25:27 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Cloud 9, NEXUS, Zenith, etc... 2cb?
Cc: socal-raves@ucsd.edu, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Here are some posts I dredged up awhile ago from alt.drugs.  They don't
mention Could 9 but I think that it could be the same as well  All info
provided fyi, of course.

        Brian

Article 56139 of alt.drugs:
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Path: agate!spool.mu.edu!olivea!gossip.pyramid.com!sword.eng.pyramid.com!pta!warrane.connect.com.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!cltr.uq.OZ.AU!news
From: malcolm@lingua.cltr.uq.OZ.AU (Malcolm Gillies)
Subject: Zenith/Nexus
Message-ID: <1993Aug14.031355.20757@cltr.uq.OZ.AU>
Sender: malcolm@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.AU (Malcolm Gillies)
Nntp-Posting-Host: lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
Organization: Secret Department of Pure Cosmic Beans
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1993 03:13:55 GMT
Lines: 31

Some forwarded mail that may be of interest. The promotional literature
mentioned called NEXUS 'brominated cathenine'.

>From: Alexander T. Shulgin
>To: malcolm@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
>Subject: nexus
>
>[...]
>
>Thanks for the mailing -- yes, I am very much familiar with the
>new drug NEXUS.  I had received a copy of a mailing sent to
>[Person X] who had received a brochure and a
>set of three capsules.  He sent me copies of everything, and I
>agree with you that since cathenine has no meaning, brominated
>cathenine also has no meaning.  Cathenone and cathine are real,
>but cathenine is a non-word. [Also, Cathenone is aka cathinone]
>
>And then I received a promotional mailing out of Los Angeles,
>probably similar to the one you [actually, someone in Florida]
>received, quite slick, and there was a personal letter attached,
>soliciting a promotional comment of some kind.  
>
>I ran the base extract on one of the gelatin capsules, and it
>was 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromophenethylamine, or 2C-B.  Something of a
>shame, in that if this drive for commercial exploitation is a
>success, it will certainly force the Federal authorities to do
>something, and the something will surely be the scheduling of
>2C-B.  A shame to have that particular compound join the others
>in the illegal bin.

Malcolm


Article 56282 of alt.drugs:
Path: agate!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!news.miami.edu!usenet.ufl.edu!NewsWatcher!user
From: Mark_Farone@sfa.ufl.edu (Mark Farone)
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Subject: Re: Zenith/Nexus
Followup-To: alt.drugs
Date: 17 Aug 1993 12:18:53 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Florida
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Mark_Farone-160893202616@128.227.37.18>
References: <1993Aug14.031355.20757@cltr.uq.OZ.AU> <CBtJ4F.G6M@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <24pdho$ho0@news.u.washington.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.227.37.18

In article <24pdho$ho0@news.u.washington.edu>, lamontg@u.washington.edu
wrote:
> 
> 2C-B isn't marketed anywhere to my knowledge.  consult your local
> underground chemist for prices and availability.

NEXUS does not seem to be 2C-B, but a related phenylalkamine.
It is being marketed across the country, evidentally, from California to
Florida. 
_________________________
Mark Farone    
University of Florida
Mark_Farone@sfa.ufl.edu


Article 56449 of alt.drugs:
Path: agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!decwrl!raven.alaska.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!lamontg
From: lamontg@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Subject: Re: Zenith/Nexus
Date: 19 Aug 1993 03:20:41 GMT
Organization: 'Operation: Mindcrime'
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <24uri9$f5d@news.u.washington.edu>
References: <1993Aug14.031355.20757@cltr.uq.OZ.AU> <CBtJ4F.G6M@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <24pdho$ho0@news.u.washington.edu> <Mark_Farone-160893202616@128.227.37.18>
Reply-To: lamontg@u.washington.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: goren1.u.washington.edu
Originator: lamontg@goren1.u.washington.edu

Mark_Farone@sfa.ufl.edu (Mark Farone) writes:
>In article <24pdho$ho0@news.u.washington.edu>, lamontg@u.washington.edu
>wrote:
>> 2C-B isn't marketed anywhere to my knowledge.  consult your local
>> underground chemist for prices and availability.
>
>NEXUS does not seem to be 2C-B, but a related phenylalkamine.

we're all dying to know where you heard this and what it is?



Article 56491 of alt.drugs:
Path: agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!olivea!decwrl!decwrl!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!gatech!usenet.ufl.edu!NewsWatcher!user
From: Mark_Farone@sfa.ufl.edu (Mark Farone)
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Subject: Re: Zenith/Nexus
Followup-To: alt.drugs
Date: 19 Aug 1993 20:07:32 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Florida
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <Mark_Farone-190893041315@128.227.37.18>
References: <1993Aug14.031355.20757@cltr.uq.OZ.AU> <CBtJ4F.G6M@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <24pdho$ho0@news.u.washington.edu> <Mark_Farone-160893202616@128.227.37.18> <24uri9$f5d@news.u.washington.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.227.37.18

In article <24uri9$f5d@news.u.washington.edu>, lamontg@u.washington.edu
wrote:
> 
> >NEXUS does not seem to be 2C-B, but a related phenylalkamine.
> 
> we're all dying to know where you heard this and what it is?

What is it is exactly the question noone seems to know.
Again, it does not *seem* to be 2C-B based upon a preliminary analysis by
one of our pharmacy faculty members. I believe he is in the process of
having some analyzed.

However, effectually it does seem similar to 2C-B.
_________________________
Mark Farone    
University of Florida
Mark_Farone@sfa.ufl.edu


Article 56592 of alt.drugs:
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Path: agate!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!olivea!apple.com!guest.apple.com!anarch
From: anarch@apple.com (The Anarch)
Subject: Re: Zenith/Nexus
Message-ID: <1993Aug21.203040.20072@apple.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1993 20:30:40 GMT
References: <1993Aug14.031355.20757@cltr.uq.OZ.AU> <CBtJ4F.G6M@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Organization: Secular Humanists from Hell
Lines: 30

In article <CBtJ4F.G6M@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> fhw2n@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (BISON) writes:
>ok... i've now seen many references to this stuff claiming that
>is legal and feels like a cross btw acid and extacy.. 

I have no idea what this stuff is, but if it feels like a cross between
acid and ecstasy, then it is probably illegal.  See the Controlled 
Substance Analogue Enforcement Act of 1986:

  "...the term `controlled substance analogue' means a substance...which
   has a stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central
   nervous system that is substantially similar to or greater than the
   stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect...of a controlled
   substance in schedule I or II;...[or] which such person represents
   or intends to have a stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect..."

and:

  "A controlled substance analogue shall, to the extent intended for human
   consumption, be treated...as a controlled substance in schedule I."

The only exception to these rules that might apply to Zenith or Nexus or
whatever is if there an approved new drug application has been made to the
FDA.  Since no one seems to have any hard chemical/pharmaceutical info on
the stuff, I assume that's not the case.

-- 
+-+-+-+-+- anarch@apple.com -+-+-+-+-+  +-+- anarch@tortuga.dartmouth.edu -+-+
          "Actually, I know very little about it and other drugs."
                                                        --Steve Dyer
D I S C L A I M E R :   E V E R Y T H I N G   I   W R I T E   I S   F A L S E



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 15:36:30 1993
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From: Dana Watanabe <dwatanab@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Message-Id: <199309082236.AA28338@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Subject: localities
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers list)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 93 15:36:21 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

okay this is going to kinda second mark's remark but not...
niel posted implying distaste with so cal
last week jon drukman said it should be nuked
joachim threw in a smiley face comment about it
hoss sarbaz spoke up in defense of so cal putting in his bit
and then mark said that blanket statements like 
"southern california is better than the bay area" 
should be avoided

well, yes... im not saying its anyway intentional, but i've seen
socal/la bombed more than just the few times im mentioned,
but no one is told not to make blanket statements...
becuase hey.. its LA...

personally i find beauty in compton, more so than in newport beach,
and ive been to a hell of a lot better raves in compton than in
newport beach OR the bay area (none of the ones in compton have been
busted)

now, its not just statements, but its attitude, because, quite frankly,
i dont need no attitude from someone just because they live where they do
really, i dont have that much choice about it, i dont have the money/resources
to get up and move wherever the hell i want to
and if you think that because you do, or because you happen to end up in
a certain area of the world that that makes you a better person
then do me a favor and tell me where that better place is
so i can make sure its not here

i may be a little bitter about this, but this is where i've grown up
where my parents raised me, and i may not like all the things about this town
but im going to be happy with it and proud of it for what it has done
that is postive 
some people may not think that is much and some people may know 
better than others what is wrong or not with whatever area
but im sick of mine being trashed
im sorry, but im really goddammotherfuckingtipspilling sick
of people talking shit about places that they dont live in
rarely visit and rely on hearsay to find out info about
especially when that place happens to be my home
i personally think it would be better not to be cutting any location down
and instead dealign with the problems or the positives of teh area you live in

thank you

 ,
dana

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 15:44:25 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309082237.AA26954@koko.csustan.edu>
To: ccat@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  Wavelength TV show..Who was the smart drink vendor?
Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I heard a little about it too. Moby was a guest on the show. If you get hold
of a copy of the show let me know.

Hoss.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 16:00:42 1993
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From: Mark Metz / Future Forum <mmetz@soda.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <9309082300.AA06856@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject: ameba
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 16:00:45 -0700 (PDT)
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AMEBA is on line. Mark and Allen both recieve mail At 

mmetz@soda.berkeley.edu

We went to "Burning Man" and saw road warrior/rocky horror picture show
hybrid tribe burn huge man in a harsh desert environment. Rave tent was
there, 2 miles from center of camp. TAZ must have been responsible. 
Witnessed atrocious parkinsons style convulsions for hours, some poor frat
boy from Reno injested a MDA related compound made by his in-frat chemist.
his first psychadelic experience was spent pinned to the desert floor as a
haight ashbury clinic doctor tried to unravel the autistic groove the boy 
found himself in. Took 7 of us to hold him down as his convulsions were beyond
epeleptic. BEWARE new synthetics. Burning Man is a next year must-all 3 days.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 16:12:11 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309082310.AA27563@koko.csustan.edu>
To: dwatanab@mothra.nts.uci.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  localities
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

My intentions were not to make blanket statements and if I offended anyone
i am terribly sorry. 


Like Dana said, "...it would be better not to be cutting any location down
and instead dealign with the problems or the positives of teh area you live in

thank you..."

Again my apologies to Neils Myers, Dana, and anyone else...lets forgive and forget and move on ...

and please don't judge me by where I come from or what My arguments were wether
 I was rigth or wrong ( in this case I was wrong ).

Peace, love, happiness, and good fortun to SFravers.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 17:02:22 1993
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From: alves@bethe.ucdavis.edu (David Alves)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: burning man
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


My neighbors went to the burning man ceremony on sunday night.  They were
four wheeling for the weekend and dropped in to visit some friends who
with the sign crew.  They are from the midwest and were surprised by the
"wierdos and naked people" but had fun.

They did say that some people were rude when they offered them a beer
saying things like "we have better drugs than that" and giving them
disapproving looks.  

Drug snobbery makes no sense to me - I was glad for them that they had
a good time regardless.

Dave

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 17:18:48 1993
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From: jocelyn@hal.com (Jocelyn Cordell)
Message-Id: <9309090018.AA05374@dre.hal.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)

>other pertinent questions:

>1.	when did outdoor events start happeneing?

I don't know- 

>2.	where/when did e&a bcome popular?

If you're inquiring about when/where e&a became popular in the rave/house
scene(s)- I also don't know the answer to this one, but speaking generally:

A: look to the beat poets of the 50's; to my knowledge they were the first
   to include hallucinagens in a "scene." Of course the Mayans and the 
   Native Americans included hallucinagenic experiences in their rituals 
   through various methods-  including bloodletting, mushrooms, peote, etc...

E: I don't know who developed MDMA, but it was initially used by the 
   medical community to help in marriage counseling and to ease acute 
   depression. Pharmaceutical Ecstacy was manufactured in Dallas.
   Soon it made it's way into the clubs, etc... throughout Texas. 
   Bartenders would sell it more or less over the counter statewide. It was
   popular in the late 70's/early 80's. On Sept 1, 1985, MDMA was made illegal 
   (classified as a controlled substance). I remember this date very well,
   becuase the first time I took ecstacy was in June of that summer- the 
   only time I would ever get to take it legally.
   (OK- so I didn't have a perscription (:  I was fourteen- a fact 
   I added for those of you who think <21 can't handle themselves. I
   did it in the most controlled of all environments- at home. And I
   was too much of a Good Kid (tm) to have to worry about my parents'
   suspicions. I took walks- hiking some nearby trails and chilled 
   in the livingroom to some music with one other charged up friend.

   The rest is only a guess:
   I think what happened was that when ecstacy was made illegal in the 
   U.S. (or when the wheels to make it illegal were put in motion)
   many chemists with entrepreneurial aspirations headed for 
   Mexico. There (and also in the US) the drug continued to be 
   manufactured, not only making its way back to the US, but also 
   to the many clubs in the tourist meccas of Mexico- boom- it went
   international!



>3.	where/when did 303's get popular (those "blippy" sounds, right?)

>who knows?  someone must!!! 

I don't, but I'd like to know! 


>any of you wicked types (markie!) know any of this history?

Ditto???

Peace-

Jocelyn




From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 18:05:28 1993
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From: JACOB%SLACVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU
To: jocelyn@hal.com, sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

In-Reply-To: jocelyn@hal.com -- 09/08/93 17:34

i think e became popular in dallas tx (!!) clubs in mid-80's . some distributor
wanted to sell lots of it but it eventually got the attention of the fda.
as for acid at raves, i think it came from a misunderstanding in uk as to
the meaning of 'acid house.' they thought it meant u take acid and dance
to house music when in reality  'acid' here is chicago slang for sampling
or stealing bits of musick from other people's songs.
hope this helps.
take care/shalom/rave on
ovid

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 18:15:15 1993
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To: mcg@netcom.com, alves@bethe.ucdavis.edu (David Alves)
From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Subject: Re: burning man
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


>They did say that some people were rude when they offered them a beer
>saying things like "we have better drugs than that" and giving them
>disapproving looks.  

Big Meanies!  Not liking alcohol is one thing but it's no excuse to 
be rude to a nice person offering you a beer.

>Drug snobbery makes no sense to me - I was glad for them that they had
>a good time regardless.
>

Ayup.  Plus good beer, if you like it, is delicious.  Gunther and I make 
beer as a hobby, and ours is pretty darn good, IMHO.  (MykL can verify... 
BTW MykL, our India Pale Ale is ready & yummy, I'll call and bring a 
bottle over :-)

Anyway, sorry if this letter is FUBAR, I'm configuring a new mailer and it
may still be hokey.

C'ya,

-H-




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To: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: Rave History (was Re: Rhythm at Townsends )
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
>>Make NO mistake Mark, the house scene started in Detroit/Chi-town.  New
>>York runs a close second (if not first by their estimates).  But it started
>>HERE in the US first.  What the folks from the UK did was take the shit to
>
>Uh, that's an awfully america-centric view of things don't you think?

Not really, I do think it does address what his question was which is,
where did rave start.  And I do beleive, from all accounts it started here,
in the US.

>
>I assume we're talking about rave history here, and not just house
>music history. I'd say there are alot more facets to what we currently
>call "rave" than chicago house music.

True enough, but the FOUNDATION or PARENT of rave is house....but let's
continue. 
>
>If you're going to talk about the scene, you'd better start going back
>to reggae soundsystems in Jamaica back in the 60's with producer/DJ's
>like Lee "Scratch" Perry taking the reggae music to a whole new level
>with DUB. (They don't call him "scratch" for nothing -- he is probably
>one of the first people to scratch a turntable and did some amazing
>studio magic back when there was very little electronics to do it
>with). In the late 60's and 70's, Reggae dancehall and soundsystems of
>course spread to the east coast of the US and England as well.
>Likewise, people that think that  rapping originated in america
>completely forget that its roots originated from reggae DJ "toasting"
>as well....

That last senetence reeks Neils.  Rapping has many , many different
origins, most of them African in nature.  African-American's have been
rapping waaaay before there were turntables, or electricity.  It goes back
to scat, and even farther as a means of protest and message sending that
was undetectable to the slave masters.  As for "toasting" I would say that
it has more parallels with scat and jazz.  "Toasting" ain't nothing more
than a form of signifying, bka the dozens.  African's have been doing that
since before slavery.

>
>In the UK, the dub stylee [deleted...agreed on all points though, your
>historical perspective is to be admired, although a bit flawed earlier ;)].

>Though I must say that the rave music being played in SF nowadays is
>FAR MORE INTERESTING musically than any of the sounds I heard in London
>or Ibiza back in '88. Praise Jah.
>

What's that?!!!? We agree AGAIN? ;)

>Hey, I'd like to stay a while and talk, but my compile on this
>piece-of-shit-excuse-for-a-computer-and-operating-system (DEC Ultrix)
>finally finished, and hey, maybe it'll do the right thing and work for
>a change. (Arrrrgh!).
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


Peace out,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 19:06:39 1993
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 19:03:57 -0800
To: vivianm@src.dec.com
From: rth@netcom.com (Robert Hughes)
X-Sender: rth@netcom.com (Unverified)
Subject: Re: This Weeks Rave Guide
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>>From: PGRASSI@scuacc.scu.edu
>>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 11:59 PDT
>>To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
>>Subject: Re: This Weeks Rave Guide
>>Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU
>>Message-ID: <DA508601000087A4@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>
>
>>Thought it was worth mentioning that Spundae at DV8 will also include
>>djs Doc Martin, Rick Preston, Spun, Dutch and Simon...cool.
>>\p.gracious
>
>
>Did anyone besides me go?  I didn't see anyone I recognized. 
>
>
>
>
>vivianm

       I went and had a great time, Robbie Hardkiss was in the larger basement
room at 1-2am or so and he's still one of my fav's. 


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 20:35:02 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309090335.AA02583@koko.csustan.edu>
To: jocelyn@hal.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


>1.     when did outdoor events start happeneing?

My guess is that people liked Woodstock so much that they decided to have more
similar events, though on a smaller scale, where they can smoke pot, take acid,
have fun all night long. Woodstock was probably the biggest psychedelic event 
hence the psychedelic era evolved into disco-funk music from which folks 
"borrowed" (steal maybe) peices and made their own upbeat music.

Then if you put this all together somewhwere along the line the Underground 
Generation started........It maybe not be exactly so but its a guess.

Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 21:47:13 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
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Subject: Re: Cloud 9, NEXUS, Zenith, etc... 2cb?
To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 93 21:47:28 PDT
Cc: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu, socal-raves@ucsd.edu, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
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	If there is demand I can type up PIHKAL's comments on 2C-B.

-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep  8 23:56:12 1993
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1993 01:55:56 -0500 (EST)
From: 00hamacdonal@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Wavelength
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      I know that some of the interviews for the program were done in 

        Detroit at Sean Rose (aka Get Smart's) house for that program.

      I haven't seen the program yet so, I dunno.  I can't confirm w/him

        because he's on tour w/ W.O.M.A.D./ Peter Gabriel currently.

      He's at (Detoit)  313-272-4624 

           Hope I helped,

                   Yours In the Groove,

                        David Hollands - Ball State University - Muncie, IN.
                                              317.288.6277

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 00:08:25 1993
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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Message-Id: <9309090708.AA05945@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: localities
To: dwatanab@mothra.nts.uci.edu (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 0:08:37 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
In-Reply-To: <199309082236.AA28338@mothra.nts.uci.edu>; from "Dana Watanabe" at Sep 8, 93 3:36 pm
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I agree with Dana and for those of you who would like to expand your horizons,
come visit us down south some time (I will be going back down in two weeks to
begin school again) and we will surprise you...

(Gee, can I get a job at the Los Angeles Tourist Board?)


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
                                Tamara Palmer
                              trance@netcom.com
                           You are in...THE LIGHT!
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 01:08:51 1993
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In-Reply-To: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
       "Re-Entry" (Sep  8,  3:13pm)
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I definitely agree about Tony's spinning.  The last couple of times
(Earth Beat and Funky Techno Tribe) he's knocked my socks off.  

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 02:24:32 1993
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Via: uk.ac.bristol.irix; Thu, 9 Sep 1993 10:24:31 +0100
From: Miles Pearce <Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <23961.9309091024@irix.bristol.ac.uk>
Subject: Rave History
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Hiya Folks,

May I add what I percieve to be the History Of Raves....

What we loosely term as house music definately had its' origins in
Detroit/Chicago with artists like Mr Fingers. It has roots in the Gay
club scene as a progression of Hi-Energy Disco.

It was subsequently picked up by the Clubs here in the UK and I remember 
local DJs playing Jack and Garage as early as '85. Then in '86 tunes like
Love Can't Turn Around and Jack the Groove made the UK Top 40. Clubs were 
full of the this early stuff.

'87/'88 saw the advent of Acid House as it became known - lots of sqeaks and
and samples.

Meanwhile in the UK in the Summer of '88 the first summer of love occured
mainly around Londons' M25 Orbital Motorway - mostly illegal gatherings
- a large stage, huge PA, Lasers, lights, E not Acid and thousands of people
having the eexperience of a lifetime in Unison. These events had parallels
with the Clubs on Ibiza, where house had also taken a stronghold.

Acid House was a term picked up and used by the sensationalist low market
press and twisted to portray some sort of link with the drug. 'Evil
pusher/innocent teenager syndrome stories. This was a misconception
taken up by punters new to the scene - hence is use now at raves.

Raves are basically large outdoor dance parties that go on all night -
that's what they were called in the UK in '88. 

Inciently the Raves now are nothing like those in those good ol'
summers of love.

Cheers'

Miles

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 02:57:21 1993
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From: adamb@peg.apc.org
Message-Id: <9309090955.AA07971@igc.apc.org>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Fierce / InterRAVE ...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



Calling all RAVERS / RAVE organisers ...

		/RAVE EVENT in Brisbane, Australia and ?????
FIERCE!		/supporting the international year of indigenous peoples
		/global InterRAVE
		/all proceeds of Fierce to R.I.C. Sarawak Fund
		/the people WILL be seen - the people WILL be heard

CABERET / PERFORMANCE / DANCE PARTY / InterRAVE

Date/Time (geo-relative)

Brisbane	Fri 24 September	19:00 - 05:00 (+2200 GMT)
San Francisco	Fri 24 September (just)	01:00 - 11:00 (that's AM! :)
New York	Fri 24 September	04:00 - 14:00 

(note: local daylight savings not taken into account if applicable)

~performers			~DJ's

dream poppies			thommo
greenacres			jane grieg
little crow			peter mogg
cultivart			shane garvey
annie lee			mike nolan
hooray henrys
mark shortis
julian st john
fishbox
Bass-X
recipe-4-disaster

Consoles linked to the internet and video projectors will be installed at 
Fierce running IRC, to allow a truly global interactive rave. Scripts from 
(some) performances will be relayed through IRC as they are performed, 
allowing both virtual artists and DJ's and virtual audiences to mingle 
with the physical participants.

Join us for InterRAVE - a virtual global RAVE

I'll post the IRC details to this list closer to the date ...

If you would like to organise a similar installation simultaneously (as far 
is practical given time differences ...) zap me some email so we can
co-ordinate this -- LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU!

.----------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Adam Burns        |email: adamb@peg.pegasus.oz.au|                   |
|                   |   or  adamb@peg.apc.org      |PO Box 284 Broadway|
|--------------------------------------------------|QLD 4006 Australia |
| It is the business of the future to be dangerous |vox:+61 07 257 1111|
|                                      -- Hawkwind |fax:+61 07 257 1087|
`----------------------------------------------------------------------'


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 04:37:19 1993
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From: plunkett@uclink.berkeley.edu (Matthew James Plunkett)
Message-Id: <9309090031.AA06018@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Rave History
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

About six months ago I talked with a friend of a friend about raves etc.
She's about 45 and has lived in SF her whole life.  She was telling
me about all-night events in the Haight 20-something years ago.  From
what I remember, the things she described sounded very familiar.
An all-night party, colored lights, music (obviously not techno), lots
of people not in their normal minds.  I wishh that I could remember
more.

I guess my point is that maybe rave-type events are a case of convergent
evolution;  the old example of the Shark's eye and the dolphin's eye.
The history of raving I've heard says it started in England;  from the posts
the last couple of days it looks like the music was transplanted.

Does anyone know more about this?
-matt

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 07:04:38 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 07:04:50 -0700
Message-Id: <9309091404.AA12188@netcom.netcom.com>
To: wicked@netcom.com
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: Dance History (was Rave History)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>        As is the case with popular music over the past forty years or
>more, it tends to move between continents - import/export. Rock & Roll,
>Punk, what have you. House music originating in Detroit and Chicago was
>directly influenced by European outfits such as Kraftwerk and Depeche Mode.
>
>Also in the early days in Chicago DJ's like Frankie Knuckles would program
>drum rhythms and play disco records over the top of his beats in the club
>environment.

It is very cool and strange how things leave different continents only to
come back, like a boomerang, in a new form.

In terms of "house", I was under the impression (I know that we are on the
rave tip at this time) that it began right after disco "died".  Things were
driven underground and flourished.  I think I saw it on two documentaries
on dance, one was on this video tape "dance International", the otehr was
on "Rave" (some show on cable), and the other was a PBS special on Dance.

The comment I made about it started here in the US is flawed at best.
Seeing as by the time it was driven undeground it had already had much
infusion by the "techno" of the time (Kraftwerk, et al.), and rap was
beginning to take off as commercially viable.


>
>American House music was being played in the Gay Clubs in England for a good
>two years + before any sign of acceptance in the straight scene (circa
>1985 - 1987) and even a few chart hits like 'Jack your Body' and 'Love
>Can't Turn Around'.

It usually takes a long time before a straight scene acquires something
new.  The funny thing is how the music had changed and then was embraced by
the straight scene.  Most of the vocals, hi-hats, timbales, that
characterized the music at the time had been replaced by harder bass beats,
and signal processing.  It's even funnier that people like vocals, as long
as they are tripped out & processed (unless it's a morning set). As soon as
those divaesque vocals appear you will see damn near every straight guy run
for cover away from the dance floor ;).   


>
>        Of course this shit started to get played on the radio, with a
>whole host of new fly by night pirate stations springing up. Larger and
>larger parties. You wanted to go to a party you listened to the radio-
>they told you where the map point was. Out-of-Control! So much so that the
>British Government paniced. All these people gathering together and no
>trouble? They don't like that. Keep everyone divided and oppressed. Also
>they weren't getting their cut ($).
>
>        Markie !)
>

That is IT isn't it?  The main reason wherehouse parties are shut down is
due to the city not receiving ANY revenue from the venture. The stuff about
safety, although true, is nothing more than a smokescreen for greed. 
Because if the REALLY cared they would be in the middle of converting those
wherehouses to some good use (housing for the homeless is not the city's
idea of good use since it makes them no $$$).

Anyway,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 07:31:48 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: dj in the middle...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I wanted to know, from DJ's and pariters (ravers) alike:

How do you feel about the DJ being in the middle of the dance floor?


The reason I ask is that @ Basics that's what they did.  As far as I am
concerned they were overdue for this for several reasons.  First, for
whatever reason, people form these  "sit-down" encampments, at ALL of his
events.  Right in the middle of the dance floor.  When these people do this
it interrupts the flow of the floor. Secondly, he barely utilizes the space
to it's fullest. Usually the dancefloor has some amorphous boundary and is
never distinct.  4 corner sound?  Hell Martin's parties was where I got the
idea (along with Toon-Town).  Recently he has resorted to that
"wall-of-sound" that I despise so much.  Four corner , when done well,
gives sound a whole new flavor.

I like the fact that putting the DJ in the center, and surrounding it with
sound seemed to cut-down on the sit down posse's.  Also it was a nice
effect looking from above at all the people dancing central to the DJ.  My
only question is how do the DJ's as well as ravers like it?  Should MORE
parties do this?  If you didn't like it, what didn't you like about it? 
I've talked to one person about it and am interested in other's thoughts on
the matter.



Peace out,
John 

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 08:35:36 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 08:19:02 -0700
From: noah@Cadence.COM (Noah Ruiz)
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To: dwatanab@mothra.nts.uci.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: localities
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



Here we go again FLAME FLAME FLAME......FLAME FLAME FLAME......

Come on people, keep it in personal e-mail!

I don't think we (as in the ones not involved in this discussion)
should have to read about what people think about ones residence!

The subject is inane!

If you don't like my comment then e-mail me personally!

thank you,

noah

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 09:18:40 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
From: inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com (Inhuman)
Comments: Feed Your Head
Message-Id: <V9am0B8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 93 12:20:30 EDT
In-Reply-To: <9309091432.AA15040@netcom.netcom.com>
Organization: [Phantom Access] / the MindVox system
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee) writes:

> I wanted to know, from DJ's and pariters (ravers) alike:
> 
> How do you feel about the DJ being in the middle of the dance floor?

Personally, I love it when the DJ is right in the middle of everything.  
It's so much more communal.  It doesn't happen often on the east coast; 
often DJs are up in some balcony or something.  It seems the closer the 
DJ is to the crowd, the better the vibe.

Michael                 |  groovin' in the chocolate city!
(inhuman@phantom.com)   |  <PGP Key Available Upon Request>

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 09:28:52 1993
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To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu (SF Raves)
Cc: nw-raves@wimsey.bc.ca (NW Raves)
From: glenn.fajardo@aldus.com (Glenn Fajardo,USA)
Organization: Aldus Corporation, Seattle, WA 
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1993 09:36:50 PDT
Subject: Crystal's Impact on the Community
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hi folks,

I remember that a while back, there was a discussion about compiling an
informational type of flyer for crystal.  I was wondering if someone would
be kind enough to forward it to me digitally or hard copy.   Crystal is
starting to have an impact on the community up here and I would like to
start distributing information on it to the people up here.
My goal being to give people enough information  to make them think about
the impact that crystal has on the community.

I would love to hear your input, suggestions, and ideas about how to
counter the negative impact of crystal in the rave community.  Thanks for
your help and understanding.

Peace!

Tigger


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 09:30:53 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 08:39:51 PDT
From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309091539.AA01343@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: alves@bethe.ucdavis.edu, howard@netcom.com, mcg@netcom.com
Subject: Re: burning man
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Ayup.  Plus good beer, if you like it, is delicious.  Gunther and I make 
beer as a hobby, and ours is pretty darn good, IMHO.  (MykL can verify... 
BTW MykL, our India Pale Ale is ready & yummy, I'll call and bring a 
bottle over :-)

----
yeah, I was about to poo-poo the kids by the busses at the "companion
rave" to the dubtribe thing a week or so ago, when I noticed that a beer
sounded pretty damn good!  a quick trip to the mission and viola!  you
don't HAVE to get slobbering, ugly-ass drunk, but hey a beer now and then
is OK by me!

BTW, if you need any beer testers, I'M AVAILABLE!!!!

lat,

*

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 09:32:59 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 12:32:48 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309091632.AA07831@pilot.njin.net>
To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: dj in the middle...
In-Reply-To: <9309091432.AA15040@netcom.netcom.com>
References: <9309091432.AA15040@netcom.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I hear on the east coast they usually have the DJ elevated above the
crowd. I personally don't think I'd like this because of the
separateness. Imagine Carlos having to be separated from the crowd :(.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 09:56:26 1993
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From: Trevor Schulze <tschulze@cisco.com>
Message-Id: <199309091656.AA13521@stout.cisco.com>
Subject: Does anybody know....
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 9:56:23 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hey all,

I just found out that I am taking a small business trip (yawn) to London
(yeah!)  Could some of you kind people give me the scoop on where GOOD
record stores are either in London or Hampton.  I have a few extra days
tacked on, and want to trip around the area.  Thankssssss.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
  Trevor Schulze	tschulze@cisco.com	(415) 688-7739
----------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 10:17:21 1993
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From: dionf@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Francois Dion)
Message-Id: <9309091713.AA03590@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
To: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 13:13:34 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309091632.AA07831@pilot.njin.net> from "Sean Casey" at Sep 9, 93 12:32:48 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Beyond the ultraworld of Sean Casey:
> 
> I hear on the east coast they usually have the DJ elevated above the
> crowd. I personally don't think I'd like this because of the
> separateness.

Just my 2 canadian cents:

DJs have to be separated from the rest of the crowd for a lot of reason:

I dont like my vinyls or CD getting stolen. In all small parties (compared to
club work where the DJ is far from the crowd) i have DJed something got "lost".
Once it was another DJ, but most of the time it's the crowd. It is also very
anoying having someone have his flashlight on your records when you are trying
to mix. Also, when you are with the crowd, people tend to touch things they are
not supposed to. And i dont mean just equipment... (but then, this happens
more in clubs). Also, when people are dancing too close they can make the
turntables skip by either pushing a bit on the table or just by jumping around.
Also, i remember once where a DJ booth was about level to ground with an eye
level wall. Some girl put her high heel shoe on the edge (dunno why...) and it
fell down on one turntable (the one playing of course). And i could go on...
Raves seem a little more well behaved than a club crowd, but still several
points still apply. If the DJ is to be in the center of the crowd there has to
be something that prevents people direct access to equipment and to the DJ.
For 100 or 200 people events, a table is usually enough, but for big events
(400+) you HAVE to have some kind of booth.

Ciao,
-- 
Francois Dion
    '  _   _   _ 
 CISM (_) (_)  _) FM       Montreal , Canada       Email: CISM@ERE.UMontreal.CA
      (_)  / . _)             10000 Watts          Telephone no: (514) 343-7511
_______________________________________________________________________________
Audio-C-DJ-Fractals-Future-Label-Multimedia-Music-Radio-Rave-Video-VR-Volvo-...



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 10:23:33 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 10:23:35 -0700
From: Laura La Gassa <laura@soda.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <9309091723.AA12976@soda.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  dj in the middle...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sean reports:

>I hear on the east coast they usually have the DJ elevated above the
>crowd. I personally don't think I'd like this because of the
>separateness. Imagine Carlos having to be separated from the crowd :(.

Ahh the dangers of hearsay.  Let's see, I'm from the East Coast, and
this is what I've seen:

In the CLUBS the DJ is usally elevated/seperated from the crowd.  This
is actually a good idea in that club crowds here are often very different
and not as friendly as rave crowds, ergo the DJ is given a level of
insulation from drunkards, klub kidz doing heroin (it's the latest rage
out here), etc.  Of course, I've only been to 7 East Coast clubs this year,
but all of them (Fright Yard in Allentown, PA, Oz in Philadelphia PA,
1310 Russell St. in Baltimore, MD, The Limelight in NYC, Axis in Boston,
Man Ray in Boston, and Venus in Boston) had the DJ either elevated or
definately otherwise protected from the floor.

The RAVES I've been to are very different.  The VAST majority of the time
the DJ has been set up on a table at one end of the dance area, on the exact 
same level as the dancers.  None of the raves I've been to have had enough 
sound equipment to do like Basics did and have four corners of speaker stacks 
with the DJ in the middle (which is WAY cool in my opinion).

Now, there have been a *few* exceptions to this -- LIFE was held in a 
theatre, as was BOLD 2 (well in a performing arts space) and logistically
it made the most sense to put the DJs on the stage.  SPUTNIK I and II
also utilized stages, but all these were nearly a year ago.

I guess the best you could say about DJ positioning and the East Coast is
that the MEGA raves tend to use stages or at least slightly elevated 
platforms, but the smaller raves (500 and under) and renegades put the DJ on 
the floor.

Laura
(your East Coast connection [tm])

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 10:24:23 1993
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From: Handi-boy <jshiple@media.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9309091717.AA18222@media.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Wavelength TV show..Who was the smart drink vendor?
To: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 13:17:12 EDT
Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu (ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu),
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309082212.AA18947@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>; from "Lee Fogel" at Sep 8, 93 3:12 pm
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I saw some of the show at lunch the other day quite by accident.

I thought it was kinda lame--I didn't really know what was going on
for a while--some weird lady interviewing people at raves.  Then all
of a sudden she was in the studio telling this guy to kick it with
the best techno in the world.  It didn't sound like techno, more like
divaesque light house music (except the diva was a dude).

It was kinda interesting, but kinda cheesy...but probably a bit better than
other news programs offerings...

-John

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 10:28:37 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 10:28:35 -0700
In-Reply-To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
       "dj in the middle..." (Sep  9,  7:32am)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I personally love that arrangement, as long as the sound coming out of the
speaker stacks is strong enough to make it sound like one sound system
rather than 4 different sound systems.  I've seen parties fail because they
placed the speakers too far apart, leaving huge gaps in the sound in the middle,
when instead the middle should be the best place to be.  I liked the fact that
the speakers were elevated at Basics, too.  

The best example in my mind of having a DJ be in the middle of everything was
the setup used at 1015 Folsom for Come/Unity parties - the DJ would be in front
of the stage, and people were allowed to dance on the stage behind him, as well
as everywhere else.  What made it great was not only could people see the DJ's
from different angles, but they could see *each*other* while dancing, something
that I feel is lost in big warehouse parties where everyone is at the same
altitude and I can only see the 5 people surrounding me....

        Brian

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 10:30:48 1993
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To: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Cc: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends) 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 93 20:35:14 PDT."
             <9309090335.AA02583@koko.csustan.edu> 
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 93 10:31:05 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom4.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


>1.     when did outdoor events start happeneing?

I'm sure they've been going on for a long time. I've heard of outdoors
reggae soundsystem wars being set up in various parks in the UK.

Likewise in NYC, I've heard that soundsystems and DJ's would jam
outdoors in parks, back in the days when Hip-Hop was underground (early
eighties). There's even lyrics to that effect on a great "old school"
jam by D.ST on the "The Bronx is the Home of Hip Hop" cut (Celluloid NY
185):

	Stackin up speakers in the park 
	Settin up the system before it gets dark
	DJs just payin their dues
	Make hip hop fires to spread the news 
	They rock in the park in the sunshine
	Then rock in the dark in the wintertime

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
> >>Make NO mistake Mark, the house scene started in Detroit/Chi-town.  New
> >>York runs a close second (if not first by their estimates).  But it started
> >>HERE in the US first.  What the folks from the UK did was take the shit to
> >
> >Uh, that's an awfully america-centric view of things don't you think?
> 
> Not really, I do think it does address what his question was which is,
> where did rave start.  And I do beleive, from all accounts it started here,
> in the US.

All I'm trying to say is that the origin of anything is everything and it
is short-sighted to start gettin' all biblical and saying FrooFroo begat
Nimrod who begat Bootylicious. That just doesn't happen in sociocultural
events.

Perhaps as an event, "rave" has its closest origins in underground house
events. But they also have alot of similarities to early 70's underground
disco events too (as mentioned in that "Rave" documentary presented a while
back on A&E (TV)). My statements were about the music, the DJing, and the
style. In terms of music, there is a much broader coalescence of
backgrounds.

And, in my opinion, house is not the origin of the music. THings go farther
back than that. Back to old school jams. Back to reggae. Back to DUB. Back
to pre-saturday-night-fever disco. Back to classic early funk. Back to
parliament/funkadelic.

Perhaps in the background of your arguments is the following shameful
legacy of popular music -- the US was never able to take the pure
unadulterated black music forms (Blues, R&B) and make them popular. It
always had to take a transatlantic trip for the stuff to whiten up and
become packaged for commercial consumption in the US. The blues/r&b sources
from which the Beatles and the Stones and the Who derived their inspiration
rarely got rich or became popular. But the covers (often unacknowledged)
done by those groups did become popular in the mainstream....

Likewise, it took the UK to discover american underground funk and give it
the "Rare Groove" appelation. Groups like Massive Attack, The Young
Disciples, or Soul II Soul regularly expose a broad segment of people to
remakes of forgotten rare groove from the past.

In the background of my arguments is the fact that I find very little
"house" enjoyable for listening or dancing. Perhaps I'm one of those
straight white males that you speak of -- I too clear the floor when a
house jam comes on... (but I'm right there in full-enjoyment-mode when Rare
Groove, Classic Funk, Hip-Hop, Reggae or other afro-american-originated
musics come on the system).

> >with). In the late 60's and 70's, Reggae dancehall and soundsystems of
> >course spread to the east coast of the US and England as well.
> >Likewise, people that think that  rapping originated in america
> >completely forget that its roots originated from reggae DJ "toasting"
> >as well....
> 
> That last senetence reeks Neils.  Rapping has many , many different
> origins, most of them African in nature.  African-American's have been
> rapping waaaay before there were turntables, or electricity.  It goes back
> to scat, and even farther as a means of protest and message sending that
> was undetectable to the slave masters.  As for "toasting" I would say that
> than a form of signifying, bka the dozens.  African's have been doing that
> since before slavery.

I'm not trying to put together a PhD thesis on the subject, so please don't
give me shit about it. For one, my statement was an aside -- it would have
taken a few more paragraphs to complete my thoughts there. For example, the
"dissing" and "nasty" style of rap has it's origins in the music heard in
juke joints way way back (like >> 50 years ago).  Like I said above,
when it comes to culture, the origin of anything is everything.

I guess we have a legacy of flaming each other, so I guess you needed
to get in your last dig.

Flames aside, I'd love to hear more on your thoughts about the origins
of rapping. Some ravers may think it's not topical, but I do. 

> As for "toasting" I would say that
> than a form of signifying, bka the dozens.

Could you elaborate on "signifying" and "dozens"?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 10:34:04 1993
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From: Jessica Grace Wing <she@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <199309091733.KAA12461@cardinal.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rave History
To: plunkett@uclink.berkeley.edu (Matthew James Plunkett)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 10:33:58 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309090031.AA06018@uclink.berkeley.edu>; from "Matthew James Plunkett" at Sep 8, 93 5:31 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
> About six months ago I talked with a friend of a friend about raves etc.
> She's about 45 and has lived in SF her whole life.  She was telling
> me about all-night events in the Haight 20-something years ago.  From
> what I remember, the things she described sounded very familiar.
> An all-night party, colored lights, music (obviously not techno), lots
> of people not in their normal minds.  I wishh that I could remember
> more.
> 
> -matt
> 

Sounds like she may be talking about the "Acid Tests" put on by Ken
Kesey et al. in San Francisco in the 60's.  From the description of them
in _The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test_ (Tom Wolfe), they sound amazingly
like modern raves--basically they were dance parties where almost
all were tripping, with psychadelic light shows, loud dance music (albeit
by the Dead and Jefferson Airplane), and weird music made by Kesey and crew
from tape loops and micropones.  In addition the dress was similar--Kesey
and crew, at least, were into wearing crazy costumes often inspired by
cartoon characters--Kesey would dress up like Captain Marvel.  And there
is even a reference in the book to girls walking around blowing whistles!

The book is really cool and offers a different view of the "hippy" counter-
culture... Kesey's group of folks were really into technology and multi-
media stuff and not at all your typical "back to nature" regressive
stereotype.  In fact they would paint the trees around Kesey's enclave in
La Honda fluorescent colors... pretty unnatural but pretty ravey!

Jessica Wing

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 10:35:12 1993
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From: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Message-Id: <9309091735.AA23959@slack>
Subject: dj in the middle...
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF Raves)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 11:35:13 -0600 (MDT)
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> I hear on the east coast they usually have the DJ elevated above the
> crowd. I personally don't think I'd like this because of the
> separateness. Imagine Carlos having to be separated from the crowd :(.

This is troubling me for the Carlos/Garth show here on the 25th.  I was
thinking about doing the center-DJ thing after the discussion, but a raging
problem here now is that people pester the DJs!  They'll stick their heads
over the records to try and figure out what you're playing in some cases.  I
want to achieve separation without disconnection.  Any ideas?

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 11:00:58 1993
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From: Dana Watanabe <dwatanab@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Message-Id: <199309091800.AA00117@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Subject: rave history
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 11:00:38 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

dont try to find the beginning.. it aint gonna happen
at least not with looking deep into roots
cuz face it..
it started when the first person made noise by dropping a rock or something
and then started slapping it to see if she could do it again
and then found a gourd or something...

history is really important and i think it would be good to come
up with a definitive history of raves, but pick a starting point
cuz, yes, rapping comes from african roots, but it comes THROUGH jamaican
toasting... and then theres no mention of ska and i dont see how
you talk about reggae without ska.. etc etc.

house music and raves arent the same thing.. dont blurrr :) things..
keep them succinct... 

i think the best way is to pick a now and work backwords instead of picking
a then and working forwards..

but thats just me

 ,
dana

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 11:08:18 1993
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From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309091808.AA11932@pilot.njin.net>
To: dionf@ere.umontreal.ca (Francois Dion)
Cc: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
In-Reply-To: <9309091713.AA03590@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
References: <9309091632.AA07831@pilot.njin.net>
	<9309091713.AA03590@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

If having people next to the DJ causes so many problems, then is it
geographic? In all the events I've been to in the SF bay area, I've
rarely seen problems. Maybe it's a different scene altogether in other
places in the country, I dunno. Maybe I've found my niche :).

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 11:19:44 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 11:19:33 -0700
In-Reply-To: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
       "dj in the middle..." (Sep  9, 11:35am)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown),
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF Raves)
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Sep 9, 11:35am, you proclaimed:
} This is troubling me for the Carlos/Garth show here on the 25th.  I was
} thinking about doing the center-DJ thing after the discussion, but a raging
} problem here now is that people pester the DJs!  They'll stick their heads
} over the records to try and figure out what you're playing in some cases.  I
} want to achieve separation without disconnection.  Any ideas?

Maybe raise them enough so that people won't be trying to read the records,
but so that they're close enough to the floor to acheive eye contact.  Or
if it's really bad have all the DJ's wear T-shirts that say, "I'm a DJ, NOT A
JUKEBOX".  

	Brian



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 11:25:42 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 14:22:55 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309091822.AA12633@pilot.njin.net>
To: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF Raves)
Subject: dj in the middle...
In-Reply-To: <9309091735.AA23959@slack>
References: <9309091735.AA23959@slack>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Pete Ashdown writes:
 > This is troubling me for the Carlos/Garth show here on the 25th.  I was
 > thinking about doing the center-DJ thing after the discussion, but a raging
 > problem here now is that people pester the DJs!  They'll stick their heads
 > over the records to try and figure out what you're playing in some cases.  I
 > want to achieve separation without disconnection.  Any ideas?

Whenever I do this to Susan, she usually smiles and yells out to me
what's playing, as well as what record store to find it in :) :) :).

If you separate Carlos from the crowd, you might miss out on the most
awesome thing you've ever seen. That hallway scene at Wicked was the
best craziest most positive vibe I've ever experienced. I was smiling
so hard my face hurt :). Carlos really gets into a crazy dancing crowd
right in front of his face, so make that possible.

My recommendation: Get him as close to the crowd as possible. If
leaning is a problem, maybe use a large (and very heavily weighted)
table. 

BTW, sorry I missed you, Pete. Let me know next time you're in the bay
area :).

Sean


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 11:38:17 1993
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From: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 11:37:27 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sean asks if having people too near the DJ is a geographic problem.

Well, not really, except that your average raver in SF is *significantly*
older than your average raver back East, and it is often the case that
increased age brings with it a greater sense of responsibility for ones'
own actions.

Also, at Basics, even though the DJ was in the middle, he was still elevated
on a small platform and protected from people swarming him/bumping him by
the table itself and several stacks of equipment, plus by the mixing 
monitors themselves, so it's not like he was out there in the open with
his crate there for people to look at and his water bottle there to trip
over (both of which happened to me at the first YSH I spun at in San
Francisco).

Besides, no matter how well you hide the DJ, or how well you put them in
the middle of the action, a *LARGE* PART of the DJs connection with the
dancers depends on the DJ himself/herself.  I have been in a situation
twice where I was on a balcony spinning above the floor, yet both times
felt completely connected because I was looking at the crowd a lot, dancing 
with them (in the booth) between mixes, and smiling and laughing and checking on
my friends and stuff.  Similarly, I have been in the situation where I was
pretty much in the open, but was distant and disconnected (mostly due to
nerves I'd say), and would hardly look up or smile and would spend time
between mixes rummaging in my crate.

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 11:57:10 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309091857.AA23261@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: OOps (South Bay Lunch)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 11:57:27 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

OOOPS! I was in the lunch line in the cafeteria , when I remembered
about posting this reminder! ( Elizabeth - when are you going to
get back online and do this chore again?  :-\ , :-)  )
			Larry Ching / larryc@netcom.com  
-- 

Just a quick reminder to let everyone know about
today's SFR South Bay Lunch ...

When: Thursday, September 9th  
Time: 12.00 noon
Where: Greer Park, Palo Alto

Directions:

* From 101 (South or North) take the Oregon Expressway Exit

* Left at the first signal - W. Bayshore
  (it's a frontage road that takes you south again)

* Follow this road approx. 1/4 mile (pass apartment complexes on right)
  
* You will see the park on your right hand side. Park in the first
  carpark to your right.

* We'll meet on the grassy knoll , behind the round baseball fence.

Bring lunch, toys, yourselves!




From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 12:00:48 1993
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From: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
Message-Id: <9309091853.AA28416@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
To: jsl@netcom.com
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 12:53:09 -0600 (MDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers)
In-Reply-To: <9309091432.AA15040@netcom.netcom.com> from "John S. Lee" at Sep 9, 93 07:32:03 am
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> How do you feel about the DJ being in the middle of the dance floor?

I really liked the way Basics was set up: DJ in the middle and 4 corners 
of sound set away from the walls allowing traffic to flow around, rather
than through, the dance floor.

I never really understood why the DJ was hidden away off in the corner
somewhere.  I personally get a lot of energy from being able to see the DJ
while I'm dancing.  I'm not into the DJ worship thing like a few at Basics
were (the ones glued to the tables with their mounths hanging open :), but 
I do like being able to watch a good DJ in action without having to crowd
around the tables with everyone else.  

It's also cool to have the DJ immersed in the middle of the vibe she/he is
creating.  When positioned in between a couple of main stacks, the DJ seems
more like a controller than a channeller.

Of course, I think this setup only works for larger venues with lots of
room leftover for the dance floor.


-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 12:07:57 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 12:09:32 -0800
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Subject: new product and closeout
Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu.socal-raves@UCSD.EDU.mw-raves@engin.umich.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I hope this message is considered unique enough to send via the lists.

Theres a tiny bit of Intellex left that I'm selling out at a sale price of
$30/83 servings (as quantity allows). I'm trying to finance a new product.
(which will be not so bulk oriented, and better in some ways,but not as
inexpensive - my bulk mixes have proven to be not very profitable, so this
is
an opportunity that is really not to be repeated.)This is the same product that
was served at the Lucasfilm/ILM party at SIGGRAPH - good for choline/DMAE
lovers..You would pay 3-6 times more to buy similar amounts of all the
nutrients
separately.(one of the reasons I haven't been able to make this product
profitable) It contains roughly 3 times the amino acid and vitamin content
per serving as the other products available, at a substantially lower cost.
Its excellent as an afternoon choline drink..(mixes well with juice)good
for knowledge workers..etc.I only have a small amount left, and as it
stands
right now,it wont be manufactured again.(Unused checks or money orders will
be returned immediately....but I'd act soon.)

Shipping is $6.00 for the first bottle,$1.00 for each additional bottle.
Calif residents please add 8.25% tax For fastest service,use a postal money
order made out to Nutrient Cafe Wholesale.(address:PO Box 170156,SF,CA
94117)

This is for people who are already familiar with my products,so _please_ dont
write me asking for a description,etc. Intellex is similar to Source
Natural's "Mental Edge" a widely available product. (except its far cheaper 
and stronger)..  if you're curious about trying a similar product,
buy a small bottle of Mental Edge and try about 8 tablets of that..
(roughly equivalent to one serving of Intellex) 
-Chris.
-
Chris Beaumont
ccat@netcom.com
ccat@casa.stanford.edu           public key available via finger


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 13:23:30 1993
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From: Fred Heutte <phred@well.sf.ca.us>
To: jsl@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  dj in the middle...
Message-Id: <93Sep9.132231pdt.14163-4@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Thu, 9 Sep 1993 13:22:24 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I'm not so crazy about putting the DJ in the middle (for one thing, it
increases turntable vibration as compared to being slightly behind
the perpendicular axis of the speakers, which is the usual place).
Also, it makes the DJs even more the center of attention (me, I've
been accused of being a 'DJ slut' recently ;-).

But one thing I agree with jsl 100% about is the superiority of the
four-corner sound approach.  I wish this was done more often --
especially at outdoor events where I've never seen it done (though
someone told me it was done that way at a Gathering last summer?).

My all-time favorite sound system hands down bar none was the one at
the old Trocadero circa January 1993, which basically took the four-
corners concept to the max.  The sound in the center was loud, clean
and KICKIN'!

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 13:31:02 1993
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From: Fred Heutte <phred@well.sf.ca.us>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net, dionf@ere.umontreal.ca
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <93Sep9.133001pdt.14182-2@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Thu, 9 Sep 1993 13:29:59 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Responding to Francois' comments, it's pretty universal in SF to have
the DJs at dance floor level -- in most warehouse and even club situations
that's the only option anyway, except at places like 177 Townsend which
have permanent DJ booths.  I much prefer this to what I've found elsewhere,
for example at the Depot here in Portland, where the DJ is on this huge
elevated platform above the dancefloor (the old disco style).  While
security is a concern, of course, I very rarely see anyone jostle the
DJ's table -- that indicates a level of respect and awareness in the crowd
that's one of the most attractive attributes of this scene.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 13:43:23 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 13:41:22 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Fred Heutte's message of Thu, 9 Sep 1993 13:22:24 -0700 <93Sep9.132231pdt.14163-4@well.sf.ca.us>
Subject:  dj in the middle...
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

fred heutte writes:

>But one thing I agree with jsl 100% about is the superiority of the
>four-corner sound approach.  I wish this was done more often --
>especially at outdoor events where I've never seen it done (though
>someone told me it was done that way at a Gathering last summer?).

yeah, last year's Let Freedom Rave had speakers in a ring.
unfortunately, if you stood anywhere other than right next to a stack,
you got all sorts of horrible delayed echoes from the other stacks.

it was a mess.  i think this is why most 4-corner setups don't work
out.

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always note the sequencer - this will never let us down.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 14:20:04 1993
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From: Jeffrey Moore <jmoore@well.sf.ca.us>
To: inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
Message-Id: <93Sep9.141858pdt.14183-1@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Thu, 9 Sep 1993 14:18:53 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The only problem with putting the dj in the middle of the dance floor is
that it will fuck up the dj's monitoring.  The PA's are usually big and
loud, and my personal experience is that they are lousy monitor mixes and
can be distracting, not to mention potential ear damage (the dj doesn't have
the ability to leave if his or her ears become really fatigued).  All in
all, the music will most likely suffer if the dj (or any performer for that
matter) isn't comfortable with the monitor mix.

-Jeff

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 14:32:36 1993
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From: Jeffrey Moore <jmoore@well.sf.ca.us>
To: jsl@netcom.com, phred@well.sf.ca.us, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  dj in the middle...
Message-Id: <93Sep9.143034pdt.14183-1@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Thu, 9 Sep 1993 14:30:20 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Four corner sound is fine if you have a quad mix (which isn't very common),
but for stereo sound, you are basically destroying all the hard work that
the audio engineer goes to in building a stereo mix.  I've been an engineer
for a while now and stereo imaging is one of the things you work hardest on.
For my money, I much prefer an A-B speaker setup.  They're easier to work
with and a more faithful representation of the recording.

If you want to add a multichannel placement device to your PA rig, that's
another thing...

-JEff


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 14:38:47 1993
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From: megatest!kermit!preiter@uu2.psi.com (Pete Reiter)
Message-Id: <9309092109.AA25469@kermit.megaeng>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  dj in the middle...
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> But one thing I agree with jsl 100% about is the superiority of the
> four-corner sound approach.  I wish this was done more often --
> especially at outdoor events where I've never seen it done (though
> someone told me it was done that way at a Gathering last summer?).

I remember that. The speakers were so far apart that depending on where
you stood, there was a noticable delay between the 4 stacks. Not quite 
optimal, but trippy as all hell. This year's July 4th gathering had better
sound.

						Pete

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 14:45:55 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 14:45:01 PDT
Cc: sfraves-calendar@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFR Calendar)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Hmm...Vision is the only large event I have for this weekend which will
be near SF; besides that, I went to Corduroy City last week and thought
it was pretty good.  Several new things are happening on Sundays now, and
I heard rumors that Golden Gate Park might happen on Sunday, too.

If anyone finds any other info for events this weekend, post it!


*****************************************************************************
UPCOMING RAVES IN THE SF/BAY AREA                     	    Updated: 09.09.93
*****************************************************************************

Friday, September 10th - funkengruven
	Doc Martin  Doran  Mark Flores  Matt Williams  Ali  Joe Harp
	$7 presale-$10 day of-$8 w/can of food at the door
	209.244.VOID	209.228.GRUV	

Saturday, September 11th - Vision
	Josh  Jeno  Tony  Doran  Garth  Rick Preston
	415-267-4800	408-236-2022

Thursday, September 16th - Surface magazine release party
	[not really a rave, but DJ lineup looks housey]
	Jan Cooley, Neon Leon, Tony Largo, Aaron O, & Nadia on two floors
	DV8 - 540 Howard. Doors at 10pm.  $7 w/invite.

Friday, September 17th - Zoe - (415)561-1448

Saturday, September 18th - Universe - probably not happening

Saturday, September 18th -- "join us for the REVIVAL of the psychedelic groove"
        "one world / one groove" 	415-588-2171 

Thursday, September 23rd - Delusions of Grandeur opens (see weeklies)

Saturday, September 25th - Awaken
	Jeno  Spun  Tony  Josh  Doran  Joe Harp
	near Stockton - buses from SF will be available
	415-442-7922  	209-569-7867	916-552-1599

Saturday, September 25th - HOME
	Markie  Jon Williams  Simon  DRC  Galen  Jordan
	415.647.4788

Saturday, October 2nd - Origin
	Doran  Spun  Josh  Tony  Jas
	415.905.8831

Sunday, October 3rd - SFR presents: Connection Earth
	Marx Meadow, Golden Gate Park!  Noon-5pm
	DJs Lee  Markie  Jon D.; audio by SoundVision
	info: 415.487.8497	

Friday, October 15th or Saturday, October 16th - Liquid Air 
	(presented by Fluid Groove!  Exact date and other details to follow)
	DJs Tamara, Laura, Jon D.
	info: 415.487.8497	

Saturday, October 16th - Passage
	Noel  Ghost  Dave Alga  Dolphi  Rob  Ted
	510-505-8841

Saturday, November 20th - Come Together

Penelope's Web 2 - at the same location as the first, more details to follow...
	415-765-7671

Elmo will also be also presenting another party in September, more details
	to follow.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        People who want to send money, cards and other goodwill 
	thoughts to Malachy can make checks payable to the:
                M. O'Brien Healing Fund
                1388 Haight st #117
                San Francisco CA. 94112
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be-AT INFO LINE: 415-626-4087. 
The Elmo line - (415) 884-ABCD
Ameba - 415-750-9368
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some weeklies - whether or not they count as real "raves" is 
debatable, but they were advertised by flyers and the music could be
good. If anyone can provide reviews of them, i.e., their appropriateness 
in being on the list, let me know.  Also let me know when any of them end...

Thursdays

SFR South Bay Lunch - noon at Greer Park in Palo Alto.  
	e-mail larryc@netcom.com for directions.
YOUR SISTERS' HOUSE - 9pm discussion - 10pm-4am funkygrooves - 415-765-7670
Deep Space - 200 N. 1st Street, SJ - 21+ - Rick Preston, others
Universal Groove - Carlos, Ghost, Steve Mitchell, Dave Alga, Franko
	$5.  415.281.5913  510.869.2727
Overnight Xpress - 1 Bolivar Drive, Berkeley - 415.266.8232  408.236.2032
Ajax - Acid Jazz w/Harry Who (San Jose)
Eclipse - 2520 Camino Diablo, Walnut Creek. open till 4, 18+
Delusions of Grandeur - every other Thursday - Jon Williams, Robbie & Scott
	Hardkiss.  Ambience by SpaceTime Continuum.  Visuals by Synergy.
	10pm - 6am, 1015 Folsom. (begins 9/23)

Fridays

Mission Rock - 817 China Basin - $5 - 21+
Zanzibar - DJ Josh. 415-695-7887.  21+.  842 Valencia @ 19th St.
Life - Sound Factory - 525 Harrison @ 1st, SF    415.543.1300   21+
Corduroy City - $5 - 11-6am - 415.974.9715
Nectar - Ernie/Josh/Hardkiss/Carlos/Dutch/Ghost/Buck/Markem X - 415.905.8801
	540 Howard (DV8)
Dig! - Cleo's Cafe @ Haight&Pierce. Acid Jazz & deep house w/Charlotte
	and Rasoul.  5-10pm, no cover, all ages.

Saturdays 

Housing Project - 6am-2pm - DJ Dani & guests - End Up 401 6th @ Harrison, 21+ 
Deep House Sessions at the Groove Station  1141 Polk St  6-9 pm  FREE
Cornbread - acid jazz, house - noon - blondies, 540 valencia@16th 415.487.6246
Funky Underground - Dimensions, S 1st St, San Jose 408.920.1762
Rhythm - Neon Leon, Jan Cooley, Markie - 177 Townsend - 21+ - 415-281-3344
The Fridge - on hold - $7 - 21+ - 415-487-6305
Aurgasm - on hold - collective T.A.Z. - $5 before 12 - 415.974.9363

Sundays

Boogie Buffet - 1015 Folsom - 6am-2pm - 415-979-8845
EndUp from 6am - 6th & Harrison
Cleo's Cafe - Haight & Pierce - informal YSH gathering - 2pm-8pm - free!
Once is Never Enough - $5, "6:00 am til we hit the beach", 415-905-6443
	at the Stone (from Recycle)
Bulletproof boat party - 5-9pm pier 40 (last Sunday of each month) 
        Tickets at both Bulletproof locations 629 Haight (255.7168)
        & upstairs at BPM  1141 Polk (567.8439)
Spundae - various guest DJs - 55 Natoma  
the ambient club - spike's, 8th & Minna, 10 till 2 am
Tranceformation - 201 9th @ Howard - $3, 21+ - 415-267-6189
The Sky High Club - Djs Louis Walden & Mike Manahan
	Sir Francis Drake Hotel, 450 Powell. 9pm-3am  415 392-7755 ext.2212
Punch Drunk - 2001 Union St @ Buchanan - 6pm - 415-776-7036
Sunday Joy - 8th & Kirkham (in the Sunset) - 2pm-7pm - $2
Deep Forest - Carlos, Dutch, & Guests - 7am-? - 18+ - $3 - (where?)

Mondays 
Depth Chamber - temporarily on hold - 9-2am, 21+, (415)241-1560
Pepper.  Deep House with Buck, Josh, Chris Lum. 668 Haight, 10-2AM, $3, 21+. 
Jazid Up - acid jazz (now every week) w/Mark Farina, Thomas, Ammon and Is
	$3.  Club Oasis, 278 11th St, 21+. 415-905-8811
FreeLife - every other Monday at F/X in San Jose.

Tuesdays 

Together - Basement of Big Heart City (339 Jessie) 415-979-8825
Progress - 150 S.2nd St in San Jose (Club Oz, lower level entrance).
	21+, 408-236-2284.  DJs Julius, Rick Preston, Leonard & guests

Wednesdays 

Housing Project - DJs Jeno & Josh. 9-330am @ the EndUp, 401 6th @ harrison 21+
Recycle - 16th & Harrison - 18+ - 415-599-3750.
Boing - 201 Ninth at Howard - $2 b-4 12, $3 after - DJ Bugie w/DRC
Fetish - Surge  Bones  Tony  Doran  - Thunder Bay, Berkeley - $5/all ages
	415.647.GRUV
Mystery School - 525 Harrison @ 1st (Sound Factory) - 21+, 11pm - sunrise
	415-337-4905

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONNECTION 2 TAPES >> 4 cassettes >> 6 hours >> complete live house
DJs: Moonpup, Scott Hardkiss, Jon Drukman, Lee and Blurrr 
contact Bob Ramstad (boccibob%groovy@us.oracle.com) 
$15 + $5 shipping, $5 of which goes to the Malachy O'Brien healing fund 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

RADIO SHOWS: 
Saturday mornings 1-3:30am - Mescalina, KALX 90.7
Sunday mornings 1-3:30am - Minor Minor KALX 90.7
Tuesdays noon-3pm - "London Jamaica" w/Unknown & guest DJs  KZSU, 90.1 FM. 
Tuesdays 7:30-10:00pm - 103.3fm KSCU Pete Gracious + special guest djs
Wednesdays 10pm - KFJC, Foothill College (Santa Clara)
Thursdays, 7-9 on 91.3 FM KCPR San Luis Obispo - Beyond Techno, DJ EZ Whip.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone has info on any other events, submit them! I can't possibly hope
to get all the info every week. 

Brian Behlendorf, bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu, 510-649-0351 and
Derek Chung, dhchung@us.oracle.com, 415-506-6195


To subscribe/unsubscribe to the calendar mailing list, send e-mail to
majordomo@sfraves.stanford.edu with either the line

subscribe sfraves-calendar   or
unsubscribe sfraves-calendar   
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 o derek chung  o  oracle graphics  o  dhchung@us.oracle.com  o 415.506.6195 o
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 14:59:27 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 14:58:38 -0700
From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309092158.AA22755@koko.csustan.edu>
To: jsl@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  dj in the middle...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I thought it was pretty cool set up too, but in a way it makes it hard to dance bece 
because so many people walk back and forth to the DJ's booth to either see who 
is playing the set, or just to watch him spin. Other than that I think every-
body at Basics (including myself) had a great time.

Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 16:13:18 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 13:16:18 PDT
From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309092016.AA01633@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net, dionf@ere.umontreal.ca
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


If having people next to the DJ causes so many problems, then is it
geographic? In all the events I've been to in the SF bay area, I've
rarely seen problems. Maybe it's a different scene altogether in other
places in the country, I dunno. Maybe I've found my niche :).

Sean

------------

I "pester" DJ's, but usually they don't mind.  4 ex., at the last YSH
I heard a record I want to own;  I asked the DJ what it was and she told me
as well as showing me the jacket, etc.  rick preston, on the other hand,
tried to (tried yes, succeeded no) bite my head off for the same thing,
but I couldn't have cared less (PS: Rick, if you're out there, I found the
rekkid in spite of your ass!!).  I'd definitely say that the YSH scene is
a niche I can handle...and the DJ's have been really good every time I've 
gone.

*

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 16:13:50 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309091847.AA01501@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: glenn.fajardo@aldus.com, sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re:  Crystal's Impact on the Community
Cc: nw-raves@wimsey.bc.ca
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



hey,

Having been around during the punk days in SF ('80-present), I've
witnessed several close associates turn into bona-fide reptiles
using that stuff.  I won't say you shouldn't *ever* do it, BUT if
you use it in ANY regular way, it WILL take a heavy toll on both
your body and mind.  Much of the complaining about changes to or
lack of a (friendly) vibe are consistent with its use.  The fatigue
it produces will make it very hard for anyone to be friendly, not
to mention the neurotic characteristics that usually accompany its
use.  I don't want to preach "just say no" BS, but it IS very strong,
very available, and if used w/out caution, VERY DANGEROUS.

nuff said........

*

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 16:14:07 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309092006.AA01624@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: mayer@netcom4.netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Cc: jsl@netcom.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Flames aside, I'd love to hear more on your thoughts about the origins
of rapping. Some ravers may think it's not topical, but I do. 

----------------

me too, let's have it.  i hear what john was saying; the oral tradition 
of african cultures (including but not limited to signifying, and other
braggadocio oriented and/or nasty lyrical forms) is centuries old by the
accounts I've heard from net.scholars and others....say do any of you
know the funky-music people?  Russell Potter might have some good info
on this, may I fuse these forums briefly?  I'll be diplomatic and wait
for a response, vote with your mouth!!

*

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 16:22:20 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 19:22:08 EDT
From: Monica Tauriello <monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: monicat has moved
Message-Id: <CMM-RU.1.3.747616928.monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

i have moved into a new apartment and i posted the wrong number it is 641
4703...also i have unsubed from sfraves...but i can be found at ysh every
thursday...big hugs...monicat

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 16:32:41 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 16:30:41 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Chris Hart's message of Thu, 9 Sep 93 13:16:18 PDT <9309092016.AA01633@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
Subject: dj in the middle...
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

chris hart writes:
>rick preston, on the other hand,
>tried to (tried yes, succeeded no) bite my head off for the same thing,
>but I couldn't have cared less (PS: Rick, if you're out there, I found the
>rekkid in spite of your ass!!).

i'll tell him you said so.

btw, rick is usually pretty mellow.  i don't know what was going down
at your particular time but he has always been really friendly,
outgoing and pleasant to me.  and he always shows me his records if
i'm curious!

are you sure it was rick?  it seems awfully out of character for him.
did you interfere with him in some way?

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always note the sequencer - this will never let us down.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 16:38:40 1993
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From: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
Message-Id: <9309092338.AA26828@orion.sybgate.sybase.com>
To: hart@ntmtv.com
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Content-Length: 380
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> rick preston, on the other hand,
> tried to (tried yes, succeeded no) bite my head off for the same thing,
> but I couldn't have cared less (PS: Rick, if you're out there, I found the
> rekkid in spite of your ass!!).

If you had asked him *after* his set he wouldn't have minded telling you what
it was.  Ruining a DJ's concentration by pestering him/her is incredibly rude.


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 16:47:39 1993
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From: Dana Watanabe <dwatanab@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Message-Id: <199309092347.AA09706@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Subject: DJ's
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 16:47:27 PDT
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well the basic stuff about people bumping and what not is understandable
it SUCKS to have someone do something stupid like mess around under the
coffin and lift his head up to hit the needle up about 30 secs before
joachim fades out taylors last song... but anyhow..

id say that one thing that was mentioned last year in SD was that
some DJ's would walk up to the turn tables to snag titles so 
they could play them as well.. to the point where people
had friggin note pads... and would jsut copy it all down
(in response people wrote wierd stuff on their white labels
and sometimes covered over the real labels with white labels)

i think its a much better idea to maybe look genereally at the label
and figure out what it sounds like and what the song before/after is
and then talk to the DJ afterwards... im sure she'd appreciate it then
more than if she were in the middle of something...
but thats if you dont know the DJ

if you know the DJ then obviously do whatever you think is okay
i know when its okay to bug the DJs i know (ie talk to) and when i should wait
till they are more settled down and stuff...

 ,
dana

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 16:58:02 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
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Subject: PIHKAL/2C-B
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

	People seem to want PIHKAL's stuff on 2C-B typed up. When I
made the offer I forgot that I'm really busy right now. I can get it
done, but it will take a while. Maybe someone with OCR access can do it.

- -- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

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From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 17:12:25 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 93 17:12:17 -0700
From: vivianm@src.dec.com
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Chris Hart writes:


>I "pester" DJ's, but usually they don't mind.  4 ex., at the last YSH
>I heard a record I want to own;  I asked the DJ what it was and she told me
>as well as showing me the jacket, etc.  rick preston, on the other hand,
>tried to (tried yes, succeeded no) bite my head off for the same thing,
>but I couldn't have cared less (PS: Rick, if you're out there, I found the
>rekkid in spite of your ass!!).  I'd definitely say that the YSH scene is
>a niche I can handle...and the DJ's have been really good every time I've 
>gone.

Maybe you shouldn't pester DJ's when they are totally busy.  I couldn't 
imagine Rick Preston biting your head off, much less getting upset, 
unless he was totally into what he was doing and you caught him at 
the wrong time.  IMHO he is one of the coolest, friendliest DJ's 
that I have met so far. 




(just my 2 cents worth)


vivianm


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 17:38:14 1993
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From: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
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To: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com
Subject: Re:  dj in the middle...
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At Basics the DJs were in a DJ booth that was in the middle of the dance floor.
The booth was elevated about three feet above the ground, so the crowd could
easily see the DJ, and the DJ could easily see the crowd, but there was still
a physical separation between them.


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 17:41:59 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 12:20:45 -0800
To: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie Lawrence)
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At 11:57 AM 9/9/93 -0700, Larry Ching wrote:
   ^^^^^^^^
>When: Thursday, September 9th  
>Time: 12.00 noon
       ^^^^^^^^^^
>Where: Greer Park, Palo Alto

Someone after my own heart!

jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 17:59:56 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Anyone 4 funkengrooven
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Is anybody going to this on friday??

What about Vision?? let me know so I can look for you guys and gals.

Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 18:20:17 1993
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From: andys@ingres.com (Andrew Sherman)
Message-Id: <9309100120.AA13197@skate.ingres.com>
Subject: NON-RAVE: seeking Sun trackball...
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF raves mailing list)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 18:20:03 -0700 (PDT)
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Hi Folks,

This isn't rave related, but does anyone have any experience of using a
Sun with a trackball? I have some sort of typing injury and a trackball
may help. All advice welcome!

Thanks

-Andrew

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 18:41:31 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309100141.AA14732@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: NON-RAVE: seeking Sun trackball...
To: andys@ingres.com (Andrew Sherman)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 18:41:44 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309100120.AA13197@skate.ingres.com>; from "Andrew Sherman" at Sep 9, 93 6:20 pm
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Andrew Sherman sez:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> This isn't rave related, but does anyone have any experience of using a
> Sun with a trackball? I have some sort of typing injury and a trackball
> may help. All advice welcome!
> 

The only pointing device I've ever seen connected directly (i.e.
non-X-station) to a Sun is the lame cursed weak optical mouse Sun
ships with SPARCStations.  If you happen to be on an X-Terminal, you
have a number of options, including ditching the thing so you can get
a Mac or NeXT or PC w/Xservers and a Kensington Trackball ( a very
good one, IMHO.)  If you are slaved to the Sun console (God help ya),
you may be screwed (financially or situationally or both) in this
case.  Sun isn't exactly noted for its i/o.

-H-


-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey, DoD #0944				   howard@netcom.com
         "24 hr. Banking?  I don't have time for that." - S. Wright
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 18:49:37 1993
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From: andys@ingres.com (Andrew Sherman)
Message-Id: <9309100149.AA13356@skate.ingres.com>
Subject: Re: Dance History (was Rave History)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF raves mailing list)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 18:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9309081657.AA01391@netcom4.netcom.com> from "wicked@netcom.com" at Sep 8, 93 09:57:15 am
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> From: wicked@netcom.com
> Subject: Dance History (was Rave History)
> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 93 9:57:15 PDT
[...]

> 	During the Eighties in London a warehouse party scene developed
> that featured soul music ie. Hip-Hop, Disco, Uptempo R&B, Rare Groove,
> Jazz Funk etc. This directly gave rise to Pirate Radio, notably Kiss FM -
> a weekend station that was listened to by over a million people. There has
> always been a strong underground soul scene in England ever since James
> Brown & Co . invented the Funk.

I used to go to some of these warehouse parties in London.  They are
still the best parties/clubs that I have ever been to.  The one we used
go to most was called "Battlebridge Road" - it was just in a squatted
warehouse near Kings Cross, down by the gasometers. This was in
1983/84.  It was lit by one light bulb, a UV lamp, in the center of the
room. The toilet (singular) was broken. But what a place. It had non
ego-oriented DJs - Sean Oliver was one I think, Dave Dorrell another?.
And it was gree-e-e-a-t!

The next year was the big year for pirate radio. Solar FM!

-Andrew


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 19:13:15 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309100100.AA00975@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com, csc@pilot.njin.net
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
> If you separate Carlos from the crowd, you might miss out on the most
> awesome thing you've ever seen. That hallway scene at Wicked was the
> best craziest most positive vibe I've ever experienced. I was smiling
> so hard my face hurt :). Carlos really gets into a crazy dancing crowd
> right in front of his face, so make that possible.
> 
> My recommendation: Get him as close to the crowd as possible. If
> leaning is a problem, maybe use a large (and very heavily weighted)
> table. 
> 
> BTW, sorry I missed you, Pete. Let me know next time you're in the bay
> area :).

Well you could hire a 280 pound experienced raver to dance infrot of
the tables and keep everyone else at bay :)

All kidding asside, I dance pretty wild and have NEVER hit the turntables
or smacked someone by accident.  As you get experience you learn how
to move through a crowd and not do this.

I know some DJs like Garth have thanked me for dancing close by the
tables when they are in a strange venue, they feel safer, and I'm definitely
generating vibe and sending them immediate feedback since they know my
patterns and call easily tell how what they are playing is effecting me.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 19:15:44 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309100050.AA00961@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, pashdown@slack.sim.es.com
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

HEy Pete I was in SLC two days ago!
I didn`t have your number else I would have called.
I was with a new girlfriend who I was helping drive from
Denver to the Bay Area.

Nice city, very clean and pretty... Um, where
do you have raves at?

I dont mean any harm but it seemed pretty "white bread"
as in Wonder and not too much black pepper, it burns my mouth.

I was dressed as I usually am, and my friend who is a yoga teacher
tends to dress more like me and we got a lot of stares from the
Nuclear American Families(tm).  It would seem to me that any rave activity
would be pounced on tout de suite by the authorities.

But all in all It was a pretty place, crossing Utah from Colorado was 
INTENSE, those rock formations were wild!  I can see why UFOs like to
hang out there.  Do you guys have raves out on thoses buttes?
Is all of that "private land?"

Good luck on the Garth/Carlos gig.
maybe I have to come out there again sometime soon.

				- G
			"make that a veggie burrito with extra chilies"
			Glad to be back in the bay area.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 20:05:21 1993
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 20:05:22 -0700
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To: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom4.netcom.com>
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>> >Uh, that's an awfully america-centric view of things don't you think?
>> 
>> Not really, I do think it does address what his question was which is,
>> where did rave start.  And I do beleive, from all accounts it started here,
>> in the US.
>
>All I'm trying to say is that the origin of anything is everything and it
>is short-sighted to start gettin' all biblical and saying FrooFroo begat
>Nimrod who begat Bootylicious. That just doesn't happen in sociocultural
>events.

Right on, and agreed.  I especially like the Bootylicious, you funkin
funkster you (you got that from ooooold Parliment non?)

>
>Perhaps as an event, "rave" has its closest origins in underground house
>events. But they also have alot of similarities to early 70's underground
>disco events too (as mentioned in that "Rave" documentary presented a while
>back on A&E (TV)). My statements were about the music, the DJing, and the
>style. In terms of music, there is a much broader coalescence of
>backgrounds.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.  It seems as though with "rave" it kind of
happened everywhere, in different forms, at roughyl the same time.  If not
that then there is some serious overlap, which makes the job of saying "who
begat who" even more ludicrous.

>
>And, in my opinion, house is not the origin of the music. THings go farther
>back than that. Back to old school jams. Back to reggae. Back to DUB. Back
>to pre-saturday-night-fever disco. Back to classic early funk. Back to
>parliament/funkadelic.

Keep goin' back bro...I think that Dana's comment about the first idea of a
drum is where this will all lead to...but in any case house is definitely a
conglomeration of musical styles that overlap each other in many ways.  I
have heard plenty of "house/rave" songs take an old Jazz hit from Miles, a
couple from Trane, the Funk of Parliment (btw that WAS Bootylicious ;), and
The GFOS James Brown.  The stuff is a potpourri if nothing else.

>
>Perhaps in the background of your arguments is the following shameful
>legacy of popular music -- the US was never able to take the pure
>unadulterated black music forms (Blues, R&B) and make them popular. It
>always had to take a transatlantic trip for the stuff to whiten up and
>become packaged for commercial consumption in the US. The blues/r&b sources
>from which the Beatles and the Stones and the Who derived their inspiration
>rarely got rich or became popular. But the covers (often unacknowledged)
>done by those groups did become popular in the mainstream....
>
>Likewise, it took the UK to discover american underground funk and give it
>the "Rare Groove" appelation. Groups like Massive Attack, The Young
>Disciples, or Soul II Soul regularly expose a broad segment of people to
>remakes of forgotten rare groove from the past.

Right on!  Preach my man!!! :) :) :)

>
>In the background of my arguments is the fact that I find very little
>"house" enjoyable for listening or dancing. Perhaps I'm one of those
>straight white males that you speak of -- I too clear the floor when a
>house jam comes on... (but I'm right there in full-enjoyment-mode when Rare
>Groove, Classic Funk, Hip-Hop, Reggae or other afro-american-originated
>musics come on the system).

Oh, I didn't say anything about white, just straight, but I do get your
point.  I must say that when I first got into house/rave (see I used it
without ""), I HATED that diva shit.  Now I love it, as long as it has a
strong beat (i.e.boomin bass) and trippy in some way. For instance (please
forgive me, I'm a promoter, not a DJ ;) that "Been along time..." track
(outta Miami me thinks), and others like it are on my boogie list.  I love
stuff like that (btw Markie does that song special justice with 3
turntables ;)!

>> That last senetence reeks Neils.  Rapping has many , many different
>> origins, most of them African in nature.  African-American's have been
>> rapping waaaay before there were turntables, or electricity.  It goes back
>> to scat, and even farther as a means of protest and message sending that
>> was undetectable to the slave masters.  As for "toasting" I would say that
>> than a form of signifying, bka the dozens.  African's have been doing that
>> since before slavery.
>
>I'm not trying to put together a PhD thesis on the subject, so please don't
>give me shit about it. For one, my statement was an aside -- it would have
>taken a few more paragraphs to complete my thoughts there. For example, the
>"dissing" and "nasty" style of rap has it's origins in the music heard in
>juke joints way way back (like >> 50 years ago).  Like I said above,
>when it comes to culture, the origin of anything is everything.
>
>I guess we have a legacy of flaming each other, so I guess you needed
>to get in your last dig.

I wouldn't call it a dig, whatever.  Yeah we have had at it many a time,
but this is FAR from being a flame.   More like opinion sharing.  In any
case I agree with the sentecnce before last "...origin of anything is
everything".  Nice chaos theory my friend.

>
>Flames aside, I'd love to hear more on your thoughts about the origins
>of rapping. Some ravers may think it's not topical, but I do. 
>
>> As for "toasting" I would say that
>> than a form of signifying, bka the dozens.
>
>Could you elaborate on "signifying" and "dozens"?

Signifying/Dozens:

I am sure you've heard African-American folx do the "Yo mama's so...", and
the braggartly "Man, my dick is so...", "I got so much...". Well these are
forms of signifying, or the dozens.  The "yo mama" is a dozen.  The object
is to be quick consise and lethal (not getting too personal of course) with
a comeback, until the other person cannot come back with something as
brutal.  The idea is to get nasty, but not too nasty (for instance you
could talk about your mama's weight, but if she had a heart attack you
would never even approach that subject.  Whoever does that loses, and
usually gets into a fight!).  Personal digs are OK, as long as it is
something that the person can help.  Therfore any disability is considered
poor taste, all else is WIDE OPEN. Signifying is more braggart oriented. 
Usually  there is talk of posessions, physical prowess, sexual
prowess/conquest. 

From the outside it seems BS talkin to talk.  But think of what it
requires.  It requires mastery of the language, quick thinking, and the
ability to twist words around quickly.  Also humor is a big part of it. 
You have to make people laugh!

These oral traditions are still quite alive in Africa, and plenty of
African people's play them with expertise.

The "toaster" is a prime example.  Twisting around words, telling a story,
signifying (bragging), sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes in patua. 
In any case it requires quick thinking.  I was talking to DJ Josh who
recently came back from Jamaica.  He met this dude who had his own "sound
system" (he took a picture, and beleive me it was MASSIVE !).  He would
turn it on and "toast" for hours.  Doing all types of sound manipulation,
while DJ'ing and carrying on.  Bragging about his system, his life, telling
a story.  Just carrying on something that has been going on for many
millenia.

So when I hear "toasting", or "dancehall", or "hardcore" rap, I hear the
same thing, just presented differently.

On another tip (getting farther out there):
Gangsta rap.
Now, I do love gangsta rap, but not just any.  I love Ice-Cube (can't stand
Ice-Tea), and the Ghetto Boys.  Use to love 2-live-Crew (from my Hometown
no less).  The thing that they all have in common is that they are funny as
shit.  When you get past all the "I wanna kill this...", and "Fuck the
police...", and hear how it's presented it makes me laugh.  It is nothing
more than Richard Pryor put to a beat.  Which once again, is nothing more
than signifying/dozens told in a story form.  Many people say that the
stuff is violent.  But the fact is from all the folx I have talked to they
laugh as well, and get many of the jokes.  The ideas they put forth are
just that, but they put it in a, uh "black" way (as in "black comedy"). 
But all the braggadacio, and sexual mishaps, and juvenility is nothing more
than the dozens/signifying...which begat bootyliciuous, which begat yo
mama, which begat....;)

Rap/Dancehall/Toasting are all the same thing. All have oral traditions in
Africa, and all are put to a beat.  The transformation of American rap (esp
Gangsta) is even more interesting.  Now dig this.  Here you have a form of
rap, rather angry (still funny tho') that rails against "the man".  And yet
rap's origins are tied to Kraftwerk, YMO, Yello, etc.  Like you said,
rappers would rap over mixes of Kraftwerk and work out  little digs with JB
slammed in for good measure.  I do wonder, many times, if the hardcore
rappers understand "their" origins.  I mean, I know that they know their
beats come from Kraftwerk and shit, but do they know Kraftwerk are a bunch
of Germans from Dusseldorf?  That YMO are Japanese, that Yello are Belgian?

One other thing.  Rap of late (sans Duice who did the Dazey Duks deal),
epsecially gangsta, have really tried to get away from euro-beats.  They
are relying heavily on their masters (Miles, Trane, Duke E., Cab) for
beats/licks.  More and more rap has been infused with Jazz, and old R&B
standards.  70's soul/funk (Digable Planets/Pharcyde/Ice-Cube/Das Efx) are
all the rage, and rap continues to THRIVE (hell rap is the only music
making money, so much so many record companies prop up their rock artists
with the mega that's made from rap), grow, and transform...which brings me
to another thing....changing (this is my last deal so...).  Have you
noticed how the rap terms and the sayings keep changing, like weekly.  Use
to be "homie" and "yo" now it's something else?  Well this is another
version of trickery.  In the "community" these terms change with such
regularity, that by the time the mass culture has gotten ahold of it, it is
out of date.  Change is necessary for survival....

What are YOUR thoughts on Rap/House/rave (hell I already know about your
ranting ;) evoltuion?  For instance, do you think rap plays a really strong
role in the creation of house/rave, or is the funk that it's based upon the
prime motivator?
If funk is the shit with house/rave, why aren't more people of color "into"
it? Is there "really" funky house or is it just imitation/acquistion? 
Tribal...now to me there really is no such thing, to me all this "tribal"
stuff is "trance" with timbales..your thoughts?

>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


There is more, but my Thesis on The Funk is late and the Mothership waits
for nobody!

Peace out,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep  9 20:48:52 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 20:48:54 -0700
In-Reply-To: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
       "PIHKAL/2C-B" (Sep  9,  4:58pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Sep 9,  4:58pm, you proclaimed:
} 	People seem to want PIHKAL's stuff on 2C-B typed up. When I
} made the offer I forgot that I'm really busy right now. I can get it
} done, but it will take a while. Maybe someone with OCR access can do it.

It's on the FTP site.  /pub/raves/chemistry/2cb.gz.  Enjoy :)

	Brian

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yes, it was definitely one of the best wknd in a long while...

Basics was quite wonderful...i was full of apprehension after 
everything id heard about the previous one, but i had a really good time,
especially when towards early morning i went wild dancing to a song that
i love but havent heard since let freedom rave back in early july...

anyway, i won't reiterate how incredible fluid groove was, since everyone 
has already said everything that could be said....except that it was for
me probably the best time ive had since my first fmr, & that the small number 
of people there was a very nice change from having throngs of people crowd
you from all sides while you try to weasel into a clear spot...
that bay view will stick in my mind for a very long time,
especially those grey early morning hrs w/ the perfect music in the background
i agree w/ tamara- definitely one of the best parties ever.

it's memories like the ones of last wknd that make me feel happy and alive
whenever everything else is falling apart & academics have you by the throat...


<sigh>







-jo



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 00:32:56 1993
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From: rpcaras@srv.PacBell.COM (Bob Carasik)
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Burning Man Festival, September 3 - 6.

"People are the best part of nature"
		- Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy

"No Spectators" read the 30 - foot banner hanging across the central
part of the campsite.  7 hours out from San Francisco, we ( me & my
wife and our almost-kindergarten daughter ) had reached the site of
the Burning Man festival, out in the featureless middle of the endless
mudflat that is Nevada's Black Rock Desert.  It was late Friday
afternoon.  Scattered loosely around the 100-yard central "square"
were everything from pup tents to RV's to a fancy old bus with a
satellite dish on top.  The only pattern to the situation was provided
by the neat clumps of portapotties a couple hundred yards to the
north, west, and south.  This was a true TAZ, with very little
infrastructure besides the installations, costumes, vehicles,
fireworks, and, of course, *water*, brought by the participants.
The attitude towards nature was less reverential than one might have
felt in a smaller group; not too messy, certainly not much waste going
on, but we were the humans, and we were thre to play with our toys and
each other.  The setting was a tad harsh to lead one to think too much
of harmony with the All.  To be honest, the heat and emptiness created
more of a dialogue or call-and-response with "nature" than a soothing
featureless harmonic hum.

The Black Rock Gazette, the onsite newletter, proclaimed: "There are
no spectators here, only particpants.  No audience, only palyers.
Here on this sere and desolate plain, our community springs form the
desert floor like a strange and beautiful mushroom, a postmodern
Brigadoon in an ancient wasteland.  Its name is whatever you name it.
Its welath is whatever you bring. Next week it will be gone, but next
week might as well be never.  You are here now."  And all 900 of us
lived up to it, mas o menos, and made the festival a place where off-duty
religion and untamed theatre could meet out back for a smoke and maybe a
round or two of Graham Cracker.

We were there to burn the genderless Man, a 40-foot high wood frame
construction festooned with neon tubing and fireworks.  Why?  " If we
didn't destroy him, we wouldn't have to make him again." said Larry
Harvey, alleged instigator of this custom which started on Baker Beach
some years ago and has been a desert festival for 3 or 4 years now.
What followed was a wonderfully wrought combination of chaos,
planning, and spontaneity. The festival included a number of fun
rituals, for example, the Sunday predawn Java Cow Ceremony, where a
cow-thing miraculously yielded coffee: "we'll take it black!",
responded the parishoners.  Saturday night, 24 hours before burning
the man, there was a lesser burning, of a mud-covered spiral sculpture
a short ways away.  I got to be a torch-bearer, swinging fire around,
missing people's heads.  Several ceremonies were held at the Dog Head,
the 20-foot plastic doggy that once adorned the Doggy Diner, including
sets by Mudwimmin and Three-Day Stubble.  Some folks from the
Cacophony Society ( 415-663-0351 ) held a Christmas party, complete
with eggnog and misteltoe, 95 Farenheit, humidity zero.  Some stuff
that had been advertised before the festival never materialized, such
as a Friday night potluck, a baking workshop, and a quilting
something-or-other.  But then, the "cafe", which was nothing more than
a shade tent in the middle of the camp, took on a bit more form on
Saturday, as a esspresso truck form Davis showed up for business, and
another guy set up a taco and beer stand.  I did my volunteer bit by
personing the information table, which meant I tried to start rumors (
"a motorcycle club from Houston is coming up here to practice Sumerian
rituals and eat acid-laced beef" ) and spread any that came my way, as
well as pointing various arriving techies towards the two busses which
seemed to contain audio and visual and pyro equipment of various
sorts.  My table-mate was glad to be in a gathering of folks from both
ends of Cali where we could be free of SF vs LA rivalry.  "It's great
here, people can be so equal" she exulted.  "It doesn't matter what
kind of car you drive".

Of course, being out in the wilds was big fun in itself.  We went to a
hot spring about 8 miles away, navigating there basically by pointing
the car between two mountains and flooring it.  It was a big
plastic-lined trench near a railroad, very warm at one end, too hot at
the other.  We smeared mud on ourselves, swam, and almost convinced
some other mud bathers to "stay away from that part over there, we
stepped on a ribcage."  Afternoons were spent in whatever shade could
be found, drinking water, eating melons, and drinking more water, but
the heat actually wasn't uncomfortable.  Dust was a bit of a problem,
but it didn't cause any distress really, no sore throats or sneezing.
The windstorms on Friday evening and Saturday afternoon were pretty
obnoxious, with tents getting blown over and stuff.  My daughter
didn't like the windstorms at all, but she came up with great ideas
for holding down the tents with various large objects :)

There was a wide range among the participants, both in degree of
involvement and degree of camping experience.  Aside from the freakout
that mmetz reported, and one real sloppy daytime drunk, it seemed like
people helped each other out, traded food, etc, pretty well, and there
was certainly much less random rowdiness and stoopidity than at yer
basic state park.  We hooke up with some friends that we'd cajoled
into coming and saw several more people that we hadn't seen in a
while.  As the weekend went on, the organization of the event became a
bit more apparent. The "Black Rock Rangers" really did kind of roam
the nearby desert and guide lost people home.  And the pyrotechnical
stuff was kind of professional.  The large "events" seemed planned;
but it seemed possible for anyone to pull any kind of stunt they
desired, and to recruit whomever wanted to join.  Such things, of
course, start more easily when there's some pre-existing clumps of
people to snowball around.

For my money, these tongue-in-cheek ritual tacked together from a
rummage sale of old jokes and genuine archetypal stuff like fire,
dancing, bathing, and drumming, made for a lot more spirituality than
any museum-like reconstruction of Native American, Celtic, Sumerian,
or whatever cultural borrowing happens to be chic among alienated
urbanites.  ( Nothing against Native Americans, Celts, or Sumerians,
I'm just not one of 'em ).  Unabashed clowning made for a genuine
carnival, a true holy-day for what the Subgenii called "inherently
bogus religion".  The Burning Man Festival spoke to me as being truly
of my postmodern, eclectic, culture, a veritable Rio Grande of
whatever meaning one's heart desired.  It was serious fun, "serious"
in the sense of demanding some effort and commitment in even getting
there, and better yet in having a shtick; "fun", well, if wearing odd
costumes and dancing and shrieking around a huge bonfire with
firecrackers going off isn't your idea of fun, well, you jes' don' eat
chicken on Sunday.  Religion Lite, perhaps, but I'd call it a true
affirmation of humanity, given the comparative absence of other
species and the age old significance of fire as monkeyfella's first
serious attempt to lift naturebuddy by the scruff of the neck and
shake till there's a snap.

Made me feel real anyway.


The actual burning was everything one might hope for.  First a formal
cocktail party in the central area, with tuxedoes, drag, mud, naked
bodies, and LL Bean all glittering in the blood-red sunset.  Then a
few dozen volunteers raised the man to standing position by hauling on
a rope.  Then the whole festival formed a procession, torches, drums,
and all, out to the man, an eight of a mile away.  Heat lighting
played in the mountains.  The expectant crowd grew ever more expectant
;+).  The lowering sky darkened.  The lightening grew more frequent,
until we were surrounded, at least 300 degrees.  Once night had truly
fallen, the neon was turned on, and the man stood in its glory,
glowing blue against the mountans, now barely visible.  A few minutes
later, and its arms were raised up.  Then the torches were applied,
and the man went up in flames.  The neon failed on one limb, then
another, and fireworks went off throughout the man.  A little while
more and he crashed to the ground.  The crowd moved in a little, as
people formed a dancing circle around the burning wooden carcass.
Young men leaped over some glowing ribs.  "Why they doin' that?" asked
my daughter.  "Because they can", I replied.  Lightning probed the
rising smoke, and the very air started to move.

After fifteen more minutes of hanging around this festive scene, my
daughter had had enough.  It was Time To Go To The Bathroom, on the
other side of the festival.  As we walked, we felt the first drops of
rain.  Then the rain quit and the squalling Baby of All Windstorms
roared into being. Resisting a contrarian urge to pee into it, we
found shelter in the portapotty, and started back to the tent.  The
wind got windier, the dust, dustier.  We had to stop, couldn't see,
and soon enough got back by dead reckoning.  It was pouring rain as we
entered the tent.  But the rain got no rainier, and after an hour or
so it stopped.  Serious rain might have made the mud impassable, but
all that really happened was some tents and other stuff blew away, and
some peopl had to take shelter with strangers or their cars, for a
little while.   I remained in the tent for the night, since I didn't
want to leave while there was any chance of the storm cropping up, and
besides, it would have been hard to top what had happened, anyway.

Nature sure chimed in, as if to say very gently, in response to all
our incohate energy, "mess with me, and I can mess with you too, buddy".

On the way home the next day, we stopped at Pyramid Lake to rinse off
the dust and sulfur in the nice cool agricultural runoff.  Then lunch
at The Nugget casino in Sparks, just for cultural balance.  But as
drove down the Western Slope towards home, we saw a real life piece of
a rainbow floating in the thin overcast clouds.  "God gave Noah the
rainbow sign / No more water, the fire next time".


ObRave:
	There were rave events both Saturday and Sunday nights.  I'm
told that the Sunday night one was a lot of fun ( 75 people, 50
dancing ) but I didn't attend either one, as it turned out.  I had
heard that there was something about sfraves on the bulletin board,
but it had blown away by the time I looked for it.  I saw Liz across
the way, and that was it for familiar sfr faces for me.

- AstroBoy

P. S.  Send me a SASE, I can send xeroxes of some of the materials
that were passed out there.

P. P. S. I have no official connection with the Cacophony Society.
But then again, neither do they!!

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 03:23:23 1993
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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Message-Id: <9309101023.AA04081@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 3:23:37 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I sorta don't like to have the DJ in the middle of the crowd...

But maybe that's because I am remembering back to the Charter Oak portion of
Connection II, when I was roller skating on the dance floor and came within
one inch of knocking Scott Hardkiss and the turntables over...so a DJ in the
middle would be FAR too detrimental to roller skating ravers...:)


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
                                Tamara Palmer
                              trance@netcom.com
                           You are in...THE LIGHT!
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 03:53:09 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 03:36:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Seth Joshua Horvitz <acid23@uclink.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
To: Michael Wertheim <mw@sybase.com>
Cc: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309091850.AA21830@orion.sybgate.sybase.com>
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On Thu, 9 Sep 1993, Michael Wertheim wrote:

> At Basics the DJs were in a DJ booth that was in the middle of the dance floor.
> The booth was elevated about three feet above the ground, so the crowd could
> easily see the DJ, and the DJ could easily see the crowd, but there was still
> a physical separation between them.

Actually, I noticed several people managing to lean over the table to check
a record or just to stare at the DJ.  At one point, a guy even grabbed a
record from Spun's hand as he was trying to replace it in his crate.  Of
course, he just wanted to check the title, but I'd say that's about as
rude as it gets.  As for the sound setup, it was impressive to look at,
but the extremely high volume and power at four corners in combination
with an extremely reverberatory, high ceilinged space makes for extremely
muddy sound IMHO (Wow, I finally got to use one of those annoying net
abbreviations :).  I would gladly sacrifice two speaker stacks and a
teensy bit of volume for the ability to differentiate more than just
beats and bass from the music. 

////////{{{{{{{[[[[[[[<<<<<<<<<acid232dica>>>>>>>>]]]]]]]}}}}}}}}}\\\\\\\\\\  

PS: Jon, if you're listening, would you still be interested in dropping by
one of these fridays to spin on my radio show?  Send me email :)

-Seth
acid23@uclink.berkeley.edu


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 07:25:29 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: DJ face down in the....
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hmmm some interesting comments from everyone about placing the DJ in the
middle of the dance floor.  I think it's a great gimmick, and have joked
with many a DJ about putting them in the middle, preferably on some sort of
roataing platform.  You know like a rotisserie for DJ's ;)  All kidding
aside, I like the idea BUT:

- Someone brought up the deal about ear damage, and although I have never
thought of it,  the importance is quite real.  Having a DJ in the middle,
AND having them listen to CRANKED UP monitors is baaaad news.

- Too many cracker-jacks!  I HATE it when people shine flashlights on DJ's
records, or WORSE try to talk to the DJ about what he/she is spinning while
thier doing the do.  I hate it when people STAND (not dancing mind you) in
front of the DJ to attempt to read the label, or try to get the DJ's
attention.

- Stolen property is another thing.  People steal stuff.  When placed in
the middle of the floor it is much harder to control access to the booth.

Although I think it is a great idea (in some instances), I would probably
not do it.  Getting to the booth would be a problem for the DJ.  The DJ
should NOT be the center of attention at a party (this is not a rock show),
and I think it is just difficult to work under such conditions.

In LA, where I first got involved in the house/rave scene, they used to use
this place called the Casa.  They would have the dj wayy up high.  You
wouldn't even know where the DJ was.  You were surrounded by sound, smoke,
great prodution, and a vibe.  And that is what a party is all about IMO.  

The DJ is indespensible in creating that feel, but if they are hampered by
folx bothering them, or can't hear afterwards, or someone steals their
stuff, that vibe will be ruined.

I like the DJ to be off the dancefloor, kind of anonymous, in an area that
has restricted flow.  To me it's better for the DJ, better for me (since I
won't have to hear about cracker-jacks and thieves), and better for the
crowd (more room to dance).

4 Corner sound is a MUST.  I am  not talking about quad, just 4 corner. 
And when I say 4 corner I mean right & left channels are diagonal:

R        L
 



L        R


In this way you maintain the integrity of the stereo signal no matter where
you are.  The other neat effect; when you stand in the middle the sound has
the illusion of rotating (this is especially noticiable with records that
have heavy transforming going on).  When the level are right the BASS has
good penetration, and the highs (when placed above the head) sound great,
without piercing!
The probelm with usign this config in large venues is the delay, but at the
last "get down,ugly,stoopid" the main hall had somehow cut the delay to a
min.  The standing waves were not much of an issue either.  Outdoors I
don't think it works too well. It requires more power, and the sound almost
always sounds washed out.  A wall is best , IMO, for outdoors.

Still, that (4 corner) and a dj in the middle....nice one!

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 07:35:56 1993
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   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>>> RCPT To:<sfraves@sfraves@stanford.edu>
<<< 550 <sfraves@sfraves@stanford.edu>... User unknown: No such file or directory
550 sfraves@sfraves@stanford.edu... User unknown

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From: larryc (Larry Ching)
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Subject: Visible at VISION
To: sfraves@sfraves@stanford.edu
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I think that it's about time for me to kick out the jambs* this weekend -
so , to VISION I will go! I'll be wearing my yellow checkered Goofy
T-shirt - just come up and say hello to me. ( I can't promise to remember
your name , as it's one of the flaws in my mental processing , but I may
catch your facial features for future reference ).


				Larry Ching/larryc@netcom.com

( * not a misspelling - I suspect that the original phrase was
  "kick out the jambs" , but got mutated to "kick out the jams" -
  maybe this is a question for alt.folklore.urban ).

-- 


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 08:40:24 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 08:29:28
From: Franklin Shotwell <shotwell@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: SpaceTime Continuum live on the radio
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Hey foax,
	Jonah of SpaceTime Continuum will be dropping by my radio show,
Sat. night/Sun. morning 1-3:30 AM on KALX 90.7 FM.  Should be a pretty thick
session, so tune it in on your way to or from Vision, or at home with a cup of 
strong tea.  Meanwhile, I'd love to have SFR djs doing guest spots, so get
ahold of me if you're interested.


	(minor		shotwell@ocf.berkeley.edu
	 minor)		510-540-5179


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 09:01:58 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
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To: andys@ingres.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 to anyone with typing injuries, call me, there is too much to say to
 do it here.


(415) 771-7017 (h)
(415) 940-2263 (w)
(415) 719-5750 (page)



-=Jack=-

  "now you're lookin' back...
   all dogs must chase the cat"


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 09:46:42 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 12:46:36 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309101646.AA20042@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Blood enemies wage peace
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


So I pick up the newspaper this morning and Israel and the PLO have
taken the first real steps towards peace :). We still have far to go,
but the world is healing, and it feels good to hear about it :).

Just some nice thoughts for your Friday... :)


Sean

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 09:50:46 1993
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From: janti@george.arc.nasa.gov (Joel Antipuesto)
Message-Id: <9309101650.AA17742@george.arc.nasa.gov>
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Amorphous Androgynous
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Could someone e-mail me the track listing to the Amorphous Androgynous
CD.  I'm at work and need it.  I'm not on mailing list.  Thanks!

-Joel
janti@george.arc.nasa.gov

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 09:52:34 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 09:40:33
From: Franklin Shotwell <shotwell@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: Your identification please
To: Mark Guthrie <winston@lurnix.com>
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309081819.AA22196@cassy.lurnix.com>
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> Does anyone know the tittle of the song that has a basic drum beat under
> trippy wah-wah psychedelic funk?  It's on Spun's "Hemp Can Save the Planet"
> tape.

That's 'Beats and Pieces' by Coldcut (same kids who put out DJ Food).  I re-
member that one showing up on 45 on Dj Dan's Wicked Burning Frenzy.  Anyhow,
I think the song is on their 'What's that Noise' album, but it's not the same
version.  The single is hard to find.  Unfortunately, the Vivaldi scratch is
canned, part of the song.

I'd love to see a track listing for that tape, though, or compile one, if
anybody else is familiar with it.  I caught Renegade Soundwave, Underground
Resistance, Orb, and Aardvark, but the rest is a mystery to me.  Perpetual
play on my walkman, though.

	(minor		shotwell@ocf.berkeley.edu
	 minor)		510-540-5179





From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 10:16:12 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9309101716.AA18597@netcom5.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 10:16:29 PDT
Reply-To: brycer@netcom.com
In-Reply-To: <9309092145.AA07669@slamdance.us.oracle.com>; from "Derek Chung" at Sep 9, 93 2:45 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

An addendum to the SFRaves Calendar:

The Fluid Groove posse presents:

  the sound surrounds you like
        LIQUID AIR
         09.18.93
   DJs: Tamara, Jon D., Cris, 
       Ethan & Guests
        415-487-8497
    Audio by Sound Vision

Hope to see you there!
-- 
Bryce Ryan -- Specializing in AMBIANCE -- brycer@netcom.com
"The revolution will not be televised, 
 but the proceedings will be available online."  Art McGee

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 11:06:58 1993
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From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309101806.AA22531@pilot.njin.net>
To: brycer@netcom.com
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
In-Reply-To: <9309101716.AA18597@netcom5.netcom.com>
References: <9309092145.AA07669@slamdance.us.oracle.com>
	<9309101716.AA18597@netcom5.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Bryce Ryan writes:
 > An addendum to the SFRaves Calendar:
 > 
 > The Fluid Groove posse presents:
 > 
 >   the sound surrounds you like
 >         LIQUID AIR

Oooooo neat :). I really love that name :).

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 11:18:41 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 10:55:15 PDT
From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309101755.AA12071@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: GGPark Update 
Cc: sfraves-planners@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Thanks to cash received this weekend, and a check I just got yesterday,
We've reached the break even point for Connection Earth in GG Park.

Expenses:
300 - park permit
 35 - SFPD sound permit
 35 - U-haul rental for the sound system
  5 - gas for the generator
---
380

Funds received: $385

There will be some other assorted minor expenses to cover limited flyering,
garbage bags, fruit/snacks that won't amount to much.  

Thanks to everyone who supported this effort.  Because of the great response 
and the numbers of people who said that they were gonna give $ but didn't get 
around to it yet, I'll definately plan to do another one.  But I'm not gonna 
accept any more donations until planning for the next one begins.

A couple of other notes: After hearing Ethan's sound system at Fluid Groove,
Brian B.  & I have decided that a 2nd system will not be necessary.  But we 
need volunteers to help load & unload the system.  Anyone who thinks they can 
be available at 11:00am Sunday should let me know.  

Although my permit only allows amplified sound from 1 - 5pm, I'm gonna try 
to start the music earlier, at a lower volume, depending on who's watching.  

We have Marx Meadows all day, so there's nothing preventing people from 
coming earlier to hang out.  Maybe Bob R. will even bring his rave-in-a-box 
for a morning preparty?

Anyway, Oct. 3rd is a long way off so I probably should shut up for a while.
Let's just hope the wearther holds out.  Thanks again to everyone for
all the support and encouragement.  It's become obvious that the SFRaves
community here has become a powerful grassroots movement in the rave
scene.  With our networking, resources and commitment, our contributions
to the SF House Movement, both spiritually and practically, can be a big 
factor of what will keep raving here viable and special.  Remember, there
are no rules, just ideas that we choose to act upon.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com
____________________________________________________________________________

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 11:42:36 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309101532.AA02253@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: jsl@netcom.com, mayer@netcom4.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



What are YOUR thoughts on Rap/House/rave (hell I already know about your
ranting ;) evoltuion?  For instance, do you think rap plays a really strong
role in the creation of house/rave, or is the funk that it's based upon the
prime motivator?
---------

from my neophyte perspective, it seems like both.  you've heard that
house/rave song that bites Rakim's "dance wit the speaker till ya hear
it blow", right?  and there's superbad's bassline on Garth's CD, whether
from JB or from a house/rave record, it's still the JB's...actually I
hear some PE right in ther near the superbad bass riff (from the nation
of millions era, I think...)

*

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 11:44:39 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 10:14:08 -0800
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie Lawrence)
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Subject: Re: monicat has moved
Content-Length: 79
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sorry about that going to the list too- Damn that reply to all button.

jamie


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 11:51:16 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309101829.AA24788@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: andys@ingres.com, uunet!netcom.com!howard@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: NON-RAVE: seeking Sun trackball...
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I don't know about it's use with a sun but one of the smartest things I ever
did is let my friends dad, who was advising me on a PC purchase, talk me into
a keyboard with a built in track ball.  This was before I had ever seen a
track ball (except for tempest, the vid game) and before they were as popular
as they are now.  I don't know why they haven't made mice obsolete yet.  Takes
less space, it's easier to move your hands between it and keys, and you don't
have to b
OOps.
you don't have to pick it up and move it to the other side of the mat when
you run out of space.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 11:52:59 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 10:14:05 -0800
To: Monica Tauriello <monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie Lawrence)
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At  7:22 PM 9/9/93 -0400, Monica Tauriello wrote:
>i have moved into a new apartment and i posted the wrong number it is 641
>4703...also i have unsubed from sfraves...but i can be found at ysh every
>thursday...big hugs...monicat

Howdy- where are you now?  Is this mail getting through? Haven't heard from
you, and my mail connection has been really flakey lately.  Anyway, what is
your weekend like?

jamie


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 12:16:22 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 12:04:13 -0700
From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309101904.AA15806@koko.csustan.edu>
To: lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  GGPark Update
Cc: sfraves-planners@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I was just thinking wouldn't this be a great opportunity for us to let those
others know or maybe educate the curious crowd that might happen to join us and
not know whats going on about what this whole thing is about? 

Maybe then they public will be more knowladgable and less prejudice toward
such GGpark events, SFRAves, sfravers, etc.etc.

Just a thought!!!

Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 12:31:02 1993
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From: Jeffrey Moore <jmoore@well.sf.ca.us>
To: jsl@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  DJ face down in the....
Message-Id: <93Sep10.122941pdt.14172-4@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Fri, 10 Sep 1993 12:29:32 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

jsl@netcom.com sez:
4 Corner sound is a MUST.  I am  not talking about quad, just 4 corner.
And when I say 4 corner I mean right & left channels are diagonal:
 
R        L
 
 
L        R

This is a big pa no no with a stereo mix.  Your going to severely destroy
the sound (ie hi frequency response will be hurt from the phase problems
that are inherent in this kind of setup).  At the very least have the setup
like:
L    R

L    R

You will reduce the amout of phase problems and the system will be a lot
easier to deal with and produce good sound.

I recommend getting a hold of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.  It
has a lot to say about setting up PAs and producing the best possible sound
from the equipment you have.  It was the main text in most of the
engineering classes I took that dealt with PAs and mic placement.

I also recommend getting a surround sound processor (preferebly Dolby) for
doing this kind of setup.  It'll handle a lot of the phase problems and
allow you to make your setup sound more like a quad (or more) setup.

-Jeff


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 12:45:52 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 15:36:46 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309101936.AA03613@pilot.njin.net>
To: lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com (Lee Fogel)
Cc: sfraves-planners@techno.Stanford.EDU, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: GGPark Update 
In-Reply-To: <9309101755.AA12071@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
References: <9309101755.AA12071@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 > Anyway, Oct. 3rd is a long way off so I probably should shut up for a while.
 > Let's just hope the wearther holds out.  Thanks again to everyone for
 > all the support and encouragement.  It's become obvious that the SFRaves
 > community here has become a powerful grassroots movement in the rave
 > scene.  With our networking, resources and commitment, our contributions
 > to the SF House Movement, both spiritually and practically, can be a big 
 > factor of what will keep raving here viable and special.  Remember, there
 > are no rules, just ideas that we choose to act upon.

Thanks for putting all the work into getting it together. It's going
to be a lot of fun :).

Isn't it amazing what computer networking has done, and into what
areas it reaches? Wow.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 13:14:44 1993
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From: kawakami@noc.usfca.edu (Sea Of Sin)
Message-Id: <9309102016.AA00577@noc.usfca.edu>
Subject: Re: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
To: brycer@netcom.com
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 13:16:22 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Discoravers)
In-Reply-To: <9309101716.AA18597@netcom5.netcom.com> from "Bryce Ryan" at Sep 10, 93 10:16:29 am
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Previously, Bryce Ryan said:
> 
> An addendum to the SFRaves Calendar:
> 
> The Fluid Groove posse presents:
> 
>   the sound surrounds you like
>         LIQUID AIR  <-------- heh I am still looking for the 12":(

feeling :I, but better (cuz I am sick),

Cindy


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sea>of<sin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
   D  E  M  A  N  D    T  H  E    F  L  O  W    O  F    R  H  Y  T  H  M
>>>>kawakami@noc.usfca.edu>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<kawakami@alm.admin.usfca.edu<<<
>>>>seaofsin@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>>>><<<<<<<<<cin@coreys.berkeley.edu<<<<<<<<


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 14:53:58 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 17:53:52 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309102153.AA08631@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: For crypto-enthusiasts
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

We all knew 56 bits wasn't much of a key space. This sort of makes it
official. Note: this doesn't affect PGP users. They use IDEA, a
somewhat DES like cypher with 128 bit keys.

Sean


|Path: dziuxsolim.rutgers.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!toad.com!gnu
|From: gnu@toad.com (John Gilmore)
|Newsgroups: sci.crypt
|Subject: Crack DES in 3.5 hours for only $1,500,000!
|Message-ID: <38294@toad.com>
|Date: 9 Sep 93 23:16:49 GMT
|Organization: Cygnus Support, Palo Alto
|Lines: 68

Be the first on your block!

Michael Wiener <weiner@bnr.ca> produced a complete design for a DES
key search machine, which he presented in the "rump session" at Crypto '93
last month.  He designed a single custom chip which can do 50 million
test encryptions per second, and the boards and racks and frames into
which it fits.  The full design has about 60,000 copies of the chip,
solves DES in 3.5 hours, and is fully described in the paper.  Here is
an excerpt from his conclusions:	

    It is possible to build a $1 million machine that can attack DES and
    recover a key in an average time of 3.5 hours.  The machine uses a
    known plaintext to exhaustively search through the DES key space and
    could be developed for $500000 in about 10 months.  Because a great
    deal of detail has gone into the design of the key search machine, we
    can have high confidence in the assessment of its cost and speed.
    The key search design presented here is one to two orders of magnitude
    faster than other recently proposed designs.

    Even cryptosystems with 64-bit keys may be vulnerable.  If DES were
    modified to use 64-bit keys, there would be 2**8 times as many keys to
    search through, and a $10 million machine would take an average of 3.7
    days to find a key.

    It is possible to build a key search machine that can support a range
    of modes of DES with little penalty in run-time.  A $1 million machine
    would take 8 hours on average to find a key used in 1-bit CFB mode
    and 4 hours on average for any of ECB, CBC, 64-bit OFB, 64-bit CFB, or
    8-bit CFB mode.

    This work shows that exhaustive DES key search is alarmingly
    economical.  If it ever was true that attacking DES was only within
    the reach of large governments, it is clearly no longer true.  A
    fairly painless way to improve security dramatically is to switch to
    triple-DES.

The paper was written as a warning to DES users (bankers) and their
customers (depositors).  DES is used to protect electronic money
transfers among banks all over the world.  Several billion dollars per
day are moved in this way.  Within a day of finishing the machine, a
criminal could easily pay back the $1.5M in capital.  In the second
day, they'd have the capital required to build a second machine, and
in the third day a positive cash flow would begin.  Banks can do 
nothing to stop this -- if they shut down their comm links, they go
out of business; if they keep moving money over them, intruders suck
money out at will.  I recommend not keeping your money in banks...

Most organizations who would build such a machine (national
governments and other forms of organized crime) have probably already
constructed many similar machines.  This paper will not help them.  It
is intended to help people who thought that DES was secure.

The full paper is available in PostScript via ftp from:

	ftp.eff.org:/pub/crypto/des_key_search.ps
	cpsr.org:/cpsr/crypto/des/des_key_search.ps

cpsr.org also makes it available via their Gopher service.

CPSR.org is on a slow link; use the ftp.eff.org archive if possible.
(The file will appear there shortly; apologies for any delay.)

	John Gilmore
	Electronic Frontier Foundation
-- 
John Gilmore                gnu@toad.com  --  gnu@cygnus.com  --  gnu@eff.org
 "Looks like they took a hand grenade to a decent operating system" --
						      Bob Kresge on Solaris 2

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 15:37:18 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309102113.AA25052@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Correction
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Did I mention that the video has to be 5 minutes or less?

Larua, could you make sure the NE posse gets this correction if 
you forward(ed) the former message?

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 16:13:47 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309102109.AA25046@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Vids wntd for TV
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

My friend Lisa is talent scout for this company that plays any type of video
that the public sends (except obscene or inappropriate material, which probably
has to be very obscene or imappropriate to not get play if I know Lisa) and
they used to be on Cable, Viacom Ch 51 - I seem to remember someone on SFraves
being affiliated with this spot now but I digress.  They are now on Ch 32 in
Boston (NBC affiliate - oooo, aaaah) from 9-10 p.m. and there is an audiance
of 7.5 million people.  They need videos of music, animation, whatever.  Good
chance for us to wedge a little propaganda, if you ask me.  We should send
any rave and counter-culture type videos from our collective libraries.  There
is a simple release form (you don't waive any rights as owner or anything) so
the video creator (hopefuly you) has to give consent, i.e., don't send an Orb
video because you think it's neat.  To reach Lisa:

Call (415) 587-2296
Fax  (415) 587-2297
Compuserve  Not sure about this one.  She just got it and she and I are
            both unfamiliar with there address format.  Her full name is
            Lisa Rein and her # is 73361,1252 so if you can form an address
            out of that then great.

Laura, can you forward this to NEraves?  Seems more apprpriate geographicly
and I don't have the address.  Thanks.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 17:05:53 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309102250.AA05828@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: New Clinton Record
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



Hey,

Just as an FYI, George Clinton's new album has a release date, check it out!

  -=Jack=-

  "now you're lookin' back...
   all dogs must chase the cat"


Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 16:42:21 EDT
Message-Id: <9309102042.AA25455@freenet.buffalo.edu>
From: ames!freenet.buffalo.edu!ac388 (Josh Kuritzky)
To: funky-music@Athena.MIT.EDU
Subject: Hey man, smell my finger
Reply-To: ames!freenet.buffalo.edu!ac388
Status: R



According to the new release list I just got, George Clinton's
new CD comes out on Oct. 12...

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Peace is liberty in tranquility." - Cicero (44-43 B.C.)

	****J.Kuritzky (ac388@freenet.buffalo.edu)****


----- End Included Message -----


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 18:02:40 1993
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From: crocdile@uclink.berkeley.edu (YAYAYA)
Message-Id: <9309101909.AA29473@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: delete me
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU





YAU! too much mail... vape me.

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 18:03:03 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Your Sister's House, free party Sunday & legal defense party Sat.
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 18:05:00 -0700
From: doom@banneker.Stanford.EDU
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Jill and I went over to Azteca Thursday night, expecting the
traditional pre-Your Sisters House dinner, but it turns out
we were on our own.  (Food was good, though kind of heavy
for a dance warm-up, I thought... and I think I like
Chabella's better.)

We went over to Your Sister's House, and we were somewhat
disappointed...  this was held at Cleo's this time,
essentially a bar in the lower Haight, and the space just
wasn't that good.  I gather they had to be paranoid about
noise, because the sound system was a bit quiet, and all the
windows and doors were kept shut.  Add a bunch of candles,
some incense, cigarettes of various types (notable Rose),
and a bunch of dancers, and you've got a situation to
challenge anyone's breathing ability.  I was having a little
trouble with the anaerobic dancing myself, and there was no
chill space to speak of.  It was kind of cold on the side
walk, and they couldn't have people congregating there for
fear of attracting police attention.  The light show was
really cool, though, and the music was decent (if a bit
old).

There phone message talks about a free party there in the
same space on Sunday, so if you happen to be in the
neighborhood, you might want to stop by to check out the day
time scene (I think it's around 2PM, but call their number
to check)... Maybe they won't have to worry about noise then.

One last thing.  Not really ravey, but some folks here may
be interested in this: a legal defense fund party for some
libertarian types how were hassled by the cops on a
marijuana charge...

A PARTY FOR MARK AND PAMELA PICKENS'S LEGAL DEFENSE

Place: Freedom's Forum Books, 1800 Market Street, SF
Date:  Saturday, September 18		Time: 7:00 p.m.
Donation: $10.00 (All proceeds go to help defray legal expenses.)

On July 28th, the San Francisco Police Department smashed in the front door
of Mark and Pamela Pickens, seized their property and trashed their home.
Mark was charged with possession of marijuana; after a night in jail he
was released on $2000 bail.  He has since spent thousands more in legal
fees.  Mark's lawyer, Alex Reisman, is working hard to ensure the lightest
jail sentence possible.

You may know Mark as a former San Francisco Libertarian Party Chair and
four-time Libertarian Party candidate (SF Supervisor/79; Assembly/80-82;
State Senate/84).  What you may not know is that he personally persuaded
over 1800 voters to register with the Libertarian Party in 1979 as part
of the successful effort to get the California LP permanent ballot status. 
(This was over 5% of our total registrants in the entire state!)

Without his generous financial support in 1991, it is doubtful that
Proposition O (the First Amendment Initiative) would have made it to
the ballot.  Prop O passed by an overwhelming 73%.

Mark and Pamela are also two of the co-founders of Residents Against
Prohibition, a coalition of Libertarians and Liberals dedicated to ending
the drug war.  The RAP brochure was created by Pamela on her computer which
was seized by the SFPD.  Fortunately, thousands had already been
distributed.

Please join us on Saturday, September 18th at Freedom's Forum Books to
support Mark and Pamela and their legal fight.
                                                           George L. O'Brien
                                                   San Francisco LP Chairman

P.S.  For those of you unfamiliar with Police search procedure, Mark and
Pamela will be showing a videotape of their apartment taken immediately
after the raid.  This might be instructive for those who think that the
Police mean well and are simply "doing their job."

--
Anton Sherwood						   DASher@netcom.com
+1 415 267 0685		1800 Market St #207, San Francisco, California 94102
(another Friend of Pickens)

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 18:21:22 1993
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From: vampyre@uclink.berkeley.edu
Message-Id: <9309101943.AA05440@uclink.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: back from SF . . . :-)
To: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 12:43:01 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-Reply-To: <9309081622.AA09293@soda.berkeley.edu> from "Laura La Gassa" at Sep 8, 93 09:22:44 am
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On Mon 6 Sep 93 19:05:01, Laura La Gassa (laura@soda.berkeley.edu) wrote:
> voyage. I'd also like to thank everyone who came, especially Jo who danced
> like a REAL Brooklyn Bass-Bin Worshiping girl during the hardcore parts, her
> enthusiasm helped to make me feel like I was doing right by you all.

<chuckle>

thanx laura...8-) im glad  everyone made you feel at least somewhat 
at home in SF
though dancing that hard in sand resulted in a rather tweaked lower back,
but, hey, it was worth it.

<sigh>

maybe im just a ne-raver at heart...

at any rate, perhaps its most un-SFR-like of me, but i found i *really*
loved the hardcore material that laura played, as well as the hard trance,
some of which i actually recognized at Basics...
maybe it's b/c being a one-time metalhead i feel that occasionally
the harder & faster, the better.

Nevertheless, i still love SF-style of music as well....
tho even with all these new musical interests, i still love lots of other 
kinds of music ranging from classical to latino-brazilian dance 
as well as metal...

over the months since ive gotten into raving, i've noticed a lot of argument
over what style of music (house vs. hardcore vs. ambient or what-have-you) is
better...

i don't see anything wrong with liking any/all kinds of music - whatever 
works for you. 
perhaps too much attention is drawn towards what kinds of music are typically
"east coast" or "west coast" & the idea that if it's not in that particular 
musical vein it's just not worth being given a chance.
Fluid Groove was a great success in that sense b/c SF ravers were able to 
get into more east-coast style of music, & everyone had a great time.

of course, not everyone can or has to like every single kind of music,
(i certainly don't - as with most people, there's a lot of things out there
that are not exactly my cup o' tea) but everyone is entitled to their 
individual tastes, & needn't be put down for it...

one of the things i have gathered from "rave cultcha" is that 
being  open-minded is ideally meant to be one of the main underlying themes 
behind the rave mentality.

what i'm saying in my convoluted way is at least keep an open mind & give new
things a chance...

Hell, if i hadn't, i wouldn't be here now, writing/being involved in the rave
scene. To say that i *hated* techno or anything remotely attached to this
musical genre scarcely a year ago [& thought thrash/death
metal was the be-all and end-all of music] is an understatement...but i gave
it a listen again, & i suppose the rest is rave history....8-)

But as laura was saying, a party with the right vibe/attitude/people will
be a good party no matter what music is being played- 


this is just me 2cents on the topic - but after all, to each his own.

-jo
the lambada-dancing raver/mosher/bellydancer.......*grin*

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 19:36:12 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309110236.AA28022@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: To Be Visible @ VISION
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 19:36:30 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 
 I think that it's about time for me to kick out the jambs* this weekend -
 so , to VISION I will go! I'll be wearing my yellow checkered Goofy
 T-shirt - just come up and say hello to me. ( I can't promise to remember
 your name , as it's one of the flaws in my mental processing , but I may
 catch your facial features for future reference ).
 
 
 				Larry Ching/larryc@netcom.com
 
 ( * not a misspelling - I suspect that the original phrase was
   "kick out the jambs" , but got mutated to "kick out the jams" -
   maybe this is a question for alt.folklore.urban ).
 
 

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 21:07:19 1993
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 21:07:31 -0700
Message-Id: <9309110407.AA07557@netcom.netcom.com>
To: Jeffrey Moore <jmoore@well.sf.ca.us>
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re:  DJ face down in the....
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>jsl@netcom.com sez:
>4 Corner sound is a MUST.  I am  not talking about quad, just 4 corner.
>And when I say 4 corner I mean right & left channels are diagonal:
> 
>R        L
> 
> 
>L        R
>
>This is a big pa no no with a stereo mix.  Your going to severely destroy
>the sound (ie hi frequency response will be hurt from the phase problems
>that are inherent in this kind of setup).  At the very least have the setup
>like:
>L    R
>
>L    R
>
>You will reduce the amout of phase problems and the system will be a lot
>easier to deal with and produce good sound.

 Sorry but I have to disagree.  WIth a good engineer and good equipment the
phase prblems are ELIMINATED!  I have used this setup at every party I've
thrown, and have had: No phase problems, bno feedback, great sound, great
efx.  Preston still uses this type of configuration at his gigs (if I'm not
mistaken).

>
>I recommend getting a hold of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.  It
>has a lot to say about setting up PAs and producing the best possible sound
>from the equipment you have.  It was the main text in most of the
>engineering classes I took that dealt with PAs and mic placement.
>
>I also recommend getting a surround sound processor (preferebly Dolby) for
>doing this kind of setup.  It'll handle a lot of the phase problems and
>allow you to make your setup sound more like a quad (or more) setup.
>
>-Jeff


I agree on th euse of a surround sound processor, but it CAN be done quite
well without.  The problem is most sound co's dont have one.  And those
that do genrally don't do raves.  I will look at the text you recommended
though.  SOunds quite useful.

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 10 21:27:45 1993
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From: wicked@netcom.com
Message-Id: <9309110428.AA14170@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: dj in the middle...
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 93 21:28:03 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9309102036.AA05073@nmtvs313.mtvyp>; from "Chris Hart" at Sep 10, 93 1:36 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	All I can say is a quote from our local transportation
system (MUNI):

	INFORMATION GLADLY GIVEN
	BUT SAFETY REQUIRES 
	UNNECESSARY CONVERSATION



	Just about says it really  :)


	Markie !)


 -- 

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 03:44:56 1993
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To: sameer@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Subject: Re: PIHKAL/2C-B
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	there is some /pihkal/ stuff avail in the sfr archive 
	methinks...

caliban


From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 11:56:10 1993
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To: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: and don't forget bootsy, bernie worrell, blacktronic science
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 93 11:56:26 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Bootsy Collins' Rubber Band w/ special guests Bernie Worrell and
Blacktronic Science are playing at Bimbo's in SF on Sunday the 12th.
Two shows @ 7:30 and 10:30 -- $20.00. Hurry up and get yer tix if it's
not already sold out.

This should be a groovy funky dance event.

(Nimble dialing "fingers" paid off again and I won two complimentary
tix to the early show on the radio (KFJC)).... Anybody else going?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 11:56:16 1993
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To: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: and don't forget bootsy, bernie worrell, blacktronic science
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 93 11:56:35 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Bootsy Collins' Rubber Band w/ special guests Bernie Worrell and
Blacktronic Science are playing at Bimbo's in SF on Sunday the 12th.
Two shows @ 7:30 and 10:30 -- $20.00. Hurry up and get yer tix if it's
not already sold out.

This should be a groovy funky dance event.

(Nimble dialing "fingers" paid off again and I won two complimentary
tix to the early show on the radio (KFJC)).... Anybody else going?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 12:15:30 1993
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From: kawakami@noc.usfca.edu (Sea Of Sin)
Message-Id: <9309111917.AA11104@noc.usfca.edu>
Subject: Re: Vids wntd for TV
To: winston@lurnix.com (Mark Guthrie)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1993 12:17:05 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Discoravers)
In-Reply-To: <9309102109.AA25046@cassy.lurnix.com> from "Mark Guthrie" at Sep 10, 93 02:09:44 pm
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Well I am going to start video taping at raves because I have to do class
projects with the video camera. It's for my tv productions class. So for
the first project I need to find a story line. :). I will be filming
thoughout the semester, so I hope any of you don't get mad because you
*might* be filmed. Whatever tape is left over I think I will edit it and
offer it as a sfraves archive. 

c
 -- 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sea>of<sin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
   D  E  M  A  N  D    T  H  E    F  L  O  W    O  F    R  H  Y  T  H  M
>>>>kawakami@noc.usfca.edu>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<kawakami@alm.admin.usfca.edu<<<
>>>>seaofsin@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>>>><<<<<<<<<cin@coreys.berkeley.edu<<<<<<<<


From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 14:06:02 1993
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From: Mark Metz / Future Forum <mmetz@soda.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <9309112106.AA04258@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject: burning man 9/11/93
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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a burning man will be torched on the south end of ocean beach this saturday
evening as darkness approaches. one of the figures never made it to the desert
so tonight it will burn. some one came in the store and let us know,

salutations,

allen@AMEBA

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 16:20:10 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1993 16:20:16 -0700
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To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Video of Burning Man?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

        Evidently a documentary of the Burning Man ceremonies last weekend
will be shown soon on HBO... can anyone verify?

        Wow, that and "And the Band Played On"... maybe I should sign up.

        Brian

p.s. - I found this and thought you might be interested....

Article 13807 of ucb.general:
Path: agate!uclink.berkeley.edu!resist
From: resist@uclink.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: alt.activism.progressive,alt.politics.radical-left,ba.general,ucb.general,alt.org.food-not-bombs
Subject: FOOD NOT BOMBS ARRESTS CONTINUE AFTER ONE WEEK
Date: 11 Sep 1993 07:31:16 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <26rus4$vf@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: uclink.berkeley.edu
Xref: agate alt.politics.radical-left:4638 ba.general:24585 ucb.general:13807 alt.org.food-not-bombs:70

>From resist Fri Sep 10 23:01:30 1993
Subject: Food Not Bombs arrests continue after one week...
To: 
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 23:01:30 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5009      
Status: OR

FOOD NOT BOMBS ARRESTS CONTINUE AFTER ONE WEEK

As of Friday afternoon (September 10), 41 food servers and witnesses have
been arrested and two vehicles confiscated as part of SF Mayor Frank Jordan's
campaign to eliminate Food Not Bombs/San Francisco (FNB). Jordan initiated
this campaign last Thursday, September 2, when San Francisco Police
arrested twelve members of FNB for serving free food.

Yesterday (9/9/93), six people were arrested at the lunch serving in front
of SF City Hall and a vehicle was confiscated. Three of those arrested
belonged to AYUDA, a Latino homeless organization connected with the
Coalition on Homelessness (the Coalition is not a standard liberal
"homeless industry" group but rather an autonomous group organized by the
homeless and housed together on an equal basis). The vehicle also belonged
to AYUDA. Today, twenty police descended on the lunch serving and arrested
two people. Their attempt to arrest a third person was frustrated when
that person jumped into a nearby fountain. The police, not wanting to get
their nice riot jumpsuits wet, decided against going into the fountain to
arrest him. They waited over an hour for him to come out, coaxing
him with promises of lessened charges, but he told them that he would only
come out if they promised him full amnesty for all those arrested in the
last week. The police tired after an hour and left, leaving him free to
escape. Last Wednesday (9/8/93), FNB held a large demonstration in front
of SF City Hall attended over 250 people. As members of the city's elite,
dressed in tuxedos and ball gowns entered city hall to celebrate the start
of the opera season, FNB served food and marched around the building
despite the presence of many riot police.

Most of those arrested have been charged with violating a court injunction
that prohibits FNB from serving free food to homeless and hungry on the
grounds that FNB refuses to apply for the "proper" permits. FNB has
applied for permits in the past, but under a 1991 Parks and Recreation
Commission regulation (a commission composed of direct mayoral
appointees), NO PERMITS ARE TO BE ISSUED TO ORGANIZATIONS SEEKING TO GIVE
AWAY FREE FOOD IN CITY PARKS OR OTHER PROPERTIES. This regulation was
created specifically to criminalize FNB. The court injunction is ludicrous
considering that no permit even exists to apply for.

Both the court injunction and the Parks and Recreation regulation
are political ploys originated by former Mayor Art Agnos. Agnos used the
injunction and a prior one to arrest over 300 people between 1988 and 1991.
For the past two years, however, the court order stood unused and no one
was arrested for serving free food, despite FNB's twice-daily meals. Of
the hundreds of people who have been arrested since 1988, nobody has been
convicted.

This latest campaign to eliminate FNB comes as part of Mayor Jordan's
Matrix "Quality of Life" Operation. Jordan has assigned special units of the
San Francisco Police to certain areas of the city (the downtown and the
primarily Latino Mission District) whose sole purpose is to criminalize
homelessness through the arrest and harassment of the homeless themselves. 
Hundreds of people have been arrested or cited as part of this program
since it began at the start of August. The campaign to eliminate FNB is
part of the Matrix Operation; as well as attacking the homeless directly,
Jordan has decided to attack any support structures that the homeless may
have.

Jordan has also directed his attacks against other communities.
Specifically, he has joined the anti-immigration bandwagon that has been
building momentum in California (as it has been all across the United
States and other advanced capitalist countries). Jordan led the
(successful) attempt to overturn the city's sanctuary ordinance. This
ordinance prohibited the the City of San Francisco or the San Francisco
Police from cooperating with the Immigration and Naturalization Service of
the federal government (INS). Clamoring that the city's jails were
being overrun by "illegals", Jordan succeded in re-writing the ordinance so
that the police could cooperate with the INS if someone was arrested for a
felony. Of course, the number of felony bookings of Latino surnamed
arrestees has increased by 500% since the ordinance was changed.

To show solidarity with San Francisco FNB, call Mayor Jordan's office at
(415) 554-6141 and tell him what you think of his campaign against the
poor, the hungry, and people of color. Although Jordan isn't the sole
responsible party for the fascist trends in SF, he is the primary
spokesperson and point-man of the fascist element in the city.

For more info, to comment or to support SF FNB contact resist@igc.apc.org
or andyrose@netcom.com. Or call FNB voice mail at (415) 330-5030.

From
          \o/  Infoshop berkeley 
            \o/  3124 Shattuck Ave 
              \o/  Berkeley, CA 94705  U$A 
                \o/   510-848-6466 
                  \o/   resist@uclink.berkeley.edu


-- 


          \o/  Infoshop berkeley 
            \o/  3124 Shattuck Ave 



From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 17:12:12 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1993 17:12:19 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Guide to Outdoor Parties
Cc: socal-raves@ucsd.edu, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

This is version 0.9 of something I've been promising to write for a long
time and finally found it in myself to come up with.  It's basically a
guide to attending renegade parties, the do's, the don'ts, everything.
There are a few, er, choice words for certain things in here but I stand
behind everything I say.  However, I'm sure it could use grammatical and
structural revision and possible additions.  I hereby submit it for your
perusal, and if you have comments let me know.  If you like what you see,
feel free to copy it to other mailing lists or make hardcopies and hand
them out or whatever; when I get comments on it I'll be making a few 
laser-printed nicely-laid-out copies in Word or something to hand out to
the general public.  I welcome any and all comments....

        Brian

p.s. - if you reply, make sure to not reply to every mailing list I'm
sending this to, but just here or the mailing list you're local to....

		     ICONEKT COMMUNIKATION 1

			 GOING OUTDOORS


This summer has seen quite a few outdoor renegade parties.  Everything
from the large full moons every month to the smaller parties such as
Xochipili and Harmony and the Mother Earth Sound System gigs showed
that people in this scene understand and appreciate the incredibly
liberating feel of dancing to house music in the out of doors, where
many people feel it belongs, despite what law enforcement and the
predominant government policies towards "public land" may dictate.

However, many of these parties have been busted, sometimes after a few
hours, sometimes in the morning, sometimes even before the sound got
going.  There were also cases where the people who came to celebrate
the beauties of the earth left a very distinct scar where the dance
floor was.

It doesn't have to be like this.  There is a LOT that you, as an
attendee of renegades, can do to help ensure that the party does go on
without a hitch.  What I am about to present here is a checklist, if
you will, of actions/thoughts/memes you should consider next time you
head out for that outdoor party.  These rules are primarily designed 
for the people attending renegades, though if you're throwing them you
should probably read these too.  

BE COVERT

There's a LOT of strategy involved in deciding on a site for the
party.  I'll save that for a later post; the advice I'll give here
presumes the organizers have done as much as they can to make it as
remote as possible.  But no place is gonna be 100% silent. so...

When driving to the site, do NOT blast techno out of your car windows.
You want to make the people living on the route to the site as
ignorant of your presence as possible; which means make SURE you know
your way there (a Thomas Bros. map is essential), have a full tank of
gas, and bring all the water and food and such you'll need with you.
Don't presume there'll be a 7-11 nearby; the quickest thing to alert
the locals is 40 ravers hanging out at 7-11 at 2am in the morning.
Try not to drive in big caravans, either, coz nothing will turn heads
like 20 cars following nose-to-tail down a deserted road.

Upon arriving at the site, there is a lot you can do to help ensure
that if/when police show up, they have as little to gripe about as
possible.  When you arrive, park as closely together with other cars
as you can, so that as many cars as possible can fit in the (probably
small) parking area.  If there is someone coordinating parking, listen
to what they have to say and don't try to find a closer space.  If
there's no one coordinating parking then use a bit of intelligence in
parking by avoiding obvious places and parking under NO PARKING signs
and such.  Sometimes you can't avoid the NO PARKING signs, so consider
any parking ticket you might get as payment to the local authorities 
to allow the party to go on - they usually won't ticket if they demand 
that you leave, and they'll only tow the people parked in really stupid
places, like where the shoulder of the road is only 2 feet wide or
something.  Besides, a $20 parking ticket gets stretched pretty thinly
between passangers if you carpool, which you should do as much as possible
anyways.

WORK THE VIBE

The best thing you can do now, if the music hasn't started, is leave
your car and go to where the actual site will be - or offer to help
carry equipment.  Basically, do ANYthing except be outside your car -
you wanna stay out of the parking lot.  I have seen more than a few
renegades busted because the music hadn't started yet and everyone
was around their cars, blaring music out of the speakers, drinking 40's,
setting off firecrackers, etc, and the cops could see it was just a bad 
scene - had all these people been down on the beach or on the grass
waiting for the sound system to start, it would have been completely
different.  Head straight for the site.  If there are residences nearby,
be as QUIET as possible when walking.  The last party at Berkeley Marina
was busted because people staying in the nearby hotel heard the people 
slamming their cars doors, not because of the giant sound system on the
other side of the hill.

Now, it's time for the three NO-NO's of outdoor events - the three things
which should not be present in any significant amount.  They are serious
VibeKillers, and even though separately they may be enjoyable they really
have a negative impact almost every time I've seen them at parties.

1) NITROUS.  Nitrous is fun, I've done it.  But Nitrous also brings a
mindset and a culture which makes it very antithetical to the outdoor
experience - when a guy shows up with a tank and starts selling
ballons for people, it does 2 things: it draws people away from the
vibe of the crowd, because when they suck on a balloon it takes them
into a world of their own for a while, lost in their own headspace,
pretty much uncommunicative with anyone else.  It also creates that
"nitrous greed", where you want more and the seller wants to sell you
more and more and more money exchanges hands.  I could care less what
you want to do at your own parties, the constant SHSHSHSHSHSHSH sound
that is heard at many parties these days is like a drill to those of
us who wish it wasn't there.  And you KNOW it's a lot more obvious to
police, and gives them a huge fucking reason to shut us down.

2) ALCOHOL.  This has probably been beat into the ground so it should
be obvious, but evidently not to many people.  Alcohol doesn't help
you dance, it doesn't help you stay up longer, it doesn't give you
energy beyond a short-term buzz, and it never works well in
combination with other psychedelics.  Again, it's not a drug I'm out
to abolish or anything, there are certainly times it's appropriate,
but like nitrous, is can seriously impair most vibes.  It's also the
only reason I've ever seen rudeness or violence break out and outdoor
parties.

3) FIRECRACKERS.  This wasn't a problem until a few months ago, but at 
the August 1st FMR, when someone set off a bottle rocket, I heard one 
ranger say to the other, "that's it, we gotta shut this down".  And I
don't need to remind you all of near-disaster of the hill fire at
Let Freedom Rave last July (we are the luckiest scene on the face of this
earth, I tell you.)  Please, for the sake of the party, don't bring em.

Okay, *phew* sorry about all that vitriol.  Now to more positive things.

RESPECT THE MOTHER

One goal of outdoor parties has always bheen to leave the place "cleaner
than we found it".  However, even if we take out all our trash the mark
we leave is totally obvious.  There are things you can do to minimize your
impact:

Respecting the mother means if it's grassy, take off your shoes.  I do
this all the time, and never catch a cold because the rest of my body
is warm.  If you can't stand the cold, get some thick wool socks; the
goal is to tear up the ground as little as possible.  Even tennis
shoes are better than, say, docs or hiking boots.  I've seen gorgeous
grassy fields turned into mudpits after a single renegade because
people wore boots with think cleats and insisted on doing a shuffle
dance.

Respecting the mother means not tearing down plants and defecating or
urinating in bushes if portapotties are within any sort of walk.
Respecting the mother means looking out for signs which say
"endangered species", and staying away.  Respecting the mother means
not pulling down live trees to add wood to a fire (I've seen all these
happen).

And finally, respecting the mother means not throwing cigarrette butts
on the ground.  Put them in a spare pocket or throw them in a trash can.  
But they are NOT recyclable, contrary to popular belief. 

Why is this important to the non-bust-ness of a party?  If a ranger
comes and sees that people are keeping to themselves and not harming
the land, which is what he's worried about, then he may be persuaded
to simply let us go.  But the other extreme is the Palo Alto Estuary
ranger after the FMR in May, who was so enraged with the treatment the
wetlands got that there is now a cop sitting in the parking lot EVERY
NIGHT.  "Don't ever come back!"  he reportedly said to the last car of
ravers out of there.

DON'T FLINCH

I have been to VERY few parties where the police do not arrive.  And 
actually, to be honest, I feel better if the police arrive, talk to 
people, and leave, than if they never know about it at all.  There is
*nothing* inherently immoral in gathering outdoors to dance to music - 
we may be violating specific laws regarding sound permits and "park
closing hours" (why should public parks have closing hours??), but 
the right to assembly is guaranteed by the constitution.

So, when the police do arrive, the handling of the situation needs to
be very careful.  There are two main scenerios I've seen:

1) The police arrive to see what's going on, they find a group of
happy people dancing.  No local residents have complained, there's no
danger of violence emanating from the group (cops can sense that
"vibe" too), there's no alcohol or other obvious drug use (though
everyone there may be off their gord in one way or another!) and the
site isn't getting trashed.  At this point, they may decide to simply
let the party progress.  What is important here is that you treat the
officers with dignity and respect, and understand that they are only
doing a job thrust upon them by superiors.  For those of you who are
confident and not tripping and understand what their situation is, go
up and say hello, introduce yourself, explain what's going on, etc.
Be gentle, tell them you understand the park is closed, etc.  BE
HONEST.  You don't have to give your name, but if the timing and
attitude is right giving your name and showing ID might build trust
with them.  Tell them the site will be cleaned up in the morning, the
place will be left "cleaner than we found it".  Anyways, eventually
you may be able to build up a level of trust, either personally or
from the group, and the officer may simply say, "okay, I wasn't here.
But if the site is trashed in the morning..."  and at that point
you're clear.  Keep in mind that busting a party is not a small task,
and a couple of cops probably won't want to go through the paperwork
to do it unless they see some reason.  Give them no reason to go
through it, and they may let you go on.

2) The police arrive and are not happy.  Either they have a
pre-existing and media-formed bent against "your evil rave parties",
or something was done to really piss them off.  In such a situation,
there's not much you can do.  The party is over, and it should be
moved to a backup site.  You can try talking them into an hour more or
until sunrise or something, but do not see this as a battleground.
There is a time and place for everything, and a remote field is not
the place for a constitutional showdown.  The cops bark is worse than
its bite - they may threaten to haul everyone's ass to jail and
impound the equipment, but like I noted before it's a lot of work for
them; if everyone just packs up and leaves they're usually happy.
Feel free to catcall and cajole; but remember that usually the order
to disband the party comes from higher-ups than they.  The worst thing
to say: "do you really want a bunch of fucked-up kids on drugs on the
streets?".  Drugs are a real sore point, to say the least, so don't
even think of trying to use that as a bargaining tool!

It is important to remember what you are doing is NOT illegal.  It's
simply unpopular with the powers that be.  You wanna change that?  You
can, by sending letters to your city council, the mayor, to anyone you
feel has a direct influence upon policy.  Or, make an attempt to get
a site legally - it *can* be done, it just takes a bit of legwork and
cash.  Register to vote, register your friends, and make them know that
you wanna be HEARD.  Your rights are only yours if you choose to defend
them.

ENSURE THE FUTURE

If the party was successful, even if only for a few hours, be sure and
help out with donations so that the organizers will know their effort was
appreciated and so they can give some to the DJ's and sound guys and
whatnot.  You don't have to give a lot - $5 is a good figure to go by - 
but even beyond its monetary worth is the message *I believe in you*.  


There is a lot more to say on outdoor parties, but I think this will
be enough for now.  Look for future communikations on other topics....
If you have email you can send me feedback at iconekt@uclink.berkeley.edu.
See you outdoors!

	Brian


From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 17:25:07 1993
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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Message-Id: <9309120025.AA18014@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: and don't forget bootsy, bernie worrell, blacktronic science
To: mayer@netcom.com (Niels P. Mayer)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 93 17:25:24 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
In-Reply-To: <9309111856.AA00372@netcom3.netcom.com>; from "Niels P. Mayer" at Sep 11, 93 11:56 am
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Bootsy, Evelyn "Champagne" King, The Dazz Band, and Roger with Zapp are also
playing tonight at 8pm at the Circle Star Center in San Carlos (my
workplace). Ticket price is $25.75 and I know there are still plenty of good
seats if anyone is interested. 

Tamara

-- 

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 18:43:05 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309120143.AA02131@netcom5.netcom.com>
Subject: Can't Envision Sonoma ...
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 93 18:43:24 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Well , I called the VISION , number , and it looks to be out in Sonoma!
Kind of far for someone who now lives in Sunnyvale. However , there is a bus
leaving from San Jose- maybe I'll try it.

 So , I may or may not see you folks there ... 

				Larry Ching/larryc@netcom.com

-- 

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 18:47:38 1993
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From: Mark Metz / Future Forum <mmetz@soda.berkeley.edu>
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Subject: TAZ/Kommotion Sept. 18th
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1993 18:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
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TAZ/Kommotion is having a party benifet for the temporary workers union
sept. 18th , japaneese dancers, multi media stuff, live stuff, djs, and
the pagan,hippy freak out that both orgs. are renown for. SOLS-666 taz #

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 11 21:42:56 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309120421.AA03153@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, mayer@netcom.com
Subject: Re: and don't forget bootsy, bernie worrell, blacktronic science
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> From techno.Stanford.EDU!SFRaves-owner@cdp.igc.org Sat Sep 11 12:12:14 1993
> Return-Path: <techno.Stanford.EDU!SFRaves-owner@cdp.igc.org>
> To: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
> Subject: and don't forget bootsy, bernie worrell, blacktronic science
> Date: Sat, 11 Sep 93 11:56:26 -0700
> From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
> Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU
> Content-Length: 644
> X-Lines: 14
> Status: RO
> 
> 
> Bootsy Collins' Rubber Band w/ special guests Bernie Worrell and
> Blacktronic Science are playing at Bimbo's in SF on Sunday the 12th.
> Two shows @ 7:30 and 10:30 -- $20.00. Hurry up and get yer tix if it's
> not already sold out.
> 
> This should be a groovy funky dance event.
> 
> (Nimble dialing "fingers" paid off again and I won two complimentary
> tix to the early show on the radio (KFJC)).... Anybody else going?

Damn Niels, is all you do is sit at home listen to the radio
and dial for tix?

From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 12 12:55:08 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309121955.AA10311@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Outdoor Sound
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 12:55:28 PDT
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 Does anybody out there have any sugestions for sound euipment that would
survive the outdoors for 6 to 12 hours at a time? The equipment I was 
particularly interested in was:

1. Preamps , mixers.

2. Compression units , equalizers , and other sound modifiers.

3. Power amps.

 The kind of environments I was thinking of were those of the "typical"
outdoor rave - beaches , dusty lots , foggy/drizzly parks. I'm assuming that 
I could have a covering of some kind to keep the direct moisture and
sunlight off the equipment ( kind a big case and/or a tarp or small tent ).

 If there are magazines that review this kind of stuff , I'd research it
myself , but I don't know what those magazines/trade journals are. Do people
in the business of sound reinforcement go by word-of-mouth , or is there
some other avenues of information?


 As always , I'll be glad to get replies by personal email , and then 
compile the answers and post it to SFRaves. 

					Larry Ching/larryc@netcom.com

PS - Should I repost this to a newsgroup(s) ? alt.raves ? 

From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 12 16:13:52 1993
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From: Velocity-9 <punkboy@u.washington.edu>
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Subject: tint's number in seattle?
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993 16:13:49 -0700 (PDT)
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hey hey sfravers and ne-ravers...

gotta problem!  tint and sasha were to have shown up last night
in seattle, but i haven't yet heard from 'em.  unfortunately,
my home phone number is unlisted here (it comes from being a doctor...)
and so if they've forgotten it or similar they won't be able to get it!

does anyone know the number of the apartment mike is supposed to
be housesitting?  or any way for me to get in touch with them at all?

-gts/uwiz (Greg Samson, punkboy@u.washington.edu, erstwhile microwiz of vrave)

From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 12 21:59:16 1993
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From: Robert Jesse <rjesse@us.oracle.com>
Message-Id: <9309130556.AA01916@lila.us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: forfeiture
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

From: pendell@netcom.com (Dale Alexander Pendell)
Date: 8 Sep 93 17:59:08 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Subject: Calif forfeiture law

California's asset forfeiture law expires this year, unless it is renewed this
week, which, due to an intense police lobby effort, seems likely.  This abusive
law subverts the most fundamental principles of American/English/Anglo-Saxon
justice: that is, your property can be seized on suspicion on the part of the 
police, and you have to prove your innocence to THEM.

Fax your state assemblyman and state senator immediately and urge them not to
renew the forfeiture law.  

Many horror stories of police abuse of this law were documented in the San Jose
Mercury News last week.

From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 12 22:40:42 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
Message-Id: <9309130541.AA03655@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: WOMAD
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	I was wondering if any sfravers were heading to WOMAD this
Sunday.. I'm going.

-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 06:54:03 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 14:54:56 BST
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To: JACOB%SLACVM.BITNET@cmsa.berkeley.edu
Cc: jocelyn@hal.com, sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: JACOB%SLACVM.BITNET@cmsa.berkeley.edu's message of Wed, 08 Sep 1993   18:00 -0800 (PST) <9309090105.AA01271@nak.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



  JACOB> i think e became popular in dallas tx (!!) clubs in mid-80's
  JACOB> . some distributor wanted to sell lots of it but it
  JACOB> eventually got the attention of the fda.  as for acid at
  JACOB> raves, i think it came from a misunderstanding in uk as to
  JACOB> the meaning of 'acid house.' they thought it meant u take
  JACOB> acid and dance to house music when in reality 'acid' here is
  JACOB> chicago slang for sampling or stealing bits of musick from
  JACOB> other people's songs.  hope this helps.  take
  JACOB> care/shalom/rave on ovid

Hmmm... the origin of the term "acid house" is often argued about.  I
have read that one of the Detroit clubs where some of the seminal acid
DJ's played had a reputation (almost certainly false...) for lacing
their tap water with LSD, and that the word "acid" could very probably
be a reference to this club (in much the same way that house was a
reference to the Warehouse, Chicago, and garage was a reference to the
Paradise Garage, New York....)

In particular, i have an article by a person who claims to have
invented the explanation that "acid house" is a refenence to sampling
and stealing sounds.  He says that it is completely false, and that he
spread this as deliberate misinformation to try and difuse the bad
media attention that the UK acid house parties were getting, trying to
play down the connection between the parties and drugs....


	Cosmic Roy

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 09:04:12 1993
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From: dionf@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Francois Dion)
Message-Id: <9309131600.AA19822@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Women DJs
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, bpm@andrew.cmu.edu, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 12:00:13 -0400 (EDT)
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Last night there was a real bad television report on women DJ and i'd like to
correct them a bit. So, there is  a list of women DJ floating around and beeing
updated regularly. Anybody has the most recent? In case my message was not
added the last time, here are some club women djs from Montreal:

Martyne Prevost
Bettina Costenzo
X-rated Marie
Lucky Luce
Mescaline

The blurb said: "We have searched hard, and only found 2 women DJs in all of
the province of Quebec". Yeah, right... very hard. These 5 are well known in
the club circuit. Then, you have the ones that spin at micro raves and
underground events. Plus, of course radio DJs. And i think they count as much
because there are a lot of DJs who dont even beat match, and radio DJs have
a larger crowd listening to them too. And there are probably women DJs in other
clubs too which i dont know.

I also find it very strange that neither Martyne or Bettina or InBeat staff
(where the tv crew got some footage along with Campus and Kox) didn't say a
word about the other female DJs in Montreal or the others in the province,
Canada and of course the States (at least 2 of them came to Montreal to spin:
DJ Laura of ne-raves fame of course and another at Metropolis which i dont
remember the name right now. Oh and Bettina was at R.E.C., so she saw you
spin, Laura...).

And well, there are things like YSH in SF, something i'd like to happen here
too, but people dont seem to be ready for that. Not the ravers, the DJs (male
and female). Oh well...

Yousef> i said 3 DJs, because Lucky Luce and Martyne Prevost dont spin techno
at all.

Ciao,
-- 
Francois Dion
    '  _   _   _ 
 CISM (_) (_)  _) FM       Montreal , Canada       Email: CISM@ERE.UMontreal.CA
      (_)  / . _)             10000 Watts          Telephone no: (514) 343-7511
_______________________________________________________________________________
Audio-C-DJ-Fractals-Future-Label-Multimedia-Music-Radio-Rave-Video-VR-Volvo-...



From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 09:05:33 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309131605.AA14478@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>Hmmm... the origin of the term "acid house" is often argued about. 

Yawn.  Historical data can be fun if you're playing a game of Trivial
Pursuit, but I often wonder why people spend so much energy attempting
to recreate some vision of the past in their minds.  Unless the information 
has relevance to our understanding of Now and the Future, I say let's
move on.  One thing I love about house music is that it treats all available
information as equal.  Stuff from every musical genre can be sampled and
reused because it is relevant to what the music is trying to put across
*today*, not for some nostalgic trip for people who are trying to relive 
feelings from their past.  History makes for fun reading, and I have always 
been fascinated by archeology, paleantology, etc., but please, can't we at
least wait for the Rave Era to near completion before writing it's
obituary? 

Sorry for the negativity, I guess I'm still recovering from all the disco 
that was played at Boogie Buffet where I was kicking myself for not going 
to Vision the night before. 

- leg of eel

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 09:17:29 1993
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From: dionf@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Francois Dion)
Message-Id: <9309131613.AA21306@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Acid House
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 12:13:29 -0400 (EDT)
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The term acid, in reference to acid house, does not come from the drug. Of
course acid was popular at acid house gatherings (acid parties as they were
refered to here).  But the reason, at least back in 87 when i first got into
that scene, the term was used was because the sound was really transformed
and usually were in reference to strange echoey voices, brakes and backspins
and not in reference to the TB-303 which is now refered to as the acid machine
(since about 90 i think) after it had been used in a lot of acid house, so
people said, oh yeah the acid bass sound... Brakes can be heard for example on
KLF WTIL (SSL). Oh, and i also forgot, the acid hit. Kinda like an orchestral
hit, but weird sounding.

The reference to stealing bits has nothing to do with acid. Dont know how this
got started. However, in acid jazz, this definition would make sense.

Ciao,
-- 
Francois Dion
    '  _   _   _ 
 CISM (_) (_)  _) FM       Montreal , Canada       Email: CISM@ERE.UMontreal.CA
      (_)  / . _)             10000 Watts          Telephone no: (514) 343-7511
_______________________________________________________________________________
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From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 09:42:12 1993
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 09:40:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Arthur Chandler <arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Reply-To: Arthur Chandler <arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: Rave History Not Trivial Pursuit
To: Lee Fogel <lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com>
Cc: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <9309131605.AA14478@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
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   I agree that *history* can degenerate into trivial-pursuit type
details, and I agree that the continual announcement of the "death of
raving" can be annoying to those who still find it very much alive. But
I've got to stand up for the pursuit of historical understanding. Unless
you're a prophet, the future is beyond our grasp. The present is a moving,
razorthin edge. Everything we know is in the past, and our understanding
has to be based on how we put together the pieces of the past into a
coherent picture of how the world coheres.
  If all you want to do is dance, that's cool. Putting yourself in synch
with the rhythms and the other dancers is most of what raving is about.
But the next day, when you're sitting in a cafe or just walking through
Golden Gate Park, you might want to think about where things you care
about came from, and how you fit into that evolutionary picture. Like it
or not, we're all part of a bigger picture in time and space. The Beats,
the Hippies of the Haight; UK crop circle raves, Detroit house, Kraftwerk
-- these aren't just tidbits for QuizShow 2000: they're part of our heritage
as SF Ravers. To learn about that heritage isn't just "nice to know": it's
a form of respect we pay to the people who came before us: they had their
ideas, danced their dances, made their music, and passed it on to us. Now
its our turn. 
  And what will we give to those coming along next?





From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 10:28:23 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 18:29:01 BST
Message-Id: <8703.9309131729@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: dionf@ere.umontreal.ca, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Francois Dion's message of Mon, 13 Sep 1993 12:13:29 -0400 (EDT) <9309131613.AA21306@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Re: Acid House
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


The reference to acid house meaning stealing things is a deliberate
piece of misinformation that was spread by a member of the YOung
Conervatives as part of a campaign called Freedom to Party.  The media
had latched on to the idea that people took acid at acid house
parties, and he needed to publicize an explanation to support his
(false) claim that the party scene had nothing to do with drugs.  So
he just made an explanation up, and it has become quite well known
now, and repeated in print many times....

The article appears in an appendix to Saunders' book, E for Ecstasy....

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 10:56:05 1993
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From: Ravi Vinodrai Gadhia <rg@CS.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <9309131755.AA05543@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Visions?
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 10:55:58 -0700 (PDT)
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Hippy Monday!

Someone must have gone to Vision?  Well...how was it?  The previous
one was absolutely out-of-sight, out-of-mind, out-of-body (!) ....

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 11:36:23 1993
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From: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Message-Id: <9309131833.AA28603@slack>
Subject: XDZebra Review #36
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF Raves),
        nm-list@reef.cis.ufl.edu (New Music List),
        ne-raves@silver.lcs.mit.edu (NE Raves),
        manchester@irss.njit.edu (Manchester),
        mw-raves@engin.umich.edu (Midwest Raves),
        socal-raves@ucsd.edu (So Cal Raves), dcraves@american.edu (DC Raves),
        seraves@american.edu (SE Raves), thomas@apple.com (a)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 12:33:29 -0600 (MDT)
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XDZebra Review #36

        Addiction
        266 Delmar Ct.
        Salt Lake City, UT 84101-1817

When in Utah call the T A S T E hotline 801-461-3375.

Trying to find these releases?  Try Ear/Rational Music:
Email angst@psych.colorado.edu

Back issues are available from me by mail or by ftp'ing to techno.stanford.edu.
They're in the pub/raves/music/reviews directory.

XDZebra Reviews may be reproduced without permission under one condition,
they remain intact and unchanged.  If you publish this in print, mail me a
copy via "Addiction".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Review #36 Contents:
DWFS: Hemispheres
Compilation 3
Digital Odyssey - A Cybersonic Adventure
Harthouse America - A Taste of Hard Trance
Pod Communication Presents: Atom Heart
Moby: Move EP
Amorphous Androgynous EP
Futurhythms [Promo]


DWFS: Hemispheres
Adrenalin/Micmac: ADR 9205
1  146	05:04 Drome in Effect
2  145	07:15 Snowbound
3  139	03:46 Sphynx
4  152	03:42 Quake
5  	00:15 Chant

Comments: DWFS produces hardcore that lies somewhere between Brooklyn and
Aphex.  There seems to be a single underlying theme to this EP, probably due
to the use of the 808 kickdrum on every track.  However, tracks like "Sphynx"
and especially "Quake" turn in an extremely noisy excursion over the analog
dial, tart and sour.  "Snowbound" is an attempt at hard trance, but it is so
cliched with the use of chorals it really is a sagging point on the disc.

Summary: 6/10.  A good use of analogs, but the rhythms in the background tend
to bore.


Compilation 3
FAX: PK 08/05
CD 1:
1  148	05:39 Deltraxx: Arcangel (Red Stripe Mix)
2  144	07:12 Limelight: rerum natura (pluris costare Mix)
3  144	06:59 Hearts of Space: All About Sensuality
4  136	09:27 Sequential: A Trip to Paradise
5  134	07:44 Olympic: Marathon - London
6  152	05:27 Crypt Corp.: It's All Around Us
7  160	05:17 Sythadelic: I'm A Secretary
8  157	06:07 Minimalistic Source: Minimalistic Overboost
9  126	06:25 Harmonize: Mediterranean Moods
CD 2:
1  145	06:28 Eternal Spirit (Northern Mix)
2  144	04:50 Oversize Pussy: Orange
3  160	06:05 Subsequence: Walking in my Dreams
4  140	06:19 Stanley Conaway: Pepperbee
5  128	11:32 Sequential: Saturn Cruises
6  140	08:50 Sextant: Global System
7  155	06:12 Escape: Escape to Neptune
8  144	08:02 Syn: If Only You Could See...
9  145	05:52 4Voice: Move

Comments: Yet another severely cool compilation from FAX records.  Not content
to produce just excellent hard trance anymore, this compilation branches into
experimental with "Saturn Cruises", acid jazz with "Mediterranean Moods",
progressive house with "Pepperbee" and head bleeding hardcore with "Move".
"Move", however, is on the Hoover vacuum side, 4Voice has definitely produced
better stuff in the past.  As for the the staple hard trance and trance, it is
completely up to par.  "Escape to Neptune", "rerum natura", and the Sequential
tracks are among my favorites.  Olympic's "Marathon - London" is an
interesting bow to a certain Kraftwerk piece, except this time its on foot.  I
like Olympic's vision better.

Summary: 9/10.  Another wonderful comp from FAX.  This time on two discs.
Pricey, but more music for the money.


Digital Odyssey - A Cybersonic Adventure
Moonshine Music: M 50087-2
1  123	06:42 Masters at Work Feat. India: I Can't Get No Sleep
2  125	05:06 Desire: Try the Love in Me
3  130	06:03 Crunch: Devo
4  128	08:19 Whoosh: Sometimes
5  132	05:26 Transform: Transformation
6  138	04:58 Aphrodite: Break of Day
7  130	05:25 E.K.O.: De La Casa
8  133	05:51 Decadance: Jump to It
9  140	05:16 Cold Automatic Eyes: Nasty Groove
10 137	05:54 Dektition: Love Rush
11 129	07:44 Free Love Foundation: Take My Love

Comments: A domestic collection of newish house grooves.  Most of the tracks
on here fall distinctly under garage house, and unfortunately, that is the
wrong end of the spectrum for me.  I do enjoy Transform's "Transformation" and
high breakability of Aphrodite's "Break of Day" but that is about it for this
compilation.  Dektition does merit some mention, but only for the fact that
they sound just like Altern8.

Summary: 4/10.  Yet another comp for house lovers.  Be wary if you're not
ready for divas and disposable music.


Harthouse America - A Taste of Hard Trance
Moonshine Music: M 50085-2
1  138  05:29 Arpeggiators: The Spirit Makes You Move
2  140  04:59 Hardfloor: Acperience III
3  150  07:19 Futurhythm: Red Heat
4  136  06:07 Barbarella: Barbarella I
5  153  05:08 Arpeggiators: Trancemission
6  143  06:27 Spicelab: Wierdo

Comments: Instead of simply domesticating the excellent Harthouse comp, "The
Point of No Return Chapter 1", Moonshine elected to give a fresher perspective
on what Harthouse is up to.  Arpeggiators kicks things off with their standard
fare of hardtrance and breathy female vocals, then another visit to the
"Acperience" progression is due with #3.  "Red Heat" is a disappointing entry
by "Futurythm".  It just seems to be another 303 wank, it certainly doesn't
compare to "Butoh".  "Barbarella I" is a bit harder than expected from
Barbarella, but no surprise to owners of the album.  Then Arpeggiators returns
with a noisy crusher in "Trancemission" which is definitely the highlight of
this collection.  Finally, Spicelab does an uncharacteristic soft trance
track.  They definitely do acid much better.

Summary: 6/10.  Good stuff from Harthouse via Moonshine, but not enough.  Most
tracks seem to be just the latest instead of the greatest.


Pod Communication Presents: Atom Heart
Pod/Sonic/Instinct: SNC-2026-2
1  138  05:29 M/S/O: Move Right Now
2  160  06:01 Urban Primitivism: 684
3  127  05:47 Datacide: Ritual of Transparency
4  137  05:18 Bi-Face: Mouthpad
5  132  06:27 Ongaku: Mihon No3
6  111  08:26 Lisa Carbon and Friends: Swing Me Machine
7  154  05:44 Atomu Shinzu: Red
8  132  06:35 M/S/O: Shiny Flowers
9  136  05:22 D'ammond: I Want You
10 127  06:34 i: 23'rd Autumn
11 134  04:59 Millenium: Vektor
12      07:25 Atom Heart: One Atomsecond

Comments:  Well on its way to becoming the noisiest, most acidic label in
techno, Atom Heart's Pod Communication becomes domestic to the states via
Sonic/Instinct.  This collection is a top notch example of Heart's work and
collaborations.  Every track has his stamp on it, save Pete Namlook's guest
appearance with Millenium.  Atom Heart is definitely the Richard James of
Germany and although he is only starting to come close in quantity, he is
starting to topple James with variety.  "Red" by Atomu Shinzu has to be heard
to be believed, techno by forced machine labor.

Summary: 8/10.  Noisecore to the fullest with the right amount of funky
variety, "Atom Heart" is a piece of distinguished work.


Moby: Move EP
Elektra: 61569-1 & ED 5663
Side A:
1  132	Move (You Make Me Feel So Good)
2  141	Morning Dove
Side B:
1  138	All That I Need Is To Be Loved
2  165	Unloved Symphony
Promo A:
1  132	Move (You Make Me Feel So Good)
2  140	Move (Sub Version)
3  132	Move (Radio Edit)
Promo B:
1  123	Move (M.K. Blades Mix)
2  151	Move (Disco Threat)
3  131	Move (Xtra Mix)

Comments: Moby's first release on Elektra is very much in his trademarked
style.  A nice variety of mixes is included on the extra promo vinyl, with the
energetic "Disco Threat" mix, and the ultrasmooth "Xtra Mix".  The main
problem with "Move" is the fact that it does bear a strong resemblance to his
past hits.  There isn't any real progression here.  Wailing divas and smashing
piano riffs, but no innovation.  The "Love" side of the EP is positive proof
that hanging around Liam Howlett for too long can be detrimental.  It is
Moby's first shot at fast breakbeat, and with the overhanging symphonic
strains, it sounds too much like Prodigy's "Weather Experience".  One track
though, stands far apart from the rest, the incredible tribal-middle-Eastern
whatmayyoucallit "Morning Dove".

Summary: 5/10.  A bit of a disappointment as far as new material for Moby.
Some killer remixing as usual, with one fantastic track in particular.


Amorphous Androgynous EP    [45]
Astralwerks: CAROL 6102
Side 1:
1  129	Liquid Insects
Side 2:
1  115	Mountain Goat
2  136	Skyscraper

Comments:  With just one bonus track on this EP that is not present on
the album, and no remixes, this release makes you wonder just why
they did it.  "Skyscraper" is a spacey, rubber-sounding mover, but
is definitely bottom material for Cobain and Dougans.  The other two
tracks are identical to the album.

Summary: 6/10.  Not bad, just pointless.  It would have been better
as a 33 with a few remixes tossed in.


Futurhythms
Warner Bros/Giant/Medicine: PRO-A 6474
Side A:
1  125  05:22 Leftfield: Song of Life (Club Mix)
2  125  04:18 Leftfield: Song of Life (Radio Edit)
Side B:
1  130  05:29 Q.B.N.Z.: A Great New Adventure
2  126  06:22 Young American Primitive: Young American Primitive

Comments: This is a short promo preview of a compilation being released soon.
The reason for release is to mainly get "Song of Life" on the floors before
releasing "Futurhythms".  Frankly, the press release excites me more than this
12".  Artists like Jungle High, Moby, The Tripp, and Sven Vath will all be
included.  As for "Song of Life" itself, this is the first time I've heard it
and it is probably the best thing I've heard out of Leftfield.  All four
tracks on here make good use of female vocal samples, but YAP stomps all over
the other two groups in structure and progression.  "A Great New Adventure" is
weak and lacks any real intelligence.

Summary: 7/10.  The compilation looks exciting, although most of the tracks
have been available on import for a while.  I think they could have picked a
better frontrunner than "Song of Life".

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 11:55:01 1993
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 13:50:36 CDT
From: michaeld@ecs.comm.mot.com (Michael Dvorkin)
Message-Id: <9309131850.AA04672@cc110>
To: dcraves@american.edu, manchester@irss.njit.edu, mw-raves@engin.umich.edu,
        ne-raves@bronze.lcs.mit.edu, nm-list@reef.cis.ufl.edu,
        pashdown@slack.sim.es.com, seraves@american.edu,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu, thomas@apple.com
Subject: Re:  XDZebra Review #36
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>> Compilation 3 FAX:PK 08/05

Should it not be Compilation 4.....?
Compilation 3 was an ambient collection last time I saw it, and it's been around for
quite a long time.... And track listing is pretty different....


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 12:20:02 1993
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 10:57:50 PDT
From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309131758.AA28016@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu, uunet!srv.pacbell.com!lxfogel@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Rave History (was: Rhythm at Townsends)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The reason I want to hear the history now is because as the further into
the future we get the more the misinformation proliferates and I'd like to
hear about this stuff now when theres only, say two or three rumoured
explanations as oposed to five, six or more.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 12:20:18 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 20:21:26 BST
Message-Id: <10791.9309131921@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: uk-dance@orbital.demon.co.uk, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Universe....
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



I hear a rumour that Universe have gone bust....  any truth in
this....?  

(Care to comment, Miles?  If this isn't true then it looks like
someone's been spreading rumours.....  If it is true, then it's a real
shame....)


	Cosmic Roy

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 12:44:51 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309131801.AA04489@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, sameer@netcom.com
Subject: Re: WOMAD
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> From techno.Stanford.EDU!SFRaves-owner@cdp.igc.org Mon Sep 13 00:14:13 1993
> Return-Path: <techno.Stanford.EDU!SFRaves-owner@cdp.igc.org>
> From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
> Subject: WOMAD
> To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 93 22:41:03 PDT
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
> Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU
> Content-Length: 110
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> Status: RO
> 
> 	I was wondering if any sfravers were heading to WOMAD this
> Sunday.. I'm going.
> 
> -- 
> Sameer
> sameer@netcom.com
> 
Yeah, I'm going.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 12:47:24 1993
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From: ebh@usl.com
Subject: Re: XDZebra Review #36
To: michaeld@ecs.comm.mot.com (Michael Dvorkin)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 15:38:09 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: dcraves@american.edu, manchester@irss.njit.edu, mw-raves@engin.umich.edu,
        ne-raves@bronze.lcs.mit.edu, nm-list@reef.cis.ufl.edu,
        pashdown@slack.sim.es.com, seraves@american.edu,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu, thomas@apple.com
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[Sorry for the wide distribution, but...]

> >> Compilation 3 FAX:PK 08/05
> 
> Should it not be Compilation 4.....?

Nope.

> Compilation 3 was an ambient collection last time I saw it, and it's been around for
> quite a long time.... And track listing is pretty different....

Nope again.  There are two series of compilations from Fax, the
regular ones and the ambient ones.  And they are not numbered
sequentially, they are numbered after the series of releases from
which their selections are taken.  There have been Compilations 1, 2
and 3, and Ambient Compilations 2 and 3.  There was no Ambient
Compilation 1.  Compilation 4 and Ambient compilation 4 are scheduled
for release during weeks 38 and 35 of 1993, respectively.

-Ed     SLiP
        "into something more comfortable"

        ne-raves Fax junkie

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 13:51:40 1993
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From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309132051.AA19974@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: VISION report
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Vision report
=============

  Sorry for being late,  but I attended VISION,  and it was truly amazing.
VERY BIG venue,  lots of room,  dance floor crowded,  but still lots of room
to move around.   Very low cigerett smoke level (Although smoking was banned,
nobody payed attention to no-smoking rule).   Chill out benefit factor about
a 6 on the 1 to 10 scale (Due to large space).   There was free water and
even ice.   The DJ's were totally awsome,  with good mix of techno, funk,  and
jazz.   Apparently the same security company as one of the previous raves,
as some of them recognized me and said "I saw you at the last event".  I think
it was Funkey Techno tribe at the Galleria.

  The Santa Rosa police appeared to be rather mellow,  and in a cheery mood.
At least the ones I encountered by the front door as I was chilling out.

  The location was convenient for me because I live in Marin and it took only
40 minutes to get to Santa Rosa.   I missed the Synergy video stuff,  as they
weren't present,  but the projector system was rather spacey.

  All in all,  I had a wonderful time,  and the smile factor was really up
there (About an 8 on the 1 to 10 scale).

  After that,  I went to Deep Forest at Big Heart city,  but missed Carlos's
set because I got ride with someone else,  and got home late.    But after that
I boogied over to Boogie Buffet,  which was REALLY GREAT.   It was very crowded,
more "housey" music than normal on the bright area,  as this was special party
for 2 DJ's and it went on till about 4 pm.   Saw a lot of the same people that
were at VISION.    Had LOTs of energy left (As I normally do),   and was dancing
for 2 hours straight non-stop.   Not even to chill out,  because I found a place
on dance floor where the air conditioner was blowing and was able to keep very
cool during the dancing.   For those that missed it,  I'm sorry that you could'nt
make it....

  Oh!  BTW,  I picked up Basics T-shirt...  It'e really awsome...

Cheers
CC

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 14:38:56 1993
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 14:38:45 PDT
From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309132138.AA18098@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu
Subject: Re: Rave History Not Trivial Pursuit
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Arthur says:
>  the future is beyond our grasp.

Except that it is something that we have some control over.  The ability
to influence the future puts it into our grasp to some extent.

> The present is a moving,
> razorthin edge. Everything we know is in the past, and our understanding
> has to be based on how we put together the pieces of the past into a
> coherent picture of how the world coheres.

This is true.  But because there is so much past (10 - 20 billion years
of it) we end up filtering most of it out in our attempts to understand
it.  The end result is usually a gross biased distortion of what really
happened.  There is very little hard data with supporting physical evidence 
when it comes to the explanations of the evolution of cultural trends.  
Even the memories of someone-who-was-there require lot's of corraboration.  
There's been a recent uproar in the the Psychology community as it is now 
being discovered in many cases, childhood memories of trauma and abuse that 
shrinks yank out from the subconscious of their patients are often memories 
of childhood *fantasies* with little basis in reality.  Just like people
who discover under hypnotism that they were once abducted by UFOs.  Human
experience is stored in RAM, not ROM.

Realizing that we can't even trust our own minds, "Reality" becomes a
pretty tenuous thing.  Linear thought (cause->effect->cause->effect)
itself is an oversimplified straightjacket of modern consciousness.  
What I'm trying to say here is that understanding what's *really* going on 
in the near-present/Now is a daunting enough task.   Knowing the true 
origin of "acid house" will not change our world view or inspire us
to act any differently.  All knowledge is valuable, but there is so
much to know and the bandwidth of our sensory input devices, (and the power
of our CPUs) is quite limited.  Choices have to be made as to what we're
going to focus our mental energy on, and we're all free to make any choices
we like.  Sometimes I just wonder why people make the choices they do.

> To learn about that heritage isn't just "nice to know": it's
> a form of respect we pay to the people who came before us: they had their
> ideas, danced their dances, made their music, and passed it on to us. Now
> its our turn. 
>   And what will we give to those coming along next?

In my naieve idealistic view of things, I don't see what we're doing in
life as a baton that get's handed over to the next runner in the race.
Raving, as an ageless openended evolutionary activity, is more than a 
cultural trend upon the ruins of which the next trend will spring forth.   
If three-year-old raver Andrew Miller is any example, the "next" generation 
will be raving alongside us long before we are ready to "pass it on" and
give them their "turn".  Our rituals will continuously evolve and we all 
will continue to *live* history together rather than ponder it from afar. 
Let's put an end to the idea of people waiting in line to be "next".  

Trivial details aside, dancing and trancing out to rhythm and sound has 
putting humans in touch with each other, themselves, and the Universe for
thousands of years.   If we're not careful, a historical perspective 
can narrow our view rather than broaden it.  If you want people to really
understand raving, do you lecture them on its musical origins?  No, you 
take them to a fucking rave!  If it'll make them feel better, I suppose
there's no big harm in feeding them questionable historic data to satisfy 
their idle curiosities later.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com
____________________________________________________________________________




From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 15:43:00 1993
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From: dionf@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Francois Dion)
Message-Id: <9309132238.AA12524@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Re: XDZebra Review #36
To: DCRAVES@AMERICAN.EDU
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 18:38:35 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-Reply-To: <199309131832.AA24529@condor.CC.UMontreal.CA> from "Pete Ashdown" at Sep 13, 93 12:33:29 pm
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> XDZebra Review #36
> 
> Futurhythms
> Warner Bros/Giant/Medicine: PRO-A 6474
> Side A:
> 1  125  05:22 Leftfield: Song of Life (Club Mix)
> 2  125  04:18 Leftfield: Song of Life (Radio Edit)
> Side B:
> 1  130  05:29 Q.B.N.Z.: A Great New Adventure
> 2  126  06:22 Young American Primitive: Young American Primitive
> 
> Comments: This is a short promo preview of a compilation being released soon.

Released domestic in Canada last week of july.

> Frankly, the press release excites me more than this
> 12".  Artists like Jungle High, Moby, The Tripp, and Sven Vath will all be
> included.

Song of life is actually the best song on this compilation. Patients by Moby
is not his best effort, by far.

> I think they could have picked a
> better frontrunner than "Song of Life".

For the house crowd, this is a real runner. The sales are quite good too.

Ciao,
-- 
Francois Dion
    '  _   _   _ 
 CISM (_) (_)  _) FM       Montreal , Canada       Email: CISM@ERE.UMontreal.CA
      (_)  / . _)             10000 Watts          Telephone no: (514) 343-7511
_______________________________________________________________________________
Audio-C-DJ-Fractals-Future-Label-Multimedia-Music-Radio-Rave-Video-VR-Volvo-...



From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 15:49:54 1993
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From: vampyre@uclink.berkeley.edu
Message-Id: <9309132127.AA21173@uclink.berkeley.edu>
Subject: afterhrs for 18, city hall tomorrow
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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I can't rememember if anything was previously posted about this, but tues,
around noon i believe, people are encouraged to gather in front of city hall
to show support for the issue of whether those 18, but under 21, should
be allowed to go to afterhours dance clubs, etc...since they are old
enough to vote, shouldn't they be able to enjoy thsemlves as well?

this issue is currently under heated debate, & if we all show support, for the
first time perhaps those of us under 21 will also be able to dance & have fun
without having to worry about being out late illegally/hassling with fake ID's
and so on.

It's about time.


doublecheck what time people will be gathering to be certain...

-j

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 15:52:11 1993
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From: nrg@netcom.com (Ethan I. Miller)
Message-Id: <9309132252.AA05769@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Dance Law@SF City Hall Tomorrow
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 15:52:31 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Tomorrow (Tuesday) Supervisor Hallinan is sponsoring a committee meeting to
propose changing current cabaret law so as to allow people 18+ to dance
past 2:30 am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meeting starts at 10:00 am, this item is sceduled for roughly 12:00 noon.
Needless to say, this would be a key event for us all to attend...

Meeting will take place at city hall either in the "chambers" or in room
228. Supe Hallinan's office has details. They can be reached at:
415.554.5184

see ya there
ethan
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 16:00:14 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 15:59:58 -0700
In-Reply-To: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
       "VISION report" (Sep 13,  1:51pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: VISION report
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Sep 13,  1:51pm, Crunch proclaimed:
}   Sorry for being late,  but I attended VISION,  and it was truly amazing.
} VERY BIG venue,  lots of room,  dance floor crowded,  but still lots of room
} to move around.   

I thought all things considered it was pretty good too - a real 
professional production, with care put in at every level.  However,
it lacked a certain.... one-ness.  Everyone was happy, sure, the
sound system was great and the majority of people were in fact dancing,
but the place was so big and so dark it felt like a big convention,
rather than a *party*.  Everyone was at the same level, except for two
or three small platforms set up near the DJ; thus, it was hard to look
around and get a sense of scope, a feeling of being in touch with people
around you.  This might sound trite, but what would have really helped
would have been a single big laser from behind the DJ booth.  It would
have brightened the place up, which it desparately needed (indeed, the
most perceptible "vibe" I felt was when they turned the lights on after
Josh's last song, and everyone was screaming for encores) and would 
have given people something to focus on, much like it did at last year's
Vision.  They had all the usual Basics/Gathering art posters up, but no
blacklights around them, for some odd reason.

} Very low cigerett smoke level (Although smoking was banned,
} nobody payed attention to no-smoking rule).   Chill out benefit factor about
} a 6 on the 1 to 10 scale (Due to large space).   There was free water and
} even ice.  The DJ's were totally awsome,  with good mix of techno, funk,  
} and jazz.  Apparently the same security company as one of the previous raves,
} as some of them recognized me and said "I saw you at the last event".  I 
} think it was Funkey Techno tribe at the Galleria.

All of the Basics/Gatherings etc.  use Lyon security.  Seriously, we as 
ravers couldn't ask for a better security force, except for none at all.
They are very cool people, they have been doing [parties for a long time,
and they for the most part know that they have no reason to bully down
on people like they might have to at concerts.  They are fully licensed
and have good working relationships with police, so their presence allows
Martin to use sites that otherwise might not not be available.

}   The Santa Rosa police appeared to be rather mellow,  and in a cheery mood.
} At least the ones I encountered by the front door as I was chilling out.

Yeah.  And I saw a couple older-generation folks walking around the place,
dressed in slacks and sweaters, and the vast majority looked like they were
having a good time (some even stayed till the very end, with perma-smiles on
their faces).  

}   The location was convenient for me because I live in Marin and it took only
} 40 minutes to get to Santa Rosa.   I missed the Synergy video stuff,  as they
} weren't present,  but the projector system was rather spacey.

The location was a good place for a large party, in a half-cylinder which
absorbed sound VERY nicely.  But it really did cry out for a laser, or
more visuals.

}   All in all,  I had a wonderful time,  and the smile factor was really up
} there (About an 8 on the 1 to 10 scale).

Agreed. :)

}   Oh!  BTW,  I picked up Basics T-shirt...  It'e really awsome...

Yeah, I got a "Communion" shirt.  Great logo - "Know your limits.  Cross
them."

	Brian



From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 16:10:08 1993
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 16:08:12 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Brian Behlendorf's message of Mon, 13 Sep 1993 15:59:58 -0700 <9309132259.AA02234@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject: VISION report
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

brian b writes:

>All of the Basics/Gatherings etc.  use Lyon security.  Seriously, we as 
>ravers couldn't ask for a better security force, except for none at all.

say WOT!?  at the last basics i was at (penultimate one), the security
woman at the main entrance was a complete fascist bitch!  i know it
said "no re-entry" but at 7:30 AM, who really gives a squat?  these
poor wasted types were trying to find their rides home and she
wouldn't let them in... she even tackled one guy who tried to sneak
by.  i couldn't believe what i was seeing, really.

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Always note the sequencer - this will never let us down.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 16:31:13 1993
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Subject: Re: VISION report
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>say WOT!?  at the last basics i was at (penultimate one), the security
>woman at the main entrance was a complete fascist bitch!  i know it
>said "no re-entry" but at 7:30 AM, who really gives a squat?  these
>poor wasted types were trying to find their rides home and she
>wouldn't let them in... she even tackled one guy who tried to sneak
>by.  i couldn't believe what i was seeing, really.

>Jon Drukman                                         


I absolutely agree with John. At the New Year's Eve Gathering, we 
were shut out after going to the chill out room, and had to stand 
in the cold and rain until we could find a  way to sneak back in. 
My first attempt at sneaking back in I had this person in my face 
asking me what the hell I thought I was doing. And this wasn't even 
out the main entrance. 

vivianm

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 16:48:59 1993
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> } as some of them recognized me and said "I saw you at the last event".  I 
> } think it was Funkey Techno tribe at the Galleria.
> 
> All of the Basics/Gatherings etc.  use Lyon security.  Seriously, we as 
> ravers couldn't ask for a better security force, except for none at all.
> They are very cool people, they have been doing [parties for a long time,
> and they for the most part know that they have no reason to bully down
> on people like they might have to at concerts.  They are fully licensed
> and have good working relationships with police, so their presence allows
> Martin to use sites that otherwise might not not be available.

Yeah, I had a good experience and a bad one with this security.
The bad experience leeds me to believe that the guy hassleing me was a 
PIG in sheeps (Lyons) clothing since most of Lyons security know me by sight
(if not by name) and know that I am on their side.

When I got there some of the security, recognized me right away and said
Hi, I haven't seen you in a long while! Where Ya been!
I told them I had other things to do in my life than just rave :)
I was with two younger friends one of which was only 17 and only
had a school ID (which didn't have her age on it) but they let her
pass based on the fact that I said I was old enough to be her father and
I would look out for her.  After going through the first bunch, it was time
for a search, I usually get the once over but since these guys (and Gals)
know me, they usually don't bother me.  This guy goes through ALL my shit!
He looks through my backpack makes me empty every pocket in my fanny pack,
open vitamin bottles,  I was pissed but knew I was COMPLETELY clean
so I didn't have anything to worry about, I tell him he's wasting
his time because I don't do drugs (at least not tonight :), finnally he 
see my swiss army knife say something like whoa what have we here, he calls overhis superior (who knows me) and a couple of other guys (who also know me)
one of the guards says I know this guy he's OK but this fool was stuck on 
"the rules", I couldn't put it in my car cuz the folks I came with had already
gone inside. Finally one of the security people offerted to hold it for me
till the end, I recognized him from numerous parties before so i said OK.
(Later this person gave me back my penknife inside and apologized for his
collegue.  So as always folks, it the personal relationships that count
the most in this world.  I still think that Lyons are the best security
I've seen and would use them for any large party that I would have,
If I could afford them.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 16:53:44 1993
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From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
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To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: VISION report
In-Reply-To: <9309132308.AA03079@dlsun87.us.oracle.com>
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	<9309132308.AA03079@dlsun87.us.oracle.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Jon Drukman writes:
 > say WOT!?  at the last basics i was at (penultimate one), the security
 > woman at the main entrance was a complete fascist bitch!  i know it
 > said "no re-entry" but at 7:30 AM, who really gives a squat?  these
 > poor wasted types were trying to find their rides home and she
 > wouldn't let them in... she even tackled one guy who tried to sneak
 > by.  i couldn't believe what i was seeing, really.

Did she know it was cool to let people in at this time? 

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 17:01:07 1993
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 16:38:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gioni Pasquinelli <pasque@ucdavis.edu>
Reply-To: Gioni Pasquinelli <pasque@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: CA Forfeiture Law
To: The Ravin' Peoples <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.07.9309131604.A21520-b100000@hamlet.ucdavis.edu>
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	Hi all,
Its been a while...

	This is paraphrased from Saturday the 11th's San Jose Mercury News:

Friday night the California Legislature killed the state's
asset-forfeiture law.  Basically this is how it will work form now on:

			Current Law		New Law

Criminal Conviction	No			Yes, except in cases involving
Required First					seizures of > $25000 in
						cash or if owner flees

Real Estate 		Can be taken w/o a	Owner must be convicted of  
			conviction		using the prop. to sell drugs

Prop. owned by 		Can be taken  if owner 	Can be taken only if
innocent third parties	knew or should have     actual knowledge of
			known of illegal use	illegal use is proved
						beyond a reasonable doubt
			
Standard of proof for	More likely than not	Beyond a reasonable doubt	
state to win a
forfeiture case

Where the money goes	90 % to law enforcement	   75% to law enforcement
			10 % to the state Office   20% to state general fund
			of Criminal Justice Planning   5% to anti-narcotics
							fund

Police use of seized	Police can keep and use  Police can keep and use 
property		anything		 anything but automobiles



That about sums it up...

Hope to see ya soon!


Gioni Pasquinelli					
pasque@hamlet.ucdavis.edu      What doesn't kill you makes you stronger




From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 17:17:31 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 17:17:32 -0700
In-Reply-To: Gioni Pasquinelli <pasque@ucdavis.edu>
       "CA Forfeiture Law" (Sep 13,  4:38pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: Gioni Pasquinelli <pasque@ucdavis.edu>,
        The Ravin' Peoples <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: CA Forfeiture Law
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

YES!  One battle won, maybe another can be won tomorrow at noon....

        Brian

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 17:26:56 1993
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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Message-Id: <9309140024.AA20457@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: VISION report
To: vivianm@src.dec.com
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 17:24:47 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
In-Reply-To: <9309132331.AA23744@alma.pa.dec.com>; from "vivianm@src.dec.com" at Sep 13, 93 4:31 pm
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> 
> 
> I absolutely agree with John. At the New Year's Eve Gathering, we 
> were shut out after going to the chill out room, and had to stand 
> in the cold and rain until we could find a  way to sneak back in. 
> My first attempt at sneaking back in I had this person in my face 
> asking me what the hell I thought I was doing. And this wasn't even 
> out the main entrance. 
> 
> vivianm

Ah yes, I remember that well. At least you didn't get "felt up" by the first
security guard on your way INTO the New Year's Eve Gathering...


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
                                Tamara Palmer
                              trance@netcom.com
                           You are in...THE LIGHT!
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-


-- 

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 19:16:09 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309140032.AA14156@jimi.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Alien HistoryNot Trivial Pursuit
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Lee says:
There's been a recent uproar in the the Psychology community as it is now
being discovered in many cases, childhood memories of trauma and abuse that
shrinks yank out from the subconscious of their patients are often memories
of childhood *fantasies* with little basis in reality.  Just like people
who discover under hypnotism that they were once abducted by UFOs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
They just coincidentaly all describe the same aliens without having ever seen
them in media before.  I'll grant that many abduction experiences are fantasies
but I'm not so  sure aobut *all* of them.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 21:07:23 1993
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From: vile@il.us.swissbank.com (Kurt Vile)
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



Hello -

I recently have been charged with the task of writing an articale for the  
chicago rave magazine REACTOR about the role of the internet within various  
rave communities - and I figured well the best way is to do it is to compile  
and submerse the lists comments into the articale - so fire away kids - what  
role do we all feel we play within our own cumminites?

--Kurt

P.S.  The reason I'm doing this is because I feel that we are all part of some  
form of commuinty and the best way to expose that community

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 21:53:05 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309140453.AA07288@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CA Forfeiture Law
To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 21:53:23 PDT
Cc: pasque@ucdavis.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309140017.AA09277@soda.berkeley.edu>; from "Brian Behlendorf" at Sep 13, 93 5:17 pm
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Brian Behlendorf sez:
> 
> YES!  One battle won, maybe another can be won tomorrow at noon....
> 
>         Brian
> 


Hopefully!  This has been widely publicized, from the Bay Guardian to
Live 105.  There may be a great turn-out.  

-H-


-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey, DoD #0944				   howard@netcom.com
         "24 hr. Banking?  I don't have time for that." - S. Wright
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 23:15:00 1993
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 23:13:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: Re: WOMAD
To: Sameer Parekh <sameer@netcom.com>
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309130541.AA03655@netcom.netcom.com>
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yeah guys, and gals...lets hook up...partyon...susie (:
On Sun, 12 Sep 1993, Sameer Parekh wrote:

> 	I was wondering if any sfravers were heading to WOMAD this
> Sunday.. I'm going.
> 
> -- 
> Sameer
> sameer@netcom.com




From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 13 23:49:07 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
Message-Id: <9309140649.AA09756@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: WOMAD
To: magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Partyon)
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 93 23:49:22 PDT
Cc: sameer@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.05.9309132339.E422-8100000@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>; from "Partyon" at Sep 13, 93 11:13 pm
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Partyon said:

> yeah guys, and gals...lets hook up...partyon...susie (:
	Anyone who knows the place wanna set a location? I have never
been to this site.


-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 01:15:21 1993
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From: bbehlen@techno.Stanford.EDU (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 01:15:18 PDT
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: sfraves, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Subject: alt rave FAQ updated
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I updated the alt.rave FAQ - instead of spending bandwidth on mailing it to
all the lists, you can all grab it via anonymous FTP to techno.stanford.edu,
in the pub/raves directory, or use Gopher to access it as well.  If you don't
have FTP capacity email me here and I'll send you a copy.

        Brian

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 01:32:32 1993
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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 03:32:20 -0500 (EST)
From: 00hamacdonal@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: Pink's Party  - This Thursday
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, nm-list@reef.cis.ufl.edu,
        manchester@irss.njit.edu, socal-raves@ucsd.edu, seraves@american.edu
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    THIS THURSDAY                              THIS THURSDAY

                   David Hollands and Goque Groove
                           Invite you to 

     PPPP  I  N   N  K  K ' SSS     PPPP   A   RRRR  TTTTT Y   Y   
     P  P  I  NN  N  K K    S       P  P  A A  R  R    T    Y Y
     PPPP  I  N N N  KK     SSS     PPPP AAAAA RRR     T     Y
     P     I  N  NN  K K      S     P    A   A R R     T     Y
     P     I  N   N  K  K   SSS     P    A   A R  R    T     Y

On Thursday, yes Thursday, September 16th `ol Pink will have his day

We'll spend our time together delighting in Chromatic Excursions - 

From the Vinyl palette of Pink's pals, to the mental mosaics of our

                          own creation.

  Muncie, Indiana  ---  September 16-17  ---  Ball State University

DJ's (Pink's Pals):
	Doc Martin	-Los Angeles	-Intntl Raw Vibe Authority
	Hyperactive	-Chicago	-Psybersounds Hard Acid House
	David Hollands	-Muncie		-Groove 2 Make U Move
	Mr. Linus	-U.K.		-Rare Groove Monger
	Jonathan Keith	-Indianapolis	-The Rotavator Returns
	Flash Gordon	-Cincinnati	-Back From Germany w/ Frankfort Sound
	SPECIAL GUEST APPEARANCES/PERFORMANCES BY ???

-30K of Surround Sound by "Sound-O-Mighty"
-Computer Generated Visual Projections by "Mighty Pixel"
-Intellabeams and Cyber Lighting from the creators of "Gridlock"/Sight&Sound Inc
-"Free Form" Strobes, Mind Machines, Hallucination Simulators
-Full Smart Bar, Soft Drink Fountain, Orange Juice, Smacck Snacks, Body Painting
-Expanded Art Showcase, Complete Security Provided.

Sponsored and Supported by these Underground Dwellers:
	-Urb Magazine - Los Angeles		-Pervert Clothing
	-J2					-Get Smart: USA
	-ImSmartRU				-Boink?
	-SmilEE					-M&M&M

Ticket Information - $8 Adv/$10 @ Door:
	-Muncie:	Sight & Sound, 900 W. McGalliard, 317.289.8526
	-Indianapolis	Future Shock, 809 Broad Ripple Ave. 317.251.6957
			Digital Waves, SR 135 in Greenwood, 317.889.0191
	-Cincinnati	Avalon, 230 W. McMillan, (Clifton)  513.651.3847
	-Dayton		Stigmata, 519 E. 5th St.   513.222.5800
	-Columbus, OH	World Records, 1980 N. High St.,    614.297.7900

On Sept. 16th, meet at La Bamba Restaraunt, 1609 West University Ave. in

the Ball State University Village, Muncie, Indiana to get a map to the venue.

                    La Bamba is a map point only.
    Muncie is about 40 minutes North of Indianapolis on I-69 (exit 41).
 
	  24 Hr. Information numbers for updates on the Party
		-Groovus Maximus Bassline:	317.281.3000
		-Undergound Pipeline:		317.579.3053
		-SIN Line:			317.895.4546
		-Human Interaction available @  317.288.MARS

             Crazy Props to those who've supported in peace and 
                           Rave 4 the Phuture
                        "Don't Sink, Think Pink"

	THIS THURSDAY       9:30p - 5:00a  (Afterhours to follow)

        There is an additional/separate Event on Friday to be with the 
	Same D.J.'s only smaller, more scene oriented, darker  . . .
	InforMOTION on Friday will be at Thursday's Space and on the 
 		Groovus Maximus Bassline - 317.281.3000

	      ?'s Still?  Call us personally @ 317.288.6277

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 02:01:54 1993
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From: adamb@peg.apc.org
Message-Id: <9309140900.AA21371@igc.apc.org>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: InterRAVE .... at FIERCE!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

                       \.
         FIERCE!        \\    Date/Time (local/geo-relative)
                         \ \    Brisbane      Fri 24 Sep 19:00-05:00 +2200 GMT
  BANDS/PERFORMANCE/RAVE  \  \    San Fran.   Fri 24 Sep 01:00-11:00
                           \   \    New York  Fri 24 Sep 04:00-14:00
    supporting the year     \    \    London  Fri 24 Sep 09:00-19:00
   of indigenous peoples     \     \             [ in US, Thu night/Fri morn ]
                              \      \        /\
 ,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\       \~~~ /   \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,
 |                              \        \/      \                           |
 |                               \                \   global virtual RAVE    |
 |      I n t e r R A V E         \                \  sync'ed with Fierce    |
 |                                 \      /\        \   through IRC  ...     |
 |.                                 \   /    \       \                      .|
 `~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\/~~~~~~~~\      \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'
                                                 \     \
  IRC Channel: InterRAVE    (/join #InterRAVE)     \    \  all proceeds raised
  see time above / info? email: fierce@peg.apc.org   \   \  from FIERCE go to
                                                       \  \  RIC Sarawak Fund
  Featuring: sync'ed live & virtual performances & rave  \ \
  BANDS/dream poppies/greenacres/little crow/cultivart     \\  the people WILL
  annie lee/hooray henrys/fishbox/Bass-X/recipe-4-disaster  `\  be heard ...
  DJs/thomo/peter mogg/shane garvey/mike nolan/jane grieg     .



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 08:26:20 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
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To: rjesse@us.oracle.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  forfeiture
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Fax your state assemblyman and state senator immediately and urge them not to
renew the forfeiture law.  

---------
anybody have numbers handy?

*

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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
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To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  VISION report
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



brian b writes:

>All of the Basics/Gatherings etc.  use Lyon security.  Seriously, we as 
>ravers couldn't ask for a better security force, except for none at all.

say WOT!?  at the last basics i was at (penultimate one), the security
woman at the main entrance was a complete fascist bitch!  i know it
said "no re-entry" but at 7:30 AM, who really gives a squat?  these
poor wasted types were trying to find their rides home and she
wouldn't let them in... she even tackled one guy who tried to sneak
by.  i couldn't believe what i was seeing, really.

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com


--------

I've seen some nasty stuff out of Lyon security too, verging on
brutality, etc.

*

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 08:34:30 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309141523.AA05583@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, adamb@peg.apc.org
Subject: Re: InterRAVE .... at FIERCE!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
>                        \.
>          FIERCE!        \\    Date/Time (local/geo-relative)
>                          \ \    Brisbane      Fri 24 Sep 19:00-05:00 +2200 GMT
>   BANDS/PERFORMANCE/RAVE  \  \    San Fran.   Fri 24 Sep 01:00-11:00
>                            \   \    New York  Fri 24 Sep 04:00-14:00
>     supporting the year     \    \    London  Fri 24 Sep 09:00-19:00
>    of indigenous peoples     \     \             [ in US, Thu night/Fri morn ]
>                               \      \        /\
>  ,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\       \~~~ /   \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,
>  |                              \        \/      \                           |
>  |                               \                \   global virtual RAVE    |
>  |      I n t e r R A V E         \                \  sync'ed with Fierce    |
>  |                                 \      /\        \   through IRC  ...     |
>  |.                                 \   /    \       \                      .|
>  `~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\/~~~~~~~~\      \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'
>                                                  \     \
>   IRC Channel: InterRAVE    (/join #InterRAVE)     \    \  all proceeds raised
>   see time above / info? email: fierce@peg.apc.org   \   \  from FIERCE go to
>                                                        \  \  RIC Sarawak Fund
>   Featuring: sync'ed live & virtual performances & rave  \ \
>   BANDS/dream poppies/greenacres/little crow/cultivart     \\  the people WILL
>   annie lee/hooray henrys/fishbox/Bass-X/recipe-4-disaster  `\  be heard ...
>   DJs/thomo/peter mogg/shane garvey/mike nolan/jane grieg     .
> 
> 
> 
Is anybody here planning ANYTHING if so PLEASE call me I'd like to
help out if possible.  Are we, (sfraves) going to support this in anyway?
Is anybody throwing a support party? Let me know

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Editor/Instigator/Catalyst : Geoff White <geoffw@nexsys.net>
Production Crew		   : Universal Movement Trinity <umt@nexsys.net>

        "They might stop the party, but they can't stop the future"

		--PGP Public key available upon request--
Paranoia - Your state of mind when you finally realize what's really going on.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 08:42:22 1993
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From: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
Message-Id: <9309141544.AA16380@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: WARNING: More Historical "Facts"
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 09:44:10 -0600 (MDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



For those of you who have an insatiable desire to trace our roots *and* those
of you who think history is simply a twisted figment of our own creative 
imaginations.  :)

	Acid house came about in 1988 as a result of Throbbing Gristle
	member Genesis P-Orridge's felicitious misunderstanding of the house
	term, "acid", as in Phuture's 1987 single "Acid Tracks", on
	Chicago-based Trax label.  In Chicago, "acid" 12-inches were
	bare-bones rythym tracks draped by static harmonies, mesmerizing in
	the same way the buzzing of a fluorescent light is mesmerizing.
	They were designed to provide a foundation for virtuosic quotes from
	other records, in real time, by dub deejays; "acid burn" was Chicago
	slang for ripping off someone else's sounds.

	To P-Orridge, a techno-pagan whose private pantheon is peopled with
	dandies and debauchees from Alister Crowley to Brian Jones, "acid"
	conjured visions of paradise regained with the aid of confetti-sized
	squares of blotter paper.  In 1988, P-Orridge released _Jack_the_Tab:
	Acid_Tablets_Volume_One/Original_U.K._Acid_Dance_Freakbeats_
	(Castalia Recordings) and _Tekno_Acid_Beat:_Pure_Acid_ (TOPY).
	These compilations ushered in the British acid sound, a swampy,
	woozy, reconciliation of Electric Ladyland with "Autobahn" and dub
	raggae, enlivened by backwards drum fills, wolf howls, a looped
	phrase sung by Hindu singer Najma, and snatches of '50s juvenile
	delinquent movies.  _Tekno_Acid_Beats_ ends with Margaret Thatcher
	making like a Merry Prankster as she pronounces a schoolroom science
	experiment successful: "Now, that's what I call the real acid test!"

	Mark Dery
	From an article on Techno
	Keyboard, April 1993



-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 08:58:37 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 16:57:31 BST
Message-Id: <7998.9309141557@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Brian Sassone's message of Tue, 14 Sep 1993 09:44:10 -0600 (MDT) <9309141544.AA16380@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING: More Historical "Facts"
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


    "acid burn" was Chicago slang for ripping off someone else's sounds.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has any more direct evidence for
this oft-sited explanation.... as i said before, there's someone in
the UK, who claims to have invented this explanation as deliberate
misinformation ....

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 09:13:15 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309141544.AA05657@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: rjesse@us.oracle.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, hart@ntmtv.com
Subject: Re:  forfeiture
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
> Fax your state assemblyman and state senator immediately and urge them not to
> renew the forfeiture law.  
> 

Yes folks! let's send this stuff back to Nazi Germany where it belongs ! :)

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 10:45:10 1993
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From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309141745.AA01865@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Forfeiture laws federal,not state..
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Arent most of the forfeiture laws federal,not state?
I thought that federal laws superseded state ones...
Might be wrong..but I wouldn't stake my house,car,life on it..

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 10:55:49 1993
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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 09:22:12 -0800
To: bbehlen@techno.Stanford.EDU (Brian Behlendorf),
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu,
        socal-raves@ucsd.edu
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
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Subject: Re: alt rave FAQ updated
Content-Length: 0
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

At  1:15 AM 9/14/93 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote:
>I updated the alt.rave FAQ - instead of spending bandwidth on mailing it to
>all the lists, you can all grab it via anonymous FTP to techno.stanford.edu,
>in the pub/raves directory, or use Gopher to access it as well.  If you don't
>have FTP capacity email me here and I'll send you a copy.
>
>        Brian


I don't have ftp... please? please?

jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 16:52:46 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309141837.AA01675@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: ames!charles-cross.plymouth.ac.uk!robs, funky-music@MIT.EDU,
        manchester@irss.njit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        uk-dance@orbital.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re:  Trying to find SPK album
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	"SPK's _Zamia Lehmanni_"

Can anyone give me more details of this. Is SPK a band or what?

-------

Yes, an industrial act turned poppy disco/[dare I say it?!?!?]techno...



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 16:54:07 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
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To: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com, roy@harlequin.co.uk
Subject: Re: WARNING: More Historical "Facts"
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



    "acid burn" was Chicago slang for ripping off someone else's sounds.

I'd be interested to know if anyone has any more direct evidence for
this oft-sited explanation.... as i said before, there's someone in
the UK, who claims to have invented this explanation as deliberate
misinformation ....


---------------------
 what's the context surrounding that?  Who is it, etc?

Lat,

*

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 17:34:58 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309150030.AA23837@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re:  Trying to find SPK album
To: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 17:30:22 PDT
Cc: ames!charles-cross.plymouth.ac.uk!robs, funky-music@mit.edu,
        manchester@irss.njit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        uk-dance@orbital.demon.co.uk
In-Reply-To: <9309141837.AA01675@nmtvs313.mtvyp>; from "Chris Hart" at Sep 14, 93 11:37 am
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Chris Hart sez:
> 
> 	"SPK's _Zamia Lehmanni_"
> 
> Can anyone give me more details of this. Is SPK a band or what?
> 
> -------
> 
> Yes, an industrial act turned poppy disco/[dare I say it?!?!?]techno...
> 


I don't believe that any of the original members are still in the
band, and only one was in the pop-disco incarnation.

I have one album from when they were industrial, it's pretty damn
disturbing (on a level with 'Persuasion' by Throbbing Gristle).

I also used to have their first nettwerk album, which sucked big time
IMHO.


I have no idea what they are doing now.

-H-


-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey, DoD #0944				   howard@netcom.com
         "24 hr. Banking?  I don't have time for that." - S. Wright
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 17:57:58 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309150016.AA02006@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: howard@netcom.com
Subject: Re:  Trying to find SPK album
Cc: ames!charles-cross.plymouth.ac.uk!robs, funky-music@mit.edu,
        manchester@irss.njit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        uk-dance@orbital.demon.co.uk
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


I have one album from when they were industrial, it's pretty damn
disturbing (on a level with 'Persuasion' by Throbbing Gristle).

-------


Is that the "surgical penis clink" [or was it klink?] record?

that one *was* distrubing...thgey used to flyer venues they played
with info sheets telling how to overload neural circuits w/ sound, etc.
early "cyber bad boys" (as in 'punks'...zzz) in an industrial vein...


PS could  distribution get any wider?!?!

Lat,

*

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 18:14:28 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
Message-Id: <9309150114.AA28885@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Forfeiture laws federal,not state..
To: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 18:14:48 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309141745.AA01865@netcom3.netcom.com>; from "Chris Beaumont" at Sep 14, 93 10:45 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Chris Beaumont said:

> Arent most of the forfeiture laws federal,not state?
> I thought that federal laws superseded state ones...
> Might be wrong..but I wouldn't stake my house,car,life on it..
	Yes, they are, and this change of law isn't a *real* vistory
in that you can worry less about this pigs, but rhetorically, it's a
powerful victory. Its a step in the path to eliminating forfeiture
laws.

-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 18:16:04 1993
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Date: 14 Sep 1993 17:13:46 -0800
From: "Jens Alfke" <jens_alfke@quickmail.apple.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING- More Historica
To: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com, "Chris Hart" <hart@ntmtv.com>,
        roy@harlequin.co.uk
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 RE>>WARNING: More Historical

Chris Hart writes:
>>    "acid burn" was Chicago slang for ripping off someone else's sounds.
>I'd be interested to know if anyone has any more direct evidence for
>this oft-sited explanation.... as i said before, there's someone in
>the UK, who claims to have invented this explanation as deliberate
>misinformation ....

There's an interview with Genesis P-Orridge (of Psychic TV) in Option magazine,
circa '88, where he describes the origin of the acid-house scene in England. He
says PTV was touring the US, got into the house music, bought various
acid-house records and brought them back to England. They misunderstood the
meaning of "acid" (Gen mentions the definition quoted above), assumed it meant
LSD, and things went on from there...

This seems like a pretty unimpeachable source. PTV were (as I understand it) in
the forefront of the English acid-house scene, and Option is a reputable
magazine that printed Gen's quotes more or less word-for-word.

--Jens Alfke



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 14 21:27:06 1993
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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 21:22:22 -0700
From: johnd@uclink.berkeley.edu (John Andrew Dykema)
Message-Id: <9309150422.AA05336@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: STP
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 
I mean Stone Temple Pilots, not Serenity Peace and Tranquility.  Anyway
I don't mean to waste sfraves bandwidth :( since STP is not even house
music but a saw a flyer at AMEBA  for a !warehouse! party where STP will be playing
Oct.2, but the number for info was already disconnected :(.  So
if anyone knows anything about this, please reply to me at uclink
to not waste any further bandwidth.

Many thanks!!
jd

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 01:22:42 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 01:24:22 -0700
From: doom@banneker.Stanford.EDU
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


So, I went up to see the San Francisco supervisiors in
action... didn't see any other sfravers around, but then 
there's a bunch of newer folks I haven't met yet. 

Supervisor Hallinan (who is proposing an ammendment
eliminate the obscure, archaic curfew prohibiting people
under 21 from being in a "cabaret" after 2:30 AM) wasn't
there.  He had some flimsy excuse about having a baby that
day (or maybe it was his wife or something...), so nothing
was settled on this issue.  There's going to be another
hearing in a two weeks, so y'all still have a shot at making
your presence felt.

They went through with the hearing anyway.  The forces in
favor of keeping the restriction in place were (a) the cops,
and (b) some store owners near clubs (notably The Emporium).
The good guys, on the other hand, were (a) the owner of the
Palladium (b) rave promoter heavy weights from "Choice" and
"Organic Productions" (which I gather is The Gathering
posse), (c) lots of random ravers and clubbers and (d) one
or two "keep the kids off the streets" type organizations.

I'd like to summarize the bad guys arguments, but I doubt I
can do them justice since very little of it made sense to
me.  It seems that there is some problem with vandalism in
areas where there are clubs, which the store owners are
convinced would disappear if those pesky 18-21 types weren't
attracted to the area.  There was also some histrionics
about jammed parking, and how terrible it was seeing ravers
on the streets while you're going to work.  

The cops had some weird "statistics" about something like a
total of five violent incidents outside of 18+ places, over
a period of several years.  They made dire predictions of
San Francisco becoming a magnet to gang kids through out the
bay area, claiming that no one else let's 18+ folk dance
after 2 AM.  After Martin spoke, the Captain there made some
nasty remarks about raves being the work of British
expatriates who were chased out of their own country.  He
also talked about how if you let 18 years old in, then the
16 year olds can try and sneak in.  And lots of people
talked about drugs at raves, rarely with much of a clue
(e.g. they kept talking about crack, or the threat of crack,
which always brought giggles from the audience).  The cop
captain claimed that a typical club doesn't pay enough in
taxes to cover a cops salary for a month (implying that they
make something like 45K, which never occured to me before),
and complained that they only have about 4-5 guys to cover
all of SoMa on a given night (this is news to me, since it
seems like they're all over the damn place).

The arguments the Good Guys made are probably obvious to all
of you, except perhaps the point that state law (since 1972)
has already mandated that people over 18 are not minors, and
this particular (ancient) law declares that they are.  The
Palladium owner was particularly impressive, citing his long
and peaceful period of operation, and listing in detail all
the taxes the city picks up off of his establishment
(including, for example, income taxes on the jobs he
provides).  The Gathering posse emphasized that they do
everything legally and above board, and hire lots of private
security, and work very closely with the police in other
counties (e.g. Richmond), and in general talked about peace
and love and good vibes for all.

It would be nice to believe that the Good Guys have got this
one sewn up, but you never know about these things.  The
strength of your arguments isn't always as important as your
political weight, and the supes may decide that it ain't
worth pissing off their cops and the economic might of The
Emporium, et al, just to placate a couple of club owner
types...  especially considering that 18 year olds are such
tremendous wimps about getting involved with politics
anyway.

We'll see in a few weeks... but remember, Doom says: don't
relax on this one yet.

An interesting afternoon, overall.  A little more
engaging than the typical Palo Alto City Council, anyway.
And it wasn't a bad crowd: if I'd felt like socializing, I
could've made a bunch of friends among the ravers &
clubbers, not to mention promoters & club owners...

(Oh, and incidentally it was suggested by several people
that shopping at the Emporium is now definitely out.)


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 03:03:19 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 03:01:43 -0700
Message-Id: <9309151001.AA00804@si.ucsc.edu>
To: roy@harlequin.co.uk, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        uk-dance@orbital.demon.co.uk
From: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Subject: Re: Universe....
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	i got a call today from someone requestin my help
	in providing intelligent lighting for universe this
	saturday


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 07:28:00 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 07:28:19 -0700
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309151428.AA24989@netcom4.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: What?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Universe?
Hmmm



Miles,our friend in the UK (who is friends with the Universe promoters and
part of their organization (or organisation  -to use the Brit spelling  :)
said that it was cancelled because of a financial mixup...
Maybye you could clarify,Miles!
However- even though I dont go out as much as I used to..I do keep
a pretty close eye on the flyer situation..and I havn't seen any publicity
for this event..  If Universe is on Saturday..(or Satyrday to use the
Roman spelling :) :) :) :)  well,THEY BETTER GET TO WORK!!!!!



:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Chris.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 07:37:12 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 07:35:21 -0700
From: noah@Cadence.COM (Noah Ruiz)
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To: johnd@uclink.berkeley.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: STP
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

From SFRaves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU Tue Sep 14 21:39:01 1993
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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 93 21:22:22 -0700
From: johnd@uclink.berkeley.edu (John Andrew Dykema)
Message-Id: <9309150422.AA05336@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: STP
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU
Status: R

 
I mean Stone Temple Pilots, not Serenity Peace and Tranquility.  Anyway
I don't mean to waste sfraves bandwidth :( since STP is not even house
music but a saw a flyer at AMEBA  for a !warehouse! party where STP will be playing
Oct.2, but the number for info was already disconnected :(.  So
if anyone knows anything about this, please reply to me at uclink
to not waste any further bandwidth.

Many thanks!!
jd

-----------------------------------------------


I would like to know to! 
Please!

Thanks 

noah

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 08:12:01 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 16:13:02 BST
Message-Id: <8385.9309151513@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: ccat@netcom.com
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Chris Beaumont's message of Wed, 15 Sep 93 07:28:19 -0700 <9309151428.AA24989@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: What?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  Chris> Miles,our friend in the UK (who is friends with the Universe
  Chris> promoters and part of their organization (or organisation -to
  Chris> use the Brit spelling :) said that it was cancelled because
  Chris> of a financial mixup...  Maybye you could clarify,Miles!

I'm afraid that Universe have called in the receivers.... :(

I'm sure Miles won't mind my copying this to sfraves, since he
forwarded it to uk-dance....

	Cosmic

----

    From: Miles Pearce <Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk>
    Subject: Re: Universe....
    To: roy (Roy Badami)
    Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 10:20:01 +0000 (GMT)
    
    Hiya Roy!
    
    Nice to hear from you, the answer is Yep! 'fraid so. It was only a matter
    of time. After a really successful '92 and 1st half of '93, finances got tough
    enough to take the mothership beyond the point of no return, a position
    which rendered her unrecoverable.
    
    Most of the production crew abandoned ship (it was that or a mutiny). They
    was ow'd, an' the coffers were bare, me hearties. The last shindig was a final
    attempt to reach the breakeven waters of safe harbour. She never made it. 
    Sadly the ship was requisition'd by a fearsome gang of pirates known as
    the Receivers.
    
    Wild rumour has it that there be a trove filled with gold, buried unknown to
    but to he, the crafty Treasurer.
    
    Miles



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 08:20:32 1993
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Message-Id: <9309151520.AA06184@netcom.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: security - CAB laws
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

First a note about securtiy, especially Lyons.  I don't know WHY Martin
keeps hiring those fucks without telling them whats what first.  They, at
times, literally search people (more than patting down - this is ILLEGAL). 
They are also quite rude, and ruin the "vibe" for many going to their first
party.  They are a bit better when they know you OR they know you're wayyy
older than 21.  Other than that they are assholes.  They tried to search my
partner in crime (he's a very tall 6' 5"), he looked at them and said "Look
man, you can pat me down, but I am NOT opening my pockets for inspection!".
 They looked at him, and let him in, no problem.  We promptly found Martin
and told him about the incident.  Martin acted as though it was no big
deal.  Well it was to us.  I will never hire those people to do security
unless they quit acting like "super cops" (methinks they watch too much Cop
TV Drama). ;)

As for the CAB laws-  HUH!?!?!  I don't know why the word was not spread
about this one!  It wouyld have been good to have a show of force (along
with a nice long petition signed by VOTING 18+'s).  I hope that in two
weeks we can get a bit more organized for the next round.  Let's get some
petitions signed, some voters registered, and show City Hall that they have
more than the cops to worry about...how about their jobs as Supes?!?  Also
SOMEONE (I have already started) should write letters to the Emporium
telling them to lay off or face the wrath of a full-blown boycott by 18+'s
(who is one of their major demographics).

When will the next one be (hearing: the date please)?  Will there be a
general meeting before hand to get together some type of strategy?  Has a
stronger economic element been addded to the argument? Etc. etc...?

Peace,
John 

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 08:31:31 1993
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From: nrg@netcom.com (Ethan I. Miller)
Message-Id: <9309151531.AA20294@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 8:31:47 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9309150824.AA26219@banneker.Stanford.EDU>; from "doom@banneker.stanford.edu" at Sep 15, 93 1:24 am
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

One importnat thing to note in our favor that came out of this meeting is
that state law defines a minor as under 18 while in SF the cabaret law
defines a minor as between 18 and 21; these being clearly in conflict
lawyers present at yesterday's meeting feel very postitive about the
possibility of overturning this ridiculous (sp?) law.

see ya later
ethan
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 09:29:37 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 09:29:08 -0700
In-Reply-To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
       "security - CAB laws" (Sep 15,  8:20am)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: security - CAB laws
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Sep 15,  8:20am, you proclaimed:
} First a note about securtiy, especially Lyons.  I don't know WHY Martin
} keeps hiring those fucks without telling them whats what first.  They, at
} times, literally search people (more than patting down - this is ILLEGAL). 
} They are also quite rude, and ruin the "vibe" for many going to their first
} party.  They are a bit better when they know you OR they know you're wayyy
} older than 21.  Other than that they are assholes.  They tried to search my
} partner in crime (he's a very tall 6' 5"), he looked at them and said "Look
} man, you can pat me down, but I am NOT opening my pockets for inspection!".
}  They looked at him, and let him in, no problem.  We promptly found Martin
} and told him about the incident.  Martin acted as though it was no big
} deal.  Well it was to us.  I will never hire those people to do security
} unless they quit acting like "super cops" (methinks they watch too much Cop
} TV Drama). ;)

I knew I'd get in trouble for my comments :)  I based my claim that they were
the best security that parties that large could hope for on watching how they
respond in specific cases... that for the most part, if your friend forgot
their ID and everyone else in the group is 18+, they'll let him/her go in...
that they let you bring water and lots of other stuff in... and even though
they wanted to search your friend, when he said no way they didn't put up a
fight.  I also based the claim on having talked to a number of them, 
including the sargaent, at length, and knowing that they are pretty clued
in into what goes on at raves.  Sure, there are going to be individual cases
to complain about, but I dunno if you can completely avoid those.  Given 
that you *have* to have security at a large party (sad, but a fact of life)
putting up with light pat-downs and occasional miscommunications is fine with
me.  If you don't want to be patted down go to Disneyland :)  (or small 
parties of course).


	Brian

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 09:41:49 1993
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From: Dana Watanabe <dwatanab@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Message-Id: <199309151641.AA26134@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Subject: Cabaret laws and what not
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers list)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 9:41:38 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

just a random bit of info down from socal that may or may not be pertinnent

this actually has to do with a 18- club...
cuz a couple months ago a club down here that was all ages
was shut down by the police over some really stupid charges
(ie serving alcohol to minors when they dont serve alcohol at all)
but anyhow..

because they hire a LOT of security and have it covering outside the door
as well as inside the club, the police were saying that
the crime rate in that area had dropped incredibly
also it dropped because kids were inside the club instead of on the streets
when they got shut down a lot of parents complained to them
saying that their kids had no place to go anymore and 
woudl be just wandering the streets

i dont know if you could actually find out crime rate statistics
for areas around these clubs but it might be an interesting idea

 ,
dana

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 09:44:53 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309151612.AA01397@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, doom@banneker.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
> It would be nice to believe that the Good Guys have got this
> one sewn up, but you never know about these things.  The
> strength of your arguments isn't always as important as your
> political weight, and the supes may decide that it ain't
> worth pissing off their cops and the economic might of The
> Emporium, et al, just to placate a couple of club owner
> types...  especially considering that 18 year olds are such
> tremendous wimps about getting involved with politics
> anyway.
> 
> We'll see in a few weeks... but remember, Doom says: don't
> relax on this one yet.
> 

Are there any articulate ravers (18-20) who are on the list who would be willing
to speak before this crowd.  You might want to remind the council that 18
year olds can be hauled off to the "Adult" jail if they commit a crime, they can
also vote, and if they can get some resolution at this meeting that voting
registration tables will start to appear at all ages raves and they will 
exercise their legal rights, as well as pass the word to every kid + or -
18 not to buy ANYTHING at the Emporium, we have to realize that we as a group
can spread information very fast and effectively.  I'm sure the Emporium
doesn't want a boycott by the "teen crowd" or anybody else for that matter.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 10:08:52 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 10:01:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kendall Griggs <kgriggs@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: Re: WOMAD
To: Sameer Parekh <sameer@netcom.com>
Cc: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>, sameer@netcom.com,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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> Partyon said:
> 
> > yeah guys, and gals...lets hook up...partyon...susie (:
> 	Anyone who knows the place wanna set a location? I have never
> been to this site.

Well, I'm gonna be (500 miles)...

No, seriously I WILL be there.  Should be pretty cool. 
	Only TEN bucks to see JAMES!!!!!  That's the ONLY reason I'm
going; as I really do not care to see the other big commercial bands
there.  However, Stereo MC's should also be cool.  I know I HAVn'T posted
much of anything in the last few months, but I have been reading all the
interesting stuff.  I'm kinda new to this list and it takes a while for me
to get into the frame of mind.  Also, I WILL be there to check out their
"Virtual Village" or whatever; provided that James has finished their set
completely AND I don't have to wait 3-HOURS just to experience the virtual
exhibits.  

Well, if you see someone in a Chapterhouse T-shirt, that might be me!

Cya's there...I agree that we should set up a location...




From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 10:12:53 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: cabaret law fight in Chron
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 10:14:10 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


The cabaret law hearing got a mention on the front page of the "Bay Area"
section of the Chronicle - there's a picture of a few ravers holding up
signs saying "We Can Vote/Why Can't We Dance" and "Dancing is Safe Sex".

The copy reads, "SF Dance Club Curfew Protested - An obscure SF police
ordinance that prohibits people under 21 years old from being in dance
clubs and cabarets after 2am came under attack last night at a committee
meeting of the SF Board of Supervisors.  Rochelle Brown, Michael McCormick,
Ken Boddy, and Leslie Homan listened to the cons of allowing 18- to 21-
year-olds into after-hours dance clubs.  No action was taken, although
an amendment is being proposed that would lower the age to 18."

Would have been nice if they had reported the arguments for and against
to make people aware of the general lameness of the law.

If anyone gets information about the time of the next hearing, I'll help
distribute flyers (and also add it to the calendar).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 o derek chung  o  oracle graphics  o  dhchung@us.oracle.com  o 415.506.6195 o
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 10:25:04 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 13:24:57 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309151724.AA25266@pilot.njin.net>
To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Cc: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: security - CAB laws
In-Reply-To: <9309151629.AA24487@soda.berkeley.edu>
References: <9309151629.AA24487@soda.berkeley.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I've never had a problem with Lyon. They've always been very polite
and friendly. Then again, maybe it's because I've been polite and
friendly.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 10:28:06 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309151728.AA23020@koko.csustan.edu>
To: doom@banneker.stanford.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>especially considering that 18 year olds are such
tremendous wimps about getting involved with politics
anyway.

Were there any 18-21 year olds to support themselves and those on their sides?

Just curious!!!!

Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 10:38:41 1993
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To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: security - CAB laws
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>On Sep 15,  8:20am, you proclaimed:

I am ALWAYS proclaiming something!  I have an application with City Hall in
as the "Town Crier" ;)

>I knew I'd get in trouble for my comments :)  I based my claim that they were
>the best security that parties that large could hope for on watching how they
>respond in specific cases... that for the most part, if your friend forgot
>their ID and everyone else in the group is 18+, they'll let him/her go in...
>that they let you bring water and lots of other stuff in... and even though
>they wanted to search your friend, when he said no way they didn't put up a
>fight.  I also based the claim on having talked to a number of them, 
>including the sargaent, at length, and knowing that they are pretty clued
>in into what goes on at raves.  Sure, there are going to be individual cases
>to complain about, but I dunno if you can completely avoid those.  Given 
>that you *have* to have security at a large party (sad, but a fact of life)
>putting up with light pat-downs and occasional miscommunications is fine with
>me.  If you don't want to be patted down go to Disneyland :)  (or small 
>parties of course).
>
>
>        Brian

You and I are in agreement here Brian.  My post was not against security,
but Lyon's way of handling it.  Yeah, they let many people slide since they
have been clued in.  But at times, and they have been numerous, they take
it upon themselves to be REAL irritants.  You and I have worked with these
people, so it is unlikely that either of us would incur their wrath.  The
point is MANY people have no other choice but to deal with them, when they
are at their worst.  At one of the Basics parties (at the Armory) there was
this security guard lady gurading the back door aftyer 7:30 a.m.  I was
looking for my ride and they were looking for me, inside.  I asked her to
let me back in so that I can get my ride and leave.  Like a robot she said
"No ins, no outs!".  I looked at her and said (hoping to score on the
African-American tip ;) "Sistah, look, my ride is inside.   I want to leave
now.  They are looking for me and I don't want to wait.  So why not let me
inside, get them, and allow me to leave.  They are 20 feet away and I don't
want to scream to get their attention.  So how 'bout it?".  She stared at
me with those thick-ass glasses, looked me up AND down, and said "Ok, but
you BETTER, find them, and you'd BETTER leave!"  I walked in.  I found my
friends and began to look for the last person in our party.  She walks in
to get ME (leaving her guarded post, mind you).  She started to grab my
arm, I jerked away and told here "Look, I am waiting for the last person. 
I am right here near the entrance!  You know I am not going anywhere, and
I'm not wandering around. So please be patient, we'll all be out in a sec!"
 She moved her chair from the door to where I was, staring and watching us.
 Our person came, and we left.  Of course, being pissed, I said to her as I
left "Have a very nice day, and thank you for being a complete jerk!".  I'm
glad I "flipped" that night or I wouldn't have been so cordial ;).  Lyon's
are jerks.  They really do need lessons in how to "do your job, and act
human too".

Another quickie,  I understand the need for security at large events, but
how much is too much.  I know that there have been jerks at the parties of
late.  But you don't need 6-9 guards for raves, generally. 3-4 in strategic
locations is good enough, IMO.  Since Lyon's are such bullies, I would
suggest that 6-9 is overkill.  You only need 1 or 2 of Lyon's "Super Cops",
to man a 10,000 person rave.  They have enough meaness for everyone! ;)

Peace out,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 10:48:21 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309151647.AA00493@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: hart@ntmtv.com, roy@harlequin.co.uk,
        uunet!quickmail.apple.com!jens_alfke@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: WARNING- More Historica
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Seems likely to me from all the acid his-stories that were hearing that the
term was coined in Chicago, etc. AND this person also put out what he thought
was mis-information to avoid the drug connections but what he said was based
on or wholly the truth.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 10:48:29 1993
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To: bpm+@andrew.cmu.edu (BPM List),
        "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>,
        Da Fonk Mailing List <funky-music@athena.mit.edu>,
        nm-list@reef.cis.ufl.edu
Subject: Multimedia music mailing lists?
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 10:48:41 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


I'm soon going to be getting the equipment and network bandwidth for
doing multimedia mail more easily... and i've been thinking... 
Wouldn't it be really cool to send around short samples of audio to
illustrate your messages, your music reviews, or your replies to
sample-ology queries?

Seems like the simplest solution would be a reflector list (e.g. given
list-name@foo.com you'd also have list-name-mm@xxx.com) which would
provide audio annotations for the associated message. The separate
lists would be maintained so as to not drop megabytes of unexpected
samples into the maildrops of people equipped to handle ASCII only
text.

Oh, yeah, and I guess we'd have to agree on audio format, or
standardize on whatever MIME defines.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 11:01:13 1993
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To: doom@banneker.stanford.edu
Subject: Re: Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
From: andy@wco.ftp.com  (Andy Nourse)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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>   The arguments the Good Guys made are probably obvious to all
>   of you, except perhaps the point that state law (since 1972)
>   has already mandated that people over 18 are not minors, and
>   this particular (ancient) law declares that they are.


    This would suggest that if the Supervisors don't overturn this
    law, a court would.
    
    
    


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 11:17:56 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 19:17:55 BST
Message-Id: <11920.9309151817@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: jsl@netcom.com
Cc: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: John S. Lee's message of Wed, 15 Sep 93 10:38:53 -0700 <9309151738.AA00110@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: security - CAB laws
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  John> Another quickie,  I understand the need for security at large events, but
  John> how much is too much.  I know that there have been jerks at the parties of
  John> late.  But you don't need 6-9 guards for raves, generally. 3-4 in strategic
  John> locations is good enough, IMO.  Since Lyon's are such bullies, I would
  John> suggest that 6-9 is overkill.  You only need 1 or 2 of Lyon's "Super Cops",
  John> to man a 10,000 person rave.  They have enough meaness for everyone! ;)

Hmmm... so i guess you wouldn't like UK-style massives, with several
hundred (it always seems) security guards..... :)

(Miles, out of interest, what would be your estimate of the number of
security personel at a typical Universe event...?  it always seems
huge...)

	roy

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 11:44:03 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309151804.AA01522@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: jsl@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: security - CAB laws
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> me.  If you don't want to be patted down go to Disneyland :)  (or small 
> parties of course).
> 
> 
> 	Brian
> 
Well I never had a problem with Lyons security until last VISION when
some over zealous asshole decided to make me empty ALL my pockets.
(He didn't even pat me down afterwards, the moron!)

But still after he confiscated my swiss army knife, one of the guards that
knows me descretely gave it back to me.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 11:45:09 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309151800.AA01517@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, jsl@netcom.com
Subject: Re: security - CAB laws
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> As for the CAB laws-  HUH!?!?!  I don't know why the word was not spread
> about this one!  It wouyld have been good to have a show of force (along
> with a nice long petition signed by VOTING 18+'s).  I hope that in two
> weeks we can get a bit more organized for the next round.  Let's get some
> petitions signed, some voters registered, and show City Hall that they have
> more than the cops to worry about...how about their jobs as Supes?!?  Also
> SOMEONE (I have already started) should write letters to the Emporium
> telling them to lay off or face the wrath of a full-blown boycott by 18+'s
> (who is one of their major demographics).
> 
> When will the next one be (hearing: the date please)?  Will there be a
> general meeting before hand to get together some type of strategy?  Has a
> stronger economic element been addded to the argument? Etc. etc...?
> 
> Peace,
> John 

Yeah, I'm wit it!
BTW I hear that there IS an article on the whole thing in this mornings
Cron/Examiner?  Anybody got a scanner?

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 12:01:41 1993
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From: megatest!kermit!preiter@uu2.psi.com (Pete Reiter)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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I don't know what the answer is to security at large parties, but I do know 
that when I'm hanging out with me friends in the "save haven" of a rave (and
I mean that in more ways than one) and I see some large person in a very
police looking uniform with a nightstick and a very large phallic looking
flashlight, it totally sours my mood.

And I didn't much like them wandering through the bathroom every 5 minutes
either.

						Pete

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 12:24:52 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
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To: doom@banneker.stanford.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
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 how terrible it was seeing ravers
on the streets while you're going to work.
--------

pure jealosy!!!!  [I've felt that way...damn!, why *am* I going to
work?!?!?, etc.]

*

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 12:24:57 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
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To: doom@banneker.stanford.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

especially considering that 18 year olds are such
tremendous wimps about getting involved with politics
anyway.
-------

I'll say, and it isn't just 18 year olds, but to show what a little
 activism can do for you, CalTrain recently tried to remove the
 Mountain View stop from the number 67 northbound express route
 without consulting their clientele.  A large stink was made by
 said clientele and the move was retracted... so get active!

Chris

(This text composed by voice)

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 12:49:57 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309151950.AA19417@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re:  Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
To: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 12:50:11 PDT
Cc: doom@banneker.stanford.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309151847.AA03140@nmtvs313.mtvyp>; from "Chris Hart" at Sep 15, 93 11:47 am
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Chris Hart sez:
> 
>  how terrible it was seeing ravers
> on the streets while you're going to work.
> --------
> 
> pure jealosy!!!!  [I've felt that way...damn!, why *am* I going to
> work?!?!?, etc.]
> 

No kidding.

Pity that they don't consider it terrible to see homeless people
on the streets as they drive to work, though.  Then maybe something
(besides Jordan's "See no evil..." gestapo sweep) would get done about
it.

-H-



-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey, DoD #0944				   howard@netcom.com
         "24 hr. Banking?  I don't have time for that." - S. Wright
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 12:54:04 1993
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Subject: Re: WARNING: More Historical "Facts"
To: hart@ntmtv.com
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 13:54:24 -0600 (MDT)
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>     "acid burn" was Chicago slang for ripping off someone else's sounds.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if anyone has any more direct evidence for
> this oft-sited explanation.... as i said before, there's someone in
> the UK, who claims to have invented this explanation as deliberate
> misinformation ....
>
> ---------------------
>   what's the context surrounding that?  Who is it, etc?


	I know this to be completely untrue because I made up this
	explanation at a press conference held to launch the Freedom to
	Party Campaign at the Conservative Party conference in October 1989.
	I was attempting to desperately play down the drug aspect in a
	forlorn attempt to discourage anti-party legislation ..

	Nicholas Saunders
	from "E for Ecstasy"



-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 12:55:09 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309151907.AA03168@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: jsl@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  security - CAB laws
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



Anyone want to help man a petition signing table on Haight street
 on Saturday (or something like that)?  Could we put it in front of,
 say, amoeba?  (Do you need permits for this?)

Chris

(This text composed by voice)

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 13:23:04 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 13:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: oooo lots of things
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9309151312.M880-a100000@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

first off..i think we should all come out on thursday to ysh and support
our very own wonderful TAMARA who will be spinning the bestest tunes..!!

also i was at the ysh meeting last night..and i proudly announce a big
event w/lots o promoters on oct 23...keep your eyes, ears, and fingers out
for more details..and keep the night clear...

also..I FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT THE CABARET LAW THINGNY...AND HENCE...i
would like to  offer my house on tuesday night at 7 p.m. to discuss ideas
stratgies and such to help in passing this amendment...sooo

my address is 532 ashbury (yes, at haight)and my number is 415 621 7185

*so what if i dont' have any furniture yet in my living room...*
so let me know if you are comming...and hey maybe wee can consider it a
pre togeether kinda thing..??? 


partyon...susie (:

*yeah right and i am not going to buy anything from the emporium for a
long time....whoaaaaa.....it will be a cold day in hell before thjey get
my moola...*



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 13:25:41 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 13:23:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: Re: security - CAB laws
To: Chris Hart <hart@ntmtv.com>
Cc: jsl@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309151907.AA03168@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

well then how about making it for sat afternoon...say noon at my
place...??? 532 ashbury...and they we can walk up to ambeboa after???
partyon...susie (:

On Wed, 15 Sep 1993, Chris Hart wrote:

> 
> 
> Anyone want to help man a petition signing table on Haight street
>  on Saturday (or something like that)?  Could we put it in front of,
>  say, amoeba?  (Do you need permits for this?)
> 
> Chris
> 
> (This text composed by voice)




From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 13:28:45 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 13:13:41 PDT
From: alves@bethe.ucdavis.edu (David Alves)
Message-Id: <9309152013.AA12795@bethe.ucdavis.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: security loves you
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU





>I don't know what the answer is to security at large parties, but I do know
>that when I'm hanging out with me friends in the "save haven" of a rave (and
>I mean that in more ways than one) and I see some large person in a very
>police looking uniform with a nightstick and a very large phallic looking
>flashlight, it totally sours my mood.
>                                                Pete


Cops always make me nervous, on the road or wherever.  I doubt I am the only
person who reacts this way.  It isn't like I freak - but I do become very aware
of their presence and I focus on my own behavior.  This isn't what I want if
I am trying for a more transcendental experience.

A security guard who looks like a cop is just as bad.  

My suggestion is that security be forced to wear an alternative
uniform.  Of course they should be easy to recognize, but who wants
pseudo-military scary people marching around?  Security should contribute
to the experience.

All they need are some kind of cheap, silly, interesting, fantastic, amazing,
beautiful, supercalifragilistic uniforms to take the goddamn edge out of there
very necessary presence.

Dave

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 14:59:19 1993
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From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309152159.AA15847@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: CAB laws
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Re:  the petition..

One thing we might want to do,  is to get some rave organizers to permit
someone to make an announcement to those attending and say "Attention please,
please come by the petition booth and register to vote,  or whatever.."

This would reach everyone...  Only bad thing is that it might be somewhat
distracting to those dancing,   but perhaps between DJs,  at beginning,
or end of the party might also be appropriate.   I'm sure the organizers
would cooperate,  provided they have microphone hookup.

CC

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 15:18:31 1993
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To: magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu
Subject: Emporium
From: andy@wco.ftp.com  (Andy Nourse)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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>   *yeah right and i am not going to buy anything from the emporium for a
>   long time....whoaaaaa.....it will be a cold day in hell before thjey get
>   my moola...*

    I won't buy anything there either, though the only business I ever
    have done with them was with their sandwich shop in the basement.
    The rest of the store almost never has anything I'd want to buy.

    It's a yuppie store which seems mostly to cater to the over-50 set.
    I doubt that anyone under 21 buys anything there.

    I don't really understand why the Emporium would waste its time and
    its corporate clout on this issue.  If it's vandalism, they're more
    likely to have a problem with a bunch of kids who have been kicked
    out of a club at 2 AM (especially if those kids know that the
    Emporium is partially responsible for the restriction) than with
    a bunch of tired kids who are leaving the party after having danced all
    night and now it's morning and the early commuters are all about.
    
    The justification for their position does not hold water.  There
    must be another reason for it.  Are they run by fundies or something?




From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 15:46:56 1993
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To: uunet!nexsys.net!geoffw@uunet.UU.NET (Geoff White)
Cc: jsl@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu,
        gwh@lurnix.COM
Subject: Re: security - CAB laws 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Sep 93 11:04:37 PDT."
             <9309151804.AA01522@nexsys.nexsys.net> 
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 15:02:23 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Security confiscating objects that are arguably weapons
or might be used to bring in drugs or alcohol (water bottles)
is probably within their rights.  If they try and confiscate
anything like a pocketknife, find a cop and get them arrested
for theft.  They're breaking the law.

-george



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 15:47:34 1993
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From: rpcaras@srv.PacBell.COM (Bob Carasik)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  NON-RAVE: seeking Sun trackball...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


the Mousetrak trackball for Sun can be ordered from the vendor
at 800-533-4822.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 16:26:58 1993
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From: dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com (JUMP IN THE FIRE)
Message-Id: <9309152310.AA03996@curly.agames.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: a small post-burning note
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Anyone at Burning Man who left the scene as the storm was starting missed
a nearly transcendental experience.  The phrase "drumming up a storm"
was taken literally.  I had set up next to someone who had two floor toms
(I had one) and was banging out rock-solid tribal rhythms.  I jumped in,
and began to experience one of the longest stretches of uninterrupted
pure rhythm I've ever helped to create.  It was intense.  People were
jumping and twirling as if possessed (no doubt some were) and we only
stopped once to rush in close as the Man fell in a triumphant pile of
whirling sparks.  We drummed, and tranced, and drummed, and danced, and
the desert revealed its power to us as the skies opened, lightning cracked
and roared, and the wind nearly blew us out of the state.

I will always remember that timeless moment: shouts of joy and terror,
wild, half-clothed shapes leaping and cavorting by the red-gold glow of
the Man's ashes, the wind so strong I felt I could give up and let it
blow me away, the feel of enless alkali dust and clean rain on my skin
as my drum and I pounded out the only time that mattered, accepting the
incalculable force of the universe yet still shouting against the Infinite,
knowing that the Infinite would never notice and the value of our defiance
was that we did it anyway.

To some people, this vision would have been of Hell, and I one of a host
of demons leading the masses into wickedness and sin.  Call it what
you want.  I'm there.

(Btw: I was the drummer with one floor tom, no shirt, many earrings,
and black sweats with skeletal dragons on them.  I met a lot of folks
but don't know if any were sfravers.  Big thanks to Kim (?) from YSH for
sharing the most beautiful sunrise I can remember, the Planet 6 people
for Techno In The Face Of Adversity, all the other drummers, Richard for
the ride, and everyone else who did stuff that helped make it happen.
No thanks to the TV crews for trying to turn it into a freakshow.  I was
drumming alone during the day by our tent and got more people videotaping
me than people coming by with drums to jam.)  

Sometimes it takes a Gut Blowout to make me remember what's important.
Simple animal pleasures of warmth, food, fire, the touch of others --
how did everything get so complicated, where you can buy everything 
except what you really want?

// g



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 16:33:41 1993
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Date: 	Wed, 15 Sep 1993 19:28:53 -0400
From: Seth L Sanders <feste@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
Subject: Re: XDZebra Review #36
To: Pete Ashdown <pashdown@slack.sim.es.com>
Cc: SF Raves <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>,
        New Music List <nm-list@reef.cis.ufl.edu>,
        NE Raves <ne-raves@BRONZE.LCS.MIT.EDU>,
        Manchester <manchester@irss.njit.edu>,
        Midwest Raves <mw-raves@engin.umich.edu>,
        So Cal Raves <socal-raves@ucsd.edu>, DC Raves <dcraves@american.edu>,
        SE Raves <seraves@american.edu>, a <thomas@apple.com>
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> 7  160	05:17 Sythadelic: I'm A Secretary
> 2  144	04:50 Oversize Pussy: Orange
> 1  129	Liquid Insects
> 1  115	Mountain Goat

I'm digging it.
seth s


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 16:49:00 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, uunet!bethe.ucdavis.edu!alves@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: security loves you
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

My suggestion is that security be forced to wear an alternative
uniform.  Of course they should be easy to recognize, but who wants
pseudo-military scary people marching around?  Security should contribute
to the experience.

All they need are some kind of cheap, silly, interesting, fantastic, amazing,
beautiful, supercalifragilistic uniforms to take the goddamn edge out of therevery necessary presence.
______________________________________________________________________________

How about clown suits!

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 16:53:35 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 19:53:26 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309152353.AA09976@pilot.njin.net>
To: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: CAB laws
In-Reply-To: <9309152159.AA15847@netcom2.netcom.com>
References: <9309152159.AA15847@netcom2.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Put up a huge sign showing various Stupid Laws people might want to
vote against. Something to the effect of, here's your chance to
change things.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 16:54:58 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Emporium
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 16:54:53 -0700
From: vivianm@src.dec.com
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

------
My 2 cents:

They should be more concerned with who is shoplifting while the store 
is open than who is potentially going to vandalize it when it is 
closed..






vivianm

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 17:05:13 1993
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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Message-Id: <9309160005.AA24535@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Your Sister's House Tomorrow Night
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 17:05:32 PDT
Cc: mcg@netcom.com
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I hope everyone can make it to Your Sister's House tomorrow night. I will be
spinning from 12 to 2 and it would be great to see your smiling faces. The
phone number for Your Sister's House is (415)765-7670.

See you tomorrow!


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
                                Tamara Palmer
                              trance@netcom.com
                       "Coming on like a seventh sense"
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 17:23:52 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 19:15:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Andrew J. Ford" <andy@howdy.wustl.edu>
Subject: free zine!
To: all rave mailing lists -- DCRAVES <dcraves@american.edu>,
        MW-RAVES <mw-raves@engin.umich.edu>,
        NE-RAVES <ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu>,
        SERAVES <seraves@auvm.american.edu>,
        SFRAVES <sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu>,
        SOCAL_RAVES <socal-raves@ucsd.edu>, BPM <bpm@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.07.9309151921.D26608-a100000@howdy>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

YES it's that time again: i'm sending out free small xeroxed
booklets full of dance music reviews jus' cuz i wish i coulda had it htis
good two years ago!

for the latest copy of base ten (pronounced "base 12")
(just out today) send a 
stamp and a nice letter and some candy and some old
records you don't want anymore and ... (jus kiddin)
just send a stamp and an address 
to:

andy
727 Syracuse Ave 
Apt. 1N
University City , MO 63130

pleez note: i have no financial interest in this zine
i jus wanna do my part to help stop the "secret record society"
from holding back great labels and artists!

andy@howdy.wustl.edu
                    *   .     *        \ /      *  
                       /_\  *  /      -( )- *          |~ /~ 
                      /   \strOboy     / \       *     --o--
                             /                         _/ _|



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 20:50:02 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
Message-Id: <9309160350.AA16551@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: security loves you
To: winston@lurnix.com (Mark Guthrie)
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 20:50:20 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, uunet!bethe.ucdavis.edu!alves@uunet.uu.net
In-Reply-To: <9309152307.AA01111@cassy.lurnix.com>; from "Mark Guthrie" at Sep 15, 93 4:06 pm
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Mark Guthrie said:

> All they need are some kind of cheap, silly, interesting, fantastic, amazing,
> beautiful, supercalifragilistic uniforms to take the goddamn edge out of therevery necessary presence.
> ______________________________________________________________________________

> How about clown suits!

	That would be *great*! Clown suits would be ok, but if a large
enough budget existed, I think that some EXCELLENT customized costumes
can be done. (They wouldn't have to be expensive, but they'd be a bit
more than clown suits, 'cause those are mass-produced and not that
good..)

-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 22:12:54 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 21:59:05 PDT
From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309160459.AA02147@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, alves@bethe.ucdavis.edu
Subject: Re: security loves you
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
> My suggestion is that security be forced to wear an alternative
> uniform.  Of course they should be easy to recognize, but who wants
> pseudo-military scary people marching around?  Security should contribute
> to the experience.
> 
> All they need are some kind of cheap, silly, interesting, fantastic, amazing,
> beautiful, supercalifragilistic uniforms to take the goddamn edge out of there
> very necessary presence.

I know what, we can have them wear starfleet uniforms either from the
old star trek or from TNG! That way they would be indentifiable and it would
make it a lot of fun!

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 15 22:13:02 1993
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 93 22:03:59 PDT
From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309160503.AA02161@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, crunch@netcom.com
Subject: Re: CAB laws
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
> Re:  the petition..
> 
> One thing we might want to do,  is to get some rave organizers to permit
> someone to make an announcement to those attending and say "Attention please,
> please come by the petition booth and register to vote,  or whatever.."
> 
> This would reach everyone...  Only bad thing is that it might be somewhat
> distracting to those dancing,   but perhaps between DJs,  at beginning,
> or end of the party might also be appropriate.   I'm sure the organizers
> would cooperate,  provided they have microphone hookup.
> 
> CC
> 
First off this shouldn't be a commandment because some people DONT VOTE as
a statement.  Second the time to offer this oppertunity iss in the Morning
when the party is over and people are filing out.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 00:03:35 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
Message-Id: <9309160702.AA09851@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Ben & Jerry's WOMAD
To: dhchung@us.oracle.com (Derek Chung)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 0:02:34 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9308040021.AA16214@slamdance.us.oracle.com>; from "Derek Chung" at Aug 3, 93 5:21 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	DEREK DID NOT POST THIS TO FURTHUR! Do *NOT* reply to him. I
was just forwarding a post he made to sfraves a while back, and for
some reason it got split and it looked like Derek posted this. He
didn't, I did.
	Sorry 'bout that, Derek.

Derek Chung said:
> 
> 
> here's a non-house thing many of you may be interested in...
> 
> 
> BGP Presents...
> 
> Ben & Jerry's WOMAD! (World Of Music, Arts and Dance)
[message deleted]

-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 00:52:47 1993
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From: Mark Metz / Future Forum <mmetz@soda.berkeley.edu>
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Subject: petition
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Content-Length: 0         
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 05:42:19 1993
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Via: 
From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 13:12:57 BST
Message-Id: <5874.9309161212@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: hart@ntmtv.com
Cc: doom@banneker.stanford.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Chris Hart's message of Wed, 15 Sep 93 11:47:17 PDT <9309151847.AA03140@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
Subject: Re: Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  >>  how terrible it was seeing ravers
  >> on the streets while you're going to work.

I've come to the conclusion that this is one of the most pressing
problems facing most western societies: fear of subcultures or
societies which are different.  People are scared of other people who
live their lives differently, and they seem to believe that society
has the right, even the duty, to hide from them those things that they
are scared of, that they don't understand.  Even to the extent of
destroying other people's culture or locking them up....

Mainstream western culture is a dominator culture....  it feels the
need to westernize and "civilize" all that it touches.  It can't
except that there might be another way.  As long as the very idea of
peaceful coexistence and mutual respect for different cultures is
anathema to the dominant society, we're lost....

Just my 2p worth....

	Cosmic

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 05:42:37 1993
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Via: 
From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 13:19:04 BST
Message-Id: <5991.9309161219@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: howard@netcom.com
Cc: hart@ntmtv.com, doom@banneker.stanford.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Howard Berkey's message of Wed, 15 Sep 93 12:50:11 PDT <9309151950.AA19417@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  Howard> Pity that they don't consider it terrible to see homeless people
  Howard> on the streets as they drive to work, though.  

They probably do.  That is, they consider it terrible to have to *see*
the homeless.  Couldn't the government move them on to some slum where
they won't be seen by the middel classes....? 

Maybe I'm being unduly cynical......

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 05:44:34 1993
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Via: 
From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 13:24:01 BST
Message-Id: <6086.9309161224@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com
Cc: hart@ntmtv.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Brian Sassone's message of Wed, 15 Sep 1993 13:54:24 -0600 (MDT) <9309151954.AA14737@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING: More Historical "Facts"
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>>>>> On Wed, 15 Sep 1993 13:54:24 -0600 (MDT), brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone) said:

  Brian> 	I know this to be completely untrue because I made up this
  Brian> 	explanation at a press conference held to launch the Freedom to
  Brian> 	Party Campaign at the Conservative Party conference in October 1989.
  Brian> 	I was attempting to desperately play down the drug aspect in a
  Brian> 	forlorn attempt to discourage anti-party legislation ..

  Brian> 	Nicholas Saunders
  Brian> 	from "E for Ecstasy"


Thanks for typing in the quote, Brian.  I didn't have my copy of
Sauders' book to hand.  I should point out, however, that this quote
is *not* attributed to Saunders, as your extract implies (I forget who
it actually was).


	roy

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 05:48:09 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 13:48:58 BST
Message-Id: <6535.9309161248@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: gwh@lurnix.com
Cc: geoffw%nexsys.net%uunet@uunet.uu.net, jsl@netcom.com,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu, gwh@lurnix.com
In-Reply-To: gwh@lurnix.com's message of Wed, 15 Sep 93 15:02:23 -0700 <9309152202.AA20805@krupke.lurnix.com>
Subject: Re: security - CAB laws 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



  gwh> Security confiscating objects that are arguably weapons
  gwh> or might be used to bring in drugs or alcohol (water bottles)
  gwh> is probably within their rights.  If they try and confiscate
  gwh> anything like a pocketknife, find a cop and get them arrested
  gwh> for theft.  They're breaking the law.

I doubt it.  When you enter the club, you have to abide by their
rules.  Effectively they're saying "We're not gonna let you in unless
you hand over the knife".  That's up to them.  Now, if you say "Ok,
I'm leaving" and they refuse to give you the knife back, *that* would
be theft....

As to whether you can get your money back after the episode, i dunno....

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 08:04:38 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309161504.AA11040@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: South Bay Lunch Reminder
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 8:04:50 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Just a quick reminder to let everyone know about
today's SFR South Bay Lunch ...

When: Thursday, Sept 16th  
Time: 12.00 noon
Where: Greer Park, Palo Alto

Directions:

* From 101 (South or North) take the Oregon Expressway Exit
   ( Southbound : Drive past University Ave. )
   ( Northbound : Drive past San Antonio Road ) 

* Left at the first signal - W. Bayshore
  (it's a frontage road that takes you south again)

* Follow this road approx. 1/4 mile (pass apartment complexes on right)
  
* You will see the park on your right hand side. Park in the first
  carpark to your right.

* We'll meet on the grassy knoll , behind the round baseball fence.

Bring lunch, toys, yourselves!




From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 08:33:32 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 08:33:41 -0700
Message-Id: <9309161533.AA13806@netcom.netcom.com>
To: megatest!kermit!preiter@uu2.psi.com (Pete Reiter)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Lyon's Security - 2 inane 2 quit
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>I don't know what the answer is to security at large parties, but I do know 
>that when I'm hanging out with me friends in the "save haven" of a rave (and
>I mean that in more ways than one) and I see some large person in a very
>police looking uniform with a nightstick and a very large phallic looking
>flashlight, it totally sours my mood.
>
>And I didn't much like them wandering through the bathroom every 5 minutes
>either.
>
>                                                Pete


Yeah!  What's up with that?  That is one thing I have noticed of late too! 
I guess they are making sure that nobody steals the TP.  I think it may
have more to do with "drug" deals going down in the bathroom, who knows. 
When you have Lyon's "Super Cops" anything can be patrolled, and usually is
;)


I know that Sean and Brian have had little trouble.  I have had one
incident (and I am a "promoter" who has used them before, so they know who
I am!).  But I do pay attention to how others are treated.  And IMO, Lyons
treats the majority of people like crap.  They really oughta lighten up. 
One incident of rude behaviour is one incident too many! 

Late...
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 08:33:45 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 08:33:52 -0700
Message-Id: <9309161533.AA13817@netcom.netcom.com>
To: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: SF City Hall & the homeless
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>  Howard> Pity that they don't consider it terrible to see homeless people
>  Howard> on the streets as they drive to work, though.  
>
>They probably do.  That is, they consider it terrible to have to *see*
>the homeless.  Couldn't the government move them on to some slum where
>they won't be seen by the middel classes....? 
>
>Maybe I'm being unduly cynical......

The fact is this city is quite generous to homeless folx.  Moreso than
other places, which is why we have a disproportionate amount of them here
in the city.  The problem is the limited resources the city has to deal
with the problems.  Handing out free food IMO only makes things worse. 
When they stopped food-not-bombs dude from handing out freebies, many of
the recipients started flocking to Berkeley.  Now Berkeley is complaining
about them coming from SF to the East Bay.  They cannot support them
either.  I don't think there are any quick answers for this problem, except
a better economy, more compassion, and a true effor to help anyone who is
needy.  We still have many vestiges of greed in our society.

Until that time...not in my back yard.

Late,
John  

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 08:33:53 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 08:33:57 -0700
Message-Id: <9309161533.AA13826@netcom.netcom.com>
To: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Subcultura majora
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>  >>  how terrible it was seeing ravers
>  >> on the streets while you're going to work.
>
>I've come to the conclusion that this is one of the most pressing
>problems facing most western societies: fear of subcultures or
>societies which are different.  People are scared of other people who
>live their lives differently, and they seem to believe that society
>has the right, even the duty, to hide from them those things that they
>are scared of, that they don't understand.  Even to the extent of
>destroying other people's culture or locking them up....
>
>Mainstream western culture is a dominator culture....  it feels the
>need to westernize and "civilize" all that it touches.  It can't
>except that there might be another way.  As long as the very idea of
>peaceful coexistence and mutual respect for different cultures is
>anathema to the dominant society, we're lost....
>
>Just my 2p worth....
>
>        Cosmic


Agreed!  I think the other thing is this societies non-acceptance of the
13th Generation.  Who for the most part have said "Fuck 9-5 since I will
not have the standard of living my parents had.  Why work for someone who
will not be as committed to you as an employer." etc. etc.  I saw some
BULLSHIT TV show yesterday (I was home sick BTW) that said essentially ,
and I paraphrase, "People must lower their expectations of this society
(USA), and face the fact that the boom of the 50's that allowed great
prosperity may not happen again for some time."  So in other words, forget
about owning a home,forget about retirement (since those 40 somethings+ 
will drain SSecurity by the time WE are all recipients), and accept the
fact that you may have to take a low paying job, DESPITE your education.

Well, that is exactly why there are soooo many underground opprtunities
available, esp here in SF (you all know what I mean).  They told us to stay
in school, go to college, and prosperity will be ours. Another myth to keep
the masses distracted from the reality of an economic disaster.  Keep 'em
in school so they won't notice.  I dunno, just a thought!

It saddens me to talk to someone who has gone thru Cal with great grades,
and a degree, and see this talented individual have a very difficult time
finding work.  Instead he/she must take a low-ball, low-paying job that
they are overqualified for, with little chance of moving up.  I have, and
will not have this problem, since I have many years of experience in my
field (even without the degree, I am more valuable since I have more
experience than someone straight outta college).  But they don't even want
to give college grads a chance, and THIS sucks!

Just rambling,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 08:33:57 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 08:33:46 -0700
Message-Id: <9309161533.AA13811@netcom.netcom.com>
To: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: security - super cop law breakers
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>  gwh> Security confiscating objects that are arguably weapons
>  gwh> or might be used to bring in drugs or alcohol (water bottles)
>  gwh> is probably within their rights.  If they try and confiscate
>  gwh> anything like a pocketknife, find a cop and get them arrested
>  gwh> for theft.  They're breaking the law.
>
>I doubt it.  When you enter the club, you have to abide by their
>rules.  Effectively they're saying "We're not gonna let you in unless
>you hand over the knife".  That's up to them.  Now, if you say "Ok,
>I'm leaving" and they refuse to give you the knife back, *that* would
>be theft....
>
>As to whether you can get your money back after the episode, i dunno....


I disagree Roy.  The laws here are quite explicit about search and seizure.
 First they asked Geoff to open up his stuff (illegal!  Only the cops can
do this and they must have reasonable cause.  Security cannot, they do not
have the color of authority! Sorry.).  Secondly they confiscated a
pocket-knife.  That's seizure.  Illegal since the search was illegal,
illegal since they did not have probable cause.  That is why REPUTABLE
security, does pat-downs for weapons, and usually dis-allows back-packs,
since they cannot legally search backpacks.

BTW - Lyon's sucks. :)

Peace,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 09:00:18 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Lyon's Security - 2 inane 2 quit
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 09:00:14 -0700
From: vivianm@src.dec.com
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

------


>I don't know what the answer is to security at large parties, but I do know 
>that when I'm hanging out with me friends in the "save haven" of a rave (and
>I mean that in more ways than one) and I see some large person in a very
>police looking uniform with a nightstick and a very large phallic looking
>flashlight, it totally sours my mood.
>
>And I didn't much like them wandering through the bathroom every 5 minutes
>either.
>
>                                                Pete


Well in DV8 they have taken it a step further.  They have installed 
a camera in the men's bathroom.  When I was there a few weeks ago, 
two people were arrested for drug related incidences.




vivianm


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 09:15:26 1993
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From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309161615.AA09642@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Multiple postings-please stop
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Just a word to people posting..  Maybye others dont share my
opinion,maybye they do.. but I must ask that if someone is posting a
message to sfraves,would they please contain it all within one
posting.(rather than splitting it into several messages.) Sometimes I
simply dont have the time to read all my e-mail,and I would like to not
have to scan through multiple postings on the same subject.Thank you.
-Chris. 


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 09:54:06 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 12:52:17 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309161652.AA07183@pilot.njin.net>
To: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
Cc: alves@bethe.ucdavis.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        winston@lurnix.com (Mark Guthrie)
Subject: Re: security loves you
In-Reply-To: <9309160350.AA16551@netcom.netcom.com>
References: <9309152307.AA01111@cassy.lurnix.com>
	<9309160350.AA16551@netcom.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

NO CLOWNS

Clowns are where I draw the line.

:-/

(Fanatic) Sean

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 10:14:41 1993
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From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309161714.AA16346@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Homelessness,cabaret laws and curfew
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

  I have a feeling,that whether NAFTA passes or not,we are heading into a
society where machines using artificial intelligence,technologies like
expert systems,voice recognition,robotics and easy telecommuting are going
to free a lot of people from the necessity of doing work.(If anyone
disagrees with me,I'd like to see their arguments.. this is a very
interesting subject for me.) This can be looked at as a good thing.Why try
to compete with the low wage countries,when technology can do many things
much more efficiently? Ultimately this will be dealt with by our social
system,the alternative is total chaos,class warfare along the lines of
what we've been seeing happening in Los Angeles,Florida,Detroit,here,etc.
but I dont think we can expect that until large sections of the middle
class (as opposed to the underclass) begin to lose their jobs.This time
now represents a transition period.Ultimately I think the government will
adopt the only sane policy.Encourage people to drop out of society if they
want to,to go to school,do art,live in the woods and smoke pot..whatever.. 
With 5% of the worlds population here in the United States using 40% of
the worlds resources reducing consumption is the only way to go. Otherwise
the world is heading towards a living hell, and no amount of walls or guns
will protect the idle rich from it's repercussions.We can do it. America
is the most productive economy in the world. A good first step would be to
legislate a 30 hour work week. Some may think I'm crazy,but sooner or
later people will come around.Better to have 300 million people riding
bikes than to have 50 million driving tanks and the other 250 million
people -make that 9.95 billion (by the year 2000 -7 years away) throwing
bombs and Molotov coctails at them. Its our choice for the future.. We
have to stop defining people by their jobs.In a future where few people
have to work.. with the present paradigm..this will mean that most people
will be considered worthless?  Another thought..  In San Francisco,does
the curfew law mean that if you are under 21 and homeless (hence "out all
night" ) does this mean you are technically breaking the law? Do people
think this will survive a court challenge? 
I have a feeling that in the future,many more people will be in this position.
Look at the recent surveys on literacy. Does anyone think these people are
going to be working in 5 or 10 years?
   There are only so many Mac Donalds 's
(which are already being computerized) and ditches to dig.
-Chris

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 10:40:32 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 10:39:29 -0700
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309161739.AA19144@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: mw@sybase.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Toontown hystery
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


I'm sure Mark Heley would love to be thought of as the founder of
ToonTown,but as someone who was there..I (and many others) can tell you it
was a collective effort.(although Mark has a_very_ bad habit of trying to
take credit for others ideas and hard work,the main reason ToonTown
degenerated from a club with a vision into overly-commercial buffoonery..)
The name was originally thought up by Preston and Dianna, and the first
ToonTown was held in the basement of Big Heart City. (while Mark was still
in England,I think.) He was however,to be credited with some good
promotional work, and a clear vision,with others,initially of what the club
would be like.. Now if he had only had a bit more integrity in his
personal and business dealings.. If anyone has any other questions on this,
feel free to ask Preston or Dianna..they can tell you the story...
In my opinion..it is so so sad,that TT never really acheived its promise
of being a true playground for the mind..  Greed ruins many things.
-Chris.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 10:50:50 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 10:51:11 -0700
From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309161751.AA01506@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: YSH
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


>first off..i think we should all come out on thursday to ysh and support
>our very own wonderful TAMARA who will be spinning the bestest tunes..!!

I'll also be at YSH,  and also want to see what I can contribute in the way of
ideas on how we can persue our plan to get these city government folks
on our side,  and the fat cats that run the emporium.  I have little time
because of my job,  but I can certainly hash out some ideas,  so if anyone
sees me (I'll be wearing my 2600 T-shirt) at YSH,  Pse approach me on this.

>Put up a huge sign showing various Stupid Laws people might want to
>vote against. Something to the effect of, here's your chance to
>change things.

>Sean

Good idea,  perhaps we can have it displayed in a conspicious place at
a large rave and a booth where people can register to vote.    The only
thing that I see is a problem about showing up at city council meetings 
or hearings is that they take place during the day,  and most cannot make
it to show their support.    In my instance,  we are in big push to
release the software in time.  I'm glad that I'm a fast coder,  because
I have brought us almost back on schedule since I got hired.   I really feel
good about my work and the contributions I have made here.  I work hard
and play even harder (As most people have seen).

>I hope everyone can make it to Your Sister's House tomorrow night. I will be
>spinning from 12 to 2 and it would be great to see your smiling faces. The
>phone number for Your Sister's House is (415)765-7670.

>See you tomorrow!

Ok,  Tam,  give me a good workout an the dance floor with a super long
uninterrupted set of house techno...  I'm looking forward to it...  :-)

Geoff White says:

>First off this shouldn't be a commandment because some people DONT VOTE as
>a statement.  Second the time to offer this oppertunity iss in the Morning
>when the party is over and people are filing out.

Yea!!  I also think this is best time,  only problem is that some weenies
cannot last that long,  and leave early.

Rave on..
CC


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 10:56:19 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 10:58:13 -0800
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
X-Sender: jamiel@ralph.sybase.com
Subject: Re: security loves you
Content-Length: 704
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

At  1:13 PM 9/15/93 -0700, David Alves wrote:

>My suggestion is that security be forced to wear an alternative
>uniform.  Of course they should be easy to recognize, but who wants
>pseudo-military scary people marching around?  Security should contribute
>to the experience.

Plus, I think it is a very, very cool idea to have security somewhat
demystified and the uniform is the biggest seperator. I don't think that a
unifrom change would nessessarily remove the authority security needs to
have to be effective, and the respect factor towards them might go up, too.
Now we just have to find a way to get them in baggy pants... :)

jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 11:22:17 1993
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From: Fred Heutte <phred@well.sf.ca.us>
To: jsl@netcom.com, roy@harlequin.co.uk
Subject: Re:  SF City Hall & the homeless
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <93Sep16.112043pdt.14071-4@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Thu, 16 Sep 1993 11:20:29 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The amount of money San Francisco puts into services for the homeless,
and in repressing the homeless, John S. Lee, is far less than the amount
San Francisco puts into tax holidays and special services for the
big downtown office developers.

Now let's talk about *priorities*, dig?

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 12:07:41 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 12:06:58 -0700
In-Reply-To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
       "SF City Hall & the homeless" (Sep 16,  8:33am)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee), Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SF City Hall & the homeless
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

warning - non-rave-related, but in as much as rave culture talks about
compassion and healing, this may be of interest.

On Sep 16,  8:33am, J.S.Lee proclaimed:
} The fact is this city is quite generous to homeless folx.  Moreso than
} other places, which is why we have a disproportionate amount of them here
} in the city.  The problem is the limited resources the city has to deal
} with the problems.  Handing out free food IMO only makes things worse. 
} When they stopped food-not-bombs dude from handing out freebies, many of
} the recipients started flocking to Berkeley.  Now Berkeley is complaining
} about them coming from SF to the East Bay.  They cannot support them
} either.  I don't think there are any quick answers for this problem, except
} a better economy, more compassion, and a true effor to help anyone who is
} needy.  We still have many vestiges of greed in our society.

Two separate issues here: Operation Matrix, Jordan's "answer" to the homeless
problem, is nothing more elaborate than telling homeless people "you can't be
here, so leave".  The police are on record as not being happy with this 
operation, and a few have threatened to quit if it continues, all citing its
inherent sillyness.  Meanwhile, back in front of the Civic Center, an
operation called Food Not Bombs have been giving out free food to the homeless,
and getting arrested for "not having a permit", when in fact they have tried to
get a permit and none in fact exist!  The situation has gotten more heady every
day, with currently about 40 people arrested.  

These two policies are indicative of an "out of sight, out of mind" approach
to solving the homeless problem, which is clearly not the answer.  Arguing that
providing care to the homeless only encourages more people to become homeless
is like saying that building more jails encourages more people to become 
criminals.

For more info about the goings on of FNB, read ba.general, ucb.general, or
oddly enough, alt.wired.  There might be an alt.org.fnb.... also, you can
send mail to andyrose@netcom.com, he's the FNB spokesman on the net.

	Brian

 

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 12:22:30 1993
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Message-Id: <9309161857.AA01103@jumbo.apple.com>
Date: 16 Sep 1993 11:56:21 -0800
From: "Mike Romo" <mike_romo@quickmail.apple.com>
Subject: Fresh Friday
To: "Internet Address" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

                      Subject:                              Time:  11:52 AM
  OFFICE MEMO         Fresh Friday                          Date:  9/16/93
Hey everyone...

Rumor has it...all right, Scotty told me that this Friday is the last Fresh
Fridays at FX and he is gonna spin and so will Rick Preston (who got SLIGHTED
at that vision...it's too bad---when are people gonna take the risk and break
up the Jeno/Garth/Josh conglomerate?  Great DJs, but there is a lot of great
talent out there, and Rick is a pretty incredible dj--check him out at
Grooooove Kitchen)....
it should be a good time...also check out FreeLife (if it going on) at FX on
Monday...Deep Space is tonight..

wow, I am just your South Bay info line today...

be happy, be happy, be happy.

m i k e 



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 12:22:49 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 12:22:29 -0700
In-Reply-To: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
       "Re: Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall" (Sep 16,  1:12pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
Cc: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Sep 16,  1:12pm, you proclaimed:
} I've come to the conclusion that this is one of the most pressing
} problems facing most western societies: fear of subcultures or
} societies which are different.  People are scared of other people who
} live their lives differently, and they seem to believe that society
} has the right, even the duty, to hide from them those things that they
} are scared of, that they don't understand.  Even to the extent of
} destroying other people's culture or locking them up....

I think "fear of the unknown" is a trait that has been with us for a long
time, is not just a Western concept, and is something that's very much a 
part of human nature, so fighting it isn't ever a good solution.  

As this applies to the rave scene - I think we should make ourselves less of
an unknown entity to the "outside".  Not saying we have to bend over backwards
to accept outsiders into our fold, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into 
thinking that everything will be fine if we just keep to ourselves.  If the
scene here involved, say, less than 1000 people total and a few parties a 
month rather than a few parties a day, then it could be argued that we're small
enough not to matter.  But we're too far along now to isolate ourselves, 
imho.  I know I'm going to sound like a heretic on this, but what might help
is if someone on the inside were to produce a really good, really factual,
really REAL documentary of who we are, what we're about, how it all boils down
to music.... and get it shown on PBS or distributed to theatres or otherwise
let people KNOW that we're not the boogeyman.  Other forms of communication 
can work too - we just have to communicate the essence of our existance.  The
gay community has been able to within one generation almost completely reverse
the "outside" world's image of them.  Our challenge isn't going to be anywhere
near as hard... but it'll still take the active commitment of people to stand
up when we get pushed down by the outside.

} 	Cosmic

	Brian

p.s. - so when are you coming out to visit, Roy?

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:14:50 1993
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From: Richard.Schiavi@Eng.Sun.COM (Rich Schiavi)
Message-Id: <9309162013.AA12233@radgumbo.Eng.Sun.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Homelessness,cabaret laws and curfew
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Is this sfraves, or is this alt.usa.constitution,
ba.politics,  alt.activism or any other number of fitting groups.
I've noticed a growing trend toward these issues.

Pehaps the sfraves-owner would post a policy statement whether non-raves
issues should be posted ?? - there are enough other newsgroups directed
at these seemingly non-raves  issues (homelessness, NAFTA, dental floss), 
albiet cabaret laws/curfew are  related. . .

my inbox is over caused out as it is, 

rich

>From SFRaves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU Thu Sep 16 10:19 PDT 1993
>To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
>Subject: Homelessness,cabaret laws and curfew
>
>  I have a feeling,that whether NAFTA passes or not,we are heading into a
>society where machines using artificial intelligence,technologies like
>expert systems,voice recognition,robotics and easy telecommuting are going
>to free a lot of people from the necessity of doing work.(If anyone
>disagrees with me,I'd like to see their arguments.. this is a very
>interesting subject for me.) This can be looked at as a good thing.Why try
>to compete with the low wage countries,when technology can do many things
>much more efficiently? Ultimately this will be dealt with by our social
>system,the alternative is total chaos,class warfare along the lines of
>what we've been seeing happening in Los Angeles,Florida,Detroit,here,etc.
>but I dont think we can expect that until large sections of the middle
>class (as opposed to the underclass) begin to lose their jobs.This time
>now represents a transition period.Ultimately I think the government will
>adopt the only sane policy.Encourage people to drop out of society if they
>want to,to go to school,do art,live in the woods and smoke pot..whatever.. 
>With 5% of the worlds population here in the United States using 40% of
>the worlds resources reducing consumption is the only way to go. Otherwise
>the world is heading towards a living hell, and no amount of walls or guns
>will protect the idle rich from it's repercussions.We can do it. America
>is the most productive economy in the world. A good first step would be to
>legislate a 30 hour work week. Some may think I'm crazy,but sooner or
>later people will come around.Better to have 300 million people riding
>bikes than to have 50 million driving tanks and the other 250 million
>people -make that 9.95 billion (by the year 2000 -7 years away) throwing
>bombs and Molotov coctails at them. Its our choice for the future.. We
>have to stop defining people by their jobs.In a future where few people
>have to work.. with the present paradigm..this will mean that most people
>will be considered worthless?  Another thought..  In San Francisco,does
>the curfew law mean that if you are under 21 and homeless (hence "out all
>night" ) does this mean you are technically breaking the law? Do people
>think this will survive a court challenge? 
>I have a feeling that in the future,many more people will be in this position.
>Look at the recent surveys on literacy. Does anyone think these people are
>going to be working in 5 or 10 years?
>   There are only so many Mac Donalds 's
>(which are already being computerized) and ditches to dig.
>-Chris
>

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:19:27 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 13:19:21 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: SF Sherriff comes out for Legalization, and 2 1200's for $600.
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Two posts in one:

First, while perusing the Classified Flea Market, I found a pair of 
Technics SL1200's for $600.... call 510-687-5038 if you're interested.

Second, here's the text to the article in this week's SF Weekly:

[SFWeekly: September 15th, 1993]

HENNESSEY BRAVELY URGES REPEAL OF TOUGH DRUG LAWS

by Vince Bielski

In the dusty American tradition of literary lawmen, San Francisco's
own Michael Hennessey has penned a cover story for "American Jails"
that will rattle more than a few sheriffs' cages.  "I'm also on the
cover in the nude with a bulldog on my butt and a black panther on my
shoulder," joked the proud sheriff.

But Hennessey's gun-slinging artcile in the July/August issue, titled
"Our National Jail Scandal," is no laughing matter.  The story puts
him on record as one of the first active law enforcement honchos to
declare the war on drugs a sham and to call for the decriminalization
of drug use laws. "This was an unwinnable war from day one, a war that
has resulted in billions of wasted tax dollars, and a war that is,
ultimately, almost solely waged against minority Americans," he said.

The mag's managing editor, Ken Kerle, expects Hennessey's piece will
stir up trouble among readers of the country's preeminent publication
on jail matters.  In his editorial, he praised Hennessey "for his
candor and courage tin putting his views into print."

Is the sheriff worried? "I haven't gotten any heat yet, it just came
out.  But I will take heat.  The editor said he can't wait for the
letters to the editor."

No doubt.  Says the badge-wielding scribe of his fellow sherifs:
"Like crackheads and heroin users who infest the inner city, we are
hopelessly addicted to ever-increasing incarceration."

The United States has the "dubious distinction" of having a higher
ratio of its population behind bars than any other country in the
world, including tumultuous South Africa, the article says.  These
locked-up Americans are "overwhelmingly minority, predominantly young,
and invariably involved with drugs.  African American and Hispanic men
under the age of thirty who use drug sales as a means of economic
sustenance and advancement."

Not only has the "industry of massive domestic incarceration" failed
miserably to curb crime, the sheriff asserts, it creates career
criminals.  "Time in jail only further alienates inmates from
society's mainstream, separating them from the basic societal
structures that truly keep people from becoming career criminals:
family, jobs, positive reinforcing peer groups."

The roots of thie "national tragedy" are political.  Cowardly
politicians pander to a frightened public by passing tougher crime
bills to help get themselves elected. (Hennessey, who has been elected
sheriff four times, shows there are other paths to power.)  Like
Prohibition in the 1920's, which nurtured organuzed crime,
prostitution, gambling, and political corruption, the tought drug laws
of today have created "a society strangled by the illegal drug
industry" in which "thousands of lives are lost in murderous turf wars
and entire inner-city communities are held hostage by escalating drug
violence."

Hennessey dismisses the argument that decriminalization will lead to
increased drug use.  "History has shown that prohibition actually
draws people to experiment with drugs, offers them an opportunity to
defy authority, and brings economic opportunity in the creation of a
black market."

Instead of resorting to punishment, the sheriff urges more funding for
drug treatment programs, which would lead to a 25 percent reduction in
population of San Francisco's overcrowded jails, he says.

In addition to being a published writer, the sheriff fancies himself a
Sex Pistols aficionado.  During a photo shoot, he pulled from his desk
drawer a picture of himself dressed as a punk rocker, wearing an
earring, orange spiked hair and a snarl on his face.  (The politician
in him has vowed never to allow the picture to be published.)

While Hennessey's office is filled with the mystery novels, law
enforcement tomes and books on rock and roll, he insistshe doesn't
plan on becoming a journalist.  "It doesn't pay enough," he said.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:34:34 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 16:32:55 EDT
From: abbe@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (John C. Abbe aka Rademir)
Message-Id: <9309162032.AA01839@bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Homeless, Energy, Building
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Okay. It's long. But I *do* get back to raves. Really. Trust me.
 
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,
 
jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee) wrote:
>>  Howard> Pity that they don't consider it terrible to see homeless people
>>  Howard> on the streets as they drive to work, though.
>>
>>They probably do.  That is, they consider it terrible to have to *see*
>>the homeless.  Couldn't the government move them on to some slum where
>>they won't be seen by the middel classes....?
>>
>>Maybe I'm being unduly cynical......
>
>The fact is this city is quite generous to homeless folx.  Moreso than
>other places, which is why we have a disproportionate amount of them here
>in the city.  The problem is the limited resources the city has to deal
>with the problems.  Handing out free food IMO only makes things worse.
>When they stopped food-not-bombs dude from handing out freebies, many of
>the recipients started flocking to Berkeley.  Now Berkeley is complaining
>about them coming from SF to the East Bay.  They cannot support them
>either.  I don't think there are any quick answers for this problem, except
>a better economy, more compassion, and a true effor to help anyone who is
>needy.  We still have many vestiges of greed in our society.
>
>Until that time...not in my back yard.
>
>Late,
>John
 
What a great turn of phrase! We could make it into an acronym! NIMBY!
 
Seriously, not just a flame. It is *exactly* this attitude that keeps a whole 
lot of people from addressing the problem. And, you're right, a lot of people 
jump on the handing out food/philanthropy/charity bandwagon as another way of 
avoiding the real issues (oh, those poor homeless!).
 
People deserve more respect and need to regain the ability to handle more 
responsibility than a handout often gives. On the other hand, you've gotta 
eat to stay alive, and most people who are homeless need some really basic 
needs met, from food and mental/physical health care to clean clothes and an 
address before they can even think of making it on their own. And to some 
extent this may all little more than a rearguard action as we try to mature 
as a species and a society to the point where we stop doing this to our 
selves. I mean, it doesn't make sense to wait until someone is homeless 
before you think about helping them. And that's why Food Not Bombs is 
important, 'cause they try to point that out to people. The fact is, people 
are getting bumped down the socio-economic ladder every day. Chris talked 
about people being freed from the 'necessity' of doing work in the near 
future. It's already been that way for a long time. How many people in this 
society work on life's basics? Very few. The rest is luxury time, if you look 
at it as a society, which we have 'chosen' (pretty unconsciously) to split up 
so that some (mostly the unemployed) have lots of luxury time, but then we 
also have chosen as a society not to support them. Many others (the 
majority), we support minimally-to-quite-well to provide services for each 
other and the select few who do pretty much as they like and still get 
supported (the rich/powerful-enough-to-not-have-to-work). Looking at it from 
this societal perspective, it's pretty screwy. And the answer is not to have 
the rich occasionally hand some stuff down from on high, through taxes or 
donation or whatever (and feeling generous about it!).
 
The whole system's gotta go.
 
And it's going. We can feel it. But rather than putting energy into helping 
tear it down, I see a need to build a new system. *Before* the old one's 
gone. One that has a conscious societal perspective, allowing us to choose to 
support everyone, and to stop exploiting each other (and our future, 
environment/resources-wise), and to still create more than enough for 
everyone to lead very fulfilled lives. And dammit, I *still* haven't been to 
a rave, but I can feel that energy here!
 
This is *complex* stuff. There's a lot for us to learn, and we're trying to 
do it while the old system is just starting into it's death throes, so we're 
having to do a lot of working around it (events get busted, people charge 
lotsa $$ for some events, certain chemical preferences are illegal, these are 
all visible effects of this dynamic). What we're trying to do is hard, hard, 
hard. Expect it to be challenging. There is and will be falling out within 
the community, and among the many communities that have this energy. There 
will of course be many conflicts with the old system. It's a self-preserving 
system, how else would it have been at all stable? It's always tumultuous to 
be *growing up*, which is what we are doing, as a society, hopefully as a 
species. We're going through one of those difficult ages (terrible twos, 
adolescence...), it's a time to learn, learn, learn. And to try to sit back 
once in a while when we can and reflect on it all a little, hold it in a big 
enough perspective so that we don't get down on individual people too hard 
(like, I started this post mad at John. Sorry, d00d :-). Slack. Perspective. 
Conscious (and keep it fun!).
 
--Johnnie steps off the soapbox and plunges to the ground, barely keeping on 
his feet. Hmm...hadn't realized it had grown that high. <sheepish grin>
Just my, uh, 2 dollars?

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:36:00 1993
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From: geoffw@internex.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309162031.AA06645@internex.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, Richard.Schiavi@eng.sun.com
Subject: Re: Homelessness,cabaret laws and curfew
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Content-Length: 1095
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
> Is this sfraves, or is this alt.usa.constitution,
> ba.politics,  alt.activism or any other number of fitting groups.
> I've noticed a growing trend toward these issues.
> 
> Pehaps the sfraves-owner would post a policy statement whether non-raves
> issues should be posted ?? - there are enough other newsgroups directed
> at these seemingly non-raves  issues (homelessness, NAFTA, dental floss), 
> albiet cabaret laws/curfew are  related. . .
> 
> my inbox is over caused out as it is, 
> 
> rich

Then maybe you should think of unsubscribing.

If you were hanging around the Scene, you would realize that things like
homelessness is important because several ravers that I know have wound up
homeless.  It's important to talk about the Constitution because last time
I checked we had the freedom of peaceable assembly and could not be
subject to unnecessary search and seizure, all very important if you
are going out raving. Perhaps you were mistaken and thought raves were just
one big party where you could get blasted and pick up on cute raver chicks.

Maybe you should get a clue.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:36:24 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 13:34:25 PDT
From: jdwaidho@hydra.dazixca.ingr.com (Doug Waidhofer)
Message-Id: <9309162034.AA14707@hydra.dazixca.ingr.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Burning Man makes the cover of the Metro
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hey all,

I just picked up the Sept. 16-22 issue of the 
Metro (South Bay Weekly paper).  The cover touts
"neon fires and nakedness, Pagans & Patriots,
high tech goes primal"

The article is Gigi Bisson's account of what
happened at Burning Man.  It is worth reading.

-jdw

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:40:40 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 13:37:45 PDT
Cc: sfraves-calendar@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFR Calendar)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Busy weekend, especially for some SFR DJs, check out Tamara at YSH
tonight and again (along with several other SFR DJs) at Liquid Air (a
Fluid Groove Production) on Saturday.

Also there's a Wicked this weekend (the first stand-alone Wicked in a
while), and a few smaller events which look interesting.

About two weeks from now there will be another hearing about the
law in SF which prevents 18-20 year-olds from going to after-hours
clubs.  Hopefully I'll have more details by next week, but in the
meantime, you can contact Supervisor Terence Hallinan's office
at 415.554.5184 and voice your opinion.  (Hallinan favors repealing
the law)


*****************************************************************************
UPCOMING RAVES IN THE SF/BAY AREA                     	    Updated: 09.16.93
*****************************************************************************

Thursday, September 16th - Surface magazine release party
	[not really a rave, but DJ lineup looks housey]
	Jan Cooley, Neon Leon, Tony Largo, Aaron O, & Nadia on two floors
	DV8 - 540 Howard. Doors at 10pm.  $7 w/invite.

Friday, September 17th - Zoe  
	Brad  Shobhan  Anton  James - (415)561-1448

Friday, September 17th - Eden
	415-267-7694	408-450-2702

Friday, September 17th - Ooga Booga Ball
	Jeno  Garth  Simon  Chris Burkes  Paul Gordon
	916-484-4006

Saturday, September 18th -- "join us for the REVIVAL of the psychedelic groove"
        "one world / one groove" 	415-588-2171 

Saturday, September 18th - The Fluid Groove Posse presents Liquid Air
	Tamara, Jon.D, Cris, Ethan & Timothy
	415-487-8497

Saturday, September 18th - TAZ/Komotion benefit for the temp workers union
	japanese dancers, multi media stuff, live stuff, djs
	info - (415)SOLS-666

Saturday, September 18th - Wicked
	Jeno  Garth  Markie  Thomas
	415.512.5713

Thursday, September 23rd - Delusions of Grandeur opens (see weeklies)

Saturday, September 25th - Awaken
	Jeno  Spun  Tony  Josh  Doran  Joe Harp
	near Stockton - buses from SF will be available
	415-442-7922  	209-569-7867	916-552-1599

Saturday, September 25th - HOME
	Markie  Jon Williams  Simon  DRC  Galen  Jordan
	Audio by Sound Vision/Visuals by Synergy
	415.647.4788

Saturday, October 2nd - Origin
	Doran  Spun  Josh  Tony  Jas
	415.905.8831

Sunday, October 3rd - SFR presents: Connection Earth
	Marx Meadow, Golden Gate Park!  Noon-5pm
	DJs Lee  Markie  Jon D.; audio by SoundVision
	info: 415.487.8497	

Saturday, October 9th - Energy
	Doc Martin  Ghost  Mojo Hand  Willy Wonka  Josh  Alfie
	Tattooing/body piercing/fruit & salad bars/smart bars/alcohol bars
	3-d visuals/3-d glasses
	415-995-4787	916-557-5845	18+, $10 before 11

Friday, October 15th or Saturday, October 16th - Liquid Air 
	(presented by Fluid Groove!  Exact date and other details to follow)
	DJs Tamara, Laura, Jon D.
	info: 415.487.8497	

Saturday, October 16th - Passage
	Noel  Ghost  Dave Alga  Dolphi  Rob  Ted
	510-505-8841

Saturday, October 23rd - The Cat in the Hat - 415.995.4646

Saturday, October 23rd - "a big event w/lots o promoters" [thanks, susie :) ]

Sunday, October 31st - Casper (more details to follow)

Saturday, November 20th - Come Together

Penelope's Web 2 - at the same location as the first, more details to follow...
	415-765-7671

Elmo will also be also presenting another party in September, more details
	to follow.

Tribal Funk - 415.756.1531 - details to follow

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        People who want to send money, cards and other goodwill 
	thoughts to Malachy can make checks payable to the:
                M. O'Brien Healing Fund
                1388 Haight st #117
                San Francisco CA. 94112
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be-AT INFO LINE: 415-626-4087. 
The Elmo line - (415) 884-ABCD
Ameba - 415-750-9368
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some weeklies - whether or not they count as real "raves" is 
debatable, but they were advertised by flyers and the music could be
good. If anyone can provide reviews of them, i.e., their appropriateness 
in being on the list, let me know.  Also let me know when any of them end...

Thursdays

SFR South Bay Lunch - noon at Greer Park in Palo Alto.  
	e-mail larryc@netcom.com for directions.
YOUR SISTERS' HOUSE - 9pm discussion - 10pm-4am funkygrooves - 415-765-7670
	[9/16 - Tamara & others]
Deep Space - 200 N. 1st Street, SJ - 21+ - Rick Preston, others
	[9/16 - Thomas, Tara, and Rick Preston]
Universal Groove - Carlos, Ghost, Steve Mitchell, Dave Alga, Franko
	$5.  415.281.5913  510.869.2727
Overnight Xpress - 1 Bolivar Drive, Berkeley - 415.266.8232  408.236.2032
Ajax - Acid Jazz w/Harry Who (San Jose)
Eclipse - 2520 Camino Diablo, Walnut Creek. open till 4, 18+
Delusions of Grandeur - every other Thursday - Jon Williams, Robbie & Scott
	Hardkiss.  Ambience by SpaceTime Continuum.  Visuals by Synergy.
	10pm - 6am, 1015 Folsom. (begins 9/23)

Fridays

Mission Rock - 817 China Basin - $5 - 21+
Zanzibar - DJ Josh. 415-695-7887.  21+.  842 Valencia @ 19th St.
Life - Sound Factory - 525 Harrison @ 1st, SF    415.543.1300   21+
Corduroy City - $5 - 11-6am - 415.974.9715
	[9/17 - Daisy Glow, Buck, Bam Bam, Brian Hughes]
Nectar - Ernie/Josh/Hardkiss/Carlos/Dutch/Ghost/Buck/Markem X - 415.905.8801
	540 Howard (DV8)
Dig! - Cleo's Cafe @ Haight&Pierce. Acid Jazz & deep house w/Charlotte
	and Rasoul.  5-10pm, no cover, all ages.
Fresh Friday - F/X, San Jose - DJs Scotty, Rick Preston

Saturdays 

Housing Project - 6am-2pm - DJ Dani & guests - End Up 401 6th @ Harrison, 21+ 
Deep House Sessions at the Groove Station  1141 Polk St  6-9 pm  FREE
Cornbread - acid jazz, house - noon - blondies, 540 valencia@16th 415.487.6246
Funky Underground - Dimensions, S 1st St, San Jose 408.920.1762
Rhythm - Neon Leon, Jan Cooley, Markie - 177 Townsend - 21+ - 415-281-3344
The Fridge - on hold - $7 - 21+ - 415-487-6305
Aurgasm - on hold - collective T.A.Z. - $5 before 12 - 415.974.9363

Sundays

Boogie Buffet - 1015 Folsom - 6am-2pm - 415-979-8845
EndUp from 6am - 6th & Harrison
Cleo's Cafe - Haight & Pierce - informal YSH gathering - 2pm-8pm - free!
Once is Never Enough - $5, "6:00 am til we hit the beach", 415-905-6443
Bulletproof boat party - 5-9pm pier 40 (last Sunday of each month) 
        Tickets at Bulletproof 629 Haight (255.7168)
Spundae - various guest DJs - 55 Natoma  
the ambient club - spike's, 8th & Minna, 10 till 2 am
Tranceformation - 201 9th @ Howard - $3, 21+ - 415-267-6189
The Sky High Club - Djs Louis Walden & Mike Manahan
	Sir Francis Drake Hotel, 450 Powell. 9pm-3am  415 392-7755 ext.2212
Punch Drunk - Cal's, 2001 Union St @ Buchanan - 6pm - 415-776-7036
Sunday Joy - 8th & Kirkham (in the Sunset) - 2pm-7pm - $2
Deep Forest - Carlos, Dutch, & Guests - 7am-? - 18+ - $3 - 415.679.8070
Flapjacks - by Curious George - 18+, 6am-3pm, $4 incl. pancakes. 510-505-8841

Mondays 
Pepper.  Deep House with Buck, Josh, Chris Lum. 668 Haight, 10-2AM, $3, 21+. 
Jazz Mushroom - acid jazz w/Mark Farina, Thomas, Ammon, Is, Alex, Kevin
	$3, 9pm-3am.  Club Oasis, 278 11th St, 21+. 415-905-8811
FreeLife - every other Monday at F/X in San Jose.
Depth Chamber - temporarily on hold - 9-2am, 21+, (415)241-1560

Tuesdays 

Together - Basement of Big Heart City (339 Jessie) 415-979-8825
Progress - 150 S.2nd St in San Jose (Club Oz, lower level entrance).
	21+, 408-236-2284.  DJs Julius, Rick Preston, Leonard & guests

Wednesdays 

Housing Project - DJs Jeno & Josh. 9-330am @ the EndUp, 401 6th @ harrison 21+
Recycle - 16th & Harrison - 18+ - 415-599-3750.
Mystery School - 525 Harrison @ 1st (Sound Factory) - 21+, 11pm - sunrise
	415-337-4905

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONNECTION 2 TAPES >> 4 cassettes >> 6 hours >> complete live house
DJs: Moonpup, Scott Hardkiss, Jon Drukman, Lee and Blurrr 
contact Bob Ramstad (boccibob%groovy@us.oracle.com) 
$15 + $5 shipping, $5 of which goes to the Malachy O'Brien healing fund 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

RADIO SHOWS: 
Saturday mornings 1-3:30am - Mescalina, KALX 90.7 (Berkeley)
Sunday mornings 1-3:30am - Minor Minor KALX 90.7 (Berkeley)
Mondays 10pm - Belladonna, KFJC 89.7, Foothill College (Los Altos Hills)
Tuesdays noon-3pm - "London Jamaica" w/Unknown KZSU 90.1 (Stanford)
	[9/21 - Carlos]
Tuesdays 7:30-10:00pm - Pete Gracious, KSCU 103.3 (Santa Clara)
weeknights 9pm - the Modern Mix w/Steve Masters KITS 105.3 (SF)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone has info on any other events, submit them! I can't possibly hope
to get all the info every week. 

Brian Behlendorf, bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu, 510-649-0351 and
Derek Chung, dhchung@us.oracle.com, 415-506-6195


To subscribe/unsubscribe to the calendar mailing list, send e-mail to
majordomo@sfraves.stanford.edu with either the line

subscribe sfraves-calendar   or
unsubscribe sfraves-calendar   

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:41:13 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 13:41:21 -0700
Message-Id: <9309162041.AA13958@netcom.netcom.com>
To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: the homeless & healing
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>warning - non-rave-related, but in as much as rave culture talks about
>compassion and healing, this may be of interest.
>
>These two policies are indicative of an "out of sight, out of mind" approach
>to solving the homeless problem, which is clearly not the answer.  Arguing that
>providing care to the homeless only encourages more people to become homeless
>is like saying that building more jails encourages more people to become 
>criminals.


This is not what I said.  It does not encourage people to become homeless,
but it does encourage people to come here for such free services.  There is
only so much a city should/could provide for it's citizens (taxpayers &
non).  When they come here (I hate the term "they" for the Homeless, but it
is less to type) they put a strain on the already overburdened services we
provide.  Many missions are full, the local programs are overburdened and
undersupported.  And the general climate of SF, esp of late, does say "Hey,
not in my back yard!".  I know I don't want anyone homeless on MY doorstep.
 The FACT that the Berkeley city council complained about people coming
from SF to Berkeley to get some of their goodies, indicates that there is
SOME migration that occurs.  Primarily to places that have services.  That
is all I was saying.

As for the Food-Not-Bombs, I don't necessarily agree with what he is doing
(esp considering his history).  But but I think he should be allowed to do
it.  The permit thing is a complete farce.  Just more of the same for SF. 
But it is suprising that of all places the city council of Berkley would
complain about having to take on more than they can chew, when SF has been
doing that for some time.  I guess when it's time for the left to do it's
share, all it can do is complain.  Let's see how Berkely effectively deals
with this crisis.  I predict, like other citites, they will do the same
thing SF has been accused of.  They will make "laws" in such a way as to
discourage the homless from being there. And when that fails, they will
have their own "Matrix" to deal with.  News at 11!

>
>For more info about the goings on of FNB, read ba.general, ucb.general, or
>oddly enough, alt.wired.  There might be an alt.org.fnb.... also, you can
>send mail to andyrose@netcom.com, he's the FNB spokesman on the net.
>
>        Brian
>
>

When o when will these "POP" organizations stop the BS.  For instance, why
not "Jobs Not Bombs".  How about "Defense Conversion Not Bombs" or even
"Re-open safe, clean, mental facilities not bombs".  These are the REAL
issues here.  And until they are adressed we will always have this
sickening homeless situation.  Typical of Western thought, attack the
symptom, but leave the problem alone.  Food is all fine and well, but when
you don't adress health, education, and welfare, all the food in the world
solves no problem at all.

Just a thought.  A more holistic approach would be the best!
John   

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:41:19 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 13:41:29 -0700
Message-Id: <9309162041.AA13998@netcom.netcom.com>
To: "Mike Romo" <mike_romo@quickmail.apple.com>
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: Fresh Friday
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>                      Subject:                              Time:  11:52 AM
>  OFFICE MEMO         Fresh Friday                          Date:  9/16/93
>Hey everyone...
>
>Rumor has it...all right, Scotty told me that this Friday is the last Fresh
>Fridays at FX and he is gonna spin and so will Rick Preston (who got SLIGHTED
>at that vision...it's too bad---when are people gonna take the risk and break
>up the Jeno/Garth/Josh conglomerate?  Great DJs, but there is a lot of great
>talent out there, and Rick is a pretty incredible dj--check him out at
>Grooooove Kitchen)....
>it should be a good time...also check out FreeLife (if it going on) at FX on
>Monday...Deep Space is tonight..
>
>wow, I am just your South Bay info line today...
>
>be happy, be happy, be happy.
>
>m i k e

One other note before I commnet about JenoGarthJosh:  The Zanzibar is
closing down.  It will be open this friday, and I think a couple more after
that before it closes.  Josh will be ripping it up until then.  Come out,
say hi, have a drink, socialize (for the longest time they didn't check
ID's on Fri/Sun)!  This place was at one time the Mecca for the After-Hours
of the scene here in SF.

Onto the drug: 
The JenoGarthJosh isx Martin's thang.  Just like YSH has it's crew of
people who always spins, just like Wicked has it's posse, and just like
Deep Space has it's own, Martin has his thang.  Every club/party/rave has
an indentity.  It's all in how the promoter wants to present that identity,
is what counts.  For instance, Groove Kitchen is this weekend (I'll be
there in full form!).  Preston has made it a point to let ANYONE spin who
can do the do.  And he has always given breaks to new talent, as well as
give props to the people who've been in the mix for a while.  So he has
John Howard (great guy, good dj!), Ernie Munson (nned anyone say more), and
Spun (Who?  Only kidding, another great one!), and Rick Preston (good dj,
great guy, great dj, good guy). John's the newest of the bunch! Then
there's Wicked, you know that lineup (Jeno, Garth, Markie, Thomas)!  Each
have their own identity.  Wicked has it's crew that hardly ever changes
(unless one of them is out of town).  Both are great parties.  One has a
"formula" (i.e. same DJ lineup), one has a different "formula" (vet DJs
with relative newcomers thrown in for spice).

The problem I see, is that people have become quite used to the formula of
JenoGarth.  And there is this mythos that not booking them will kill your
party.  The promoters who think that, as well as the people who will only
go out when these two are in concert, are part of the problem.  The Bay
Area has, by far, some of the greatest talent to choose from.  There is no
reason why you could not book lesser known DJ's and do quite well. The BEST
mix though is some seasoned vets along with some new meat, like Preston
does.  I personally like all vets, since I hate to play with the vibe.  

My dream lineup would be:
Markie, Ernie, Josh, James, Tony. The first party to do that combo will be
one killa party (each DJ for 2.5 or 2 hours!). I can feel it now!

John  

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:41:49 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 13:41:42 -0700
In-Reply-To: Richard.Schiavi@eng.sun.com (Rich Schiavi)
       "Re: Homelessness,cabaret laws and curfew" (Sep 16,  1:13pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: Richard.Schiavi@eng.sun.com (Rich Schiavi), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Homelessness,cabaret laws and curfew
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Sep 16,  1:13pm, you proclaimed:
} Is this sfraves, or is this alt.usa.constitution,
} ba.politics,  alt.activism or any other number of fitting groups.
} I've noticed a growing trend toward these issues.
} 
} Pehaps the sfraves-owner would post a policy statement whether non-raves
} issues should be posted ?? - there are enough other newsgroups directed
} at these seemingly non-raves  issues (homelessness, NAFTA, dental floss), 
} albiet cabaret laws/curfew are  related. . .

Actually if someone has a treatise on the political role dental floss has
played, I'd love to see it.

Anyways, I think these posts are fine, as long as people are able to tie it
back into the scene and how it applies.  So far most of the posts I've seen
have done that.

Like most things, topics on the list ebb and flow... this topic seems to
be at a crest now, so just hang in and keep your itchy trigger key on the
"d" button. :)

	Brian


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:48:21 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309161820.AA15465@jimi.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Technology
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 I have a feeling,that whether NAFTA passes or not,we are heading into a
society where machines using artificial intelligence,technologies like
expert systems,voice recognition,robotics and easy telecommuting are going
to free a lot of people from the necessity of doing work.(If anyone
disagrees with me,I'd like to see their arguments.. this is a very
interesting subject for me.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know how I feel about this Chris, but I have seen some convincing 
arguments that say that technology just re-arranges the work force.  Takes
out workers here in this field, creates work in another.  This is supported
(or seems to be) by the fact that in most households with two adults, they
both work.  30, 40 years ago this was not true.  Even though the unemployment
rate is higher, there are more human bodies working.  Combined with the 
economy, we have more workers getting less out of the money they work for.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:55:25 1993
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From: Richard.Schiavi@Eng.Sun.COM (Rich Schiavi)
Message-Id: <9309162054.AA12288@radgumbo.Eng.Sun.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, Richard.Schiavi@Eng.Sun.COM,
        geoffw@internex.net
Subject: Re: Homelessness,cabaret laws and curfew
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I guess you have the up-to-date list of the active Scene members, eh?

Please don't make these blind accusations of someone you
know nothing about, or partake me as someone I am not.
It pisses me off, and it makes you sounds clueless. I don't
like being pissed, and am sure you are not clueless. 

I made a statement. I saw no mention or correlation of homelessness
and raves, and other issues in many posts and just wanted to get the
connection.  I guess I'm not as intelligent and able to grasp the big
picture as well as you are my friend. Other people (I inclusive) are
just as, if not more active with many and more of these issues than
you, Mr. Judge, so relax.

life goes on, within you  or without you,

rich

>
>If you were hanging around the Scene, you would realize that things like
>homelessness is important because several ravers that I know have wound up
>homeless.  It's important to talk about the Constitution because last time
>I checked we had the freedom of peaceable assembly and could not be
>subject to unnecessary search and seizure, all very important if you
>are going out raving. Perhaps you were mistaken and thought raves were just
>one big party where you could get blasted and pick up on cute raver chicks.
>
>Maybe you should get a clue.
>

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 13:55:51 1993
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From: lollar@cardio.ucsf.EDU (Phillip Lollar)
Message-Id: <9309162055.AA04526@cardio.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Ocean Beach B-Man
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 13:55:45 -0700 (MDT)
Cc: lollar@cardio.ucsf.EDU
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RE:  BURNING MAN AT OCEAN BEACH\


A few days ago someone posted a notice of an extra burning man (left over
from the Nevada event) to be burnt in celebration of its left-over status
at Ocean Beach, south end, at dusk.  All this I scribbled on a scrap of hard
copy.  Everything...but .... the... DAY!

Is this still happening?  If so, is it Friday, Sat? Sun?  Could somenone
pleez post a reminder before 5 PM today (thurs)?  I would be most grateful!
:) }:)   8)


10-Q

PHL,    lollar@cardio.ucsf.edu

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 14:01:49 1993
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Thought I'd pass this one on, something I just heard about. . . 

-rich

----- Begin Included Message -----

Forwards deleted...


Not a fun posting, sorry.

--kevin


----- Begin Included Message -----

==============================================================
Please pass this on to people who live in the San Jose area. 

This is the second email I have received via the Childcare alias about 
this problem! 

M...... 

Hey All-

Wendy (my roommate) told me that the San Jose Police sent a flyer
out to the hospital where she works stating that the newest thing in
gang initation is to drive around at night without their car lights
on and wait for the first random driver to flash their lights at them.
Well, this may not see like such a big deal...but the kicker is that 
once a car flashes their lights they follow the car and then shoot the 
driver.

I just thought I'd spread the word so my favorite people don't start
flashing their lights.


Drive safely!


----- End Included Message -----



----- End Included Message -----


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 14:07:37 1993
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To: jsl@netcom.com
Subject: Re: SF City Hall & the homeless
From: andy@wco.ftp.com  (Andy Nourse)
Cc: roy@harlequin.co.uk, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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>   >  Howard> Pity that they don't consider it terrible to see homeless people
>   >  Howard> on the streets as they drive to work, though.  

    They do, so Herr Jordan sic'ed the police on them...

>   The fact is this city is quite generous to homeless folx.  Moreso than
>   other places, which is why we have a disproportionate amount of them here
>   in the city.  The problem is the limited resources the city has to deal
>   with the problems.

    It's also the case that being homeless out here is not a lethal condition,
    as it may be in the snowbelt in the winter, when you will freeze to death
    if you don't get inside.

>                          Handing out free food IMO only makes things worse. 

    It's hard to reconcile this statement with:

>   ...more compassion, and a true effor to help anyone who is needy.

    Food-not-bombs makes such an effort, and get arrested for it :^(
    The city hasn't any extra money, but they find the resources to
    arrest these people and seize the food and throw it away.

    The question must be raised: exactly *how* can we help these people.
    It takes more than just throwing money at the problem.



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 14:16:29 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 14:18:22 -0800
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
X-Sender: jamiel@ralph.sybase.com
Subject: Re: the homeless & healing
Content-Length: 1083
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At  1:41 PM 9/16/93 -0700, John S. Lee wrote:

>
>As for the Food-Not-Bombs, I don't necessarily agree with what he is doing
>(esp considering his history).  But but I think he should be allowed to do

What is his history? Haven't heard.

>
>When o when will these "POP" organizations stop the BS.  For instance, why
>not "Jobs Not Bombs".  How about "Defense Conversion Not Bombs" or even
>"Re-open safe, clean, mental facilities not bombs".  These are the REAL
>issues here.  And until they are adressed we will always have this
>sickening homeless situation.  Typical of Western thought, attack the
>symptom, but leave the problem alone.  Food is all fine and well, but when

I agree that attacking the source is nessessary, but if you don't attack
the symptom, you don't have a patient any more. And, in all honesty, what
can a group like fnb do about health, education, and welfare? You do what
you can.

>you don't adress health, education, and welfare, all the food in the world
>solves no problem at all.

jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 14:41:03 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 17:40:52 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309162140.AA16794@pilot.njin.net>
To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Cc: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: SF Sherriff comes out for Legalization, and 2 1200's for $600.
In-Reply-To: <9309162019.AA01180@soda.berkeley.edu>
References: <9309162019.AA01180@soda.berkeley.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Brian Behlendorf writes:
 > First, while perusing the Classified Flea Market, I found a pair of 
 > Technics SL1200's for $600.... call 510-687-5038 if you're interested.
 > ...
 > HENNESSEY BRAVELY URGES REPEAL OF TOUGH DRUG LAWS

Wow, thanks for posting that. It's good to hear there's some sanity
afoot in law enforcement.

Now, if anyone sees a good price on a dual-CD mixing deck... :)

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 14:50:29 1993
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From: red@net.bio.net (Ben Wing)
Message-Id: <9309162150.AA24051@net.bio.net>
To: jsl@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: security - super cop law breakers
Newsgroups: 
In-Reply-To: <9309161533.AA13811@netcom.netcom.com>
Organization: Straight On Till Morning
Cc: 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

In article <9309161533.AA13811@netcom.netcom.com> you write:
|
|I disagree Roy.  The laws here are quite explicit about search and seizure.
| First they asked Geoff to open up his stuff (illegal!  Only the cops can
|do this and they must have reasonable cause.  Security cannot, they do not
|have the color of authority! Sorry.).  Secondly they confiscated a
|pocket-knife.  That's seizure.  Illegal since the search was illegal,
|illegal since they did not have probable cause.  That is why REPUTABLE
|security, does pat-downs for weapons, and usually dis-allows back-packs,
|since they cannot legally search backpacks.

John, I think you're a bit confused about "rights" like those against
search and seizure.  The Constitution specifically says what the
FEDERAL government may and may not do, that's pretty much all.  Some of
the more recent amendments cover state governments, and through them
(esp. the 14th [?] Amendment, which says "no state may deny anyone
his life, liberty, or property without due process of law") the
Supreme Court has extended most of our "fundamental rights" to apply
to state governments.  The reason these apply to city police as well
is presumably that city governments do not have separate legal powers
from state governments (unlike state vs. federal government) but are
strictly subservient to them.

However, NONE of this applies to private citizens such as Lyon security
guards.  There are entirely separate laws for this (e.g. those that
prevent theft).  THERE IS NO LAW that says it's illegal for a private
citizen to search your possessions.  What the law does say is that
this can't be done without your consent (this would be trespassing,
I think); however, Lyon is breaking no laws by asking you if they
can search your bag, and is breaking no laws by requiring you to
leave if you refuse to submit to the search.  Now if they only did
this to black people, or women, or whatever, this would be different
because there are anti-discrimination laws that forbid this sort of
behavior.  But there are simply no laws that prevent discrimination on
the basis of refusing to submit to a search.

ben

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 14:56:25 1993
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Subject: Ahem.. Random topics
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers list)
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 14:56:17 PDT
From: DWATANAB@uci.edu (Dana Watanabe)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

although i may or may not be one to talk..

just a reminder that its hard to hold a luv phasor
at the same time as a flame thrower

:)

 ,
dana

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 15:13:52 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 15:03:52 PDT
From: alves@bethe.ucdavis.edu (David Alves)
Message-Id: <9309162203.AA15348@bethe.ucdavis.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: toon town
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



>In my opinion..it is so so sad,that ToonTown never really acheived its promise
>of being a true playground for the mind..  Greed ruins many things.
>-Chris.

At least it tried

It seems to me that it is *lots* harder to keep things *moving* on an
intellectual level - cuz that means constant reinvention.  

I'm not a promoter but for larger raves but I wish more money was spent
on a creative support staff - artists, set people, maybe a cast of characters
who could encourage participation.  Not just theme parties but something more
grand, an idea, a direction, take me somewhere, or better - let's hook up and 
then we'll all go there 
we'll make there 
there must be made
shade
fade
maybe overplayed  ;)
 
My brain is asleep and I am wearing jogging shoes
A playground for the mind is a tough promise to make

Sorry for being a bit cynical
Dave



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 15:41:06 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 15:40:58 PDT
From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309162240.AA05711@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, abbe@bronze.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Homeless, Energy, Building
Cc: jlf3@attmail.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Rademir declares: 
> The whole system's gotta go.
>  
> And it's going. We can feel it. But rather than putting energy into helping 
> tear it down, I see a need to build a new system. *Before* the old one's 
> gone. One that has a conscious societal perspective, allowing us to choose to 
> support everyone, and to stop exploiting each other (and our future, 
> environment/resources-wise), and to still create more than enough for 
> everyone to lead very fulfilled lives. And dammit, I *still* haven't been to 
> a rave, but I can feel that energy here!

IMO, The problems of our society do not reside within the structure of our
political/economic systems, but rather with the fundamentals of human
nature.  There will be no significant change without some kind of
spiritual reawakening.  When people start becoming aware of the powers
within them, and how they are interconnected with the forces around them,
then they might start acting for the common and individual good.  Instead,
we tend to live in fear of each other and of a world where idealism is 
fantasized or scoffed at while each of us fights for a piece of a 
shrinking pie.

I find Raving to be one of the few modern rituals that promotes an 
idealistic (and doctrineless), yet experiential, awareness of the harmony 
that exists within us, with each other, and with the Universe in general.  
There are many things we can do in many areas of our lives to try make 
things "better".  But most of these things are just addressing the 
symptoms of the frightened and confused nature of the human psyche.  If
society is going to evolve, than individuals must too.  I'm not saying that 
we should deny our current biologically evolved nature, just that we have 
to start realizing that being human is just a part of something much bigger.

In a sense, I think we have outgrown our own usefulness as humans.  We are
on the threshold of being able to genetically and physically reengineer 
our bodies and our brains.  But do we even know what we are aiming for? 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com
____________________________________________________________________________



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 15:50:56 1993
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From: gmosheh@nyx.cs.du.edu (Gregor Mosheh)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: dana's post
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


just a reminder that its hard to hold a luv phasor
at the same time as a flame thrower

True, but a good shotgun will take them both out.

Just my $.02 worth.
GM

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 15:59:03 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309162259.AA01330@koko.csustan.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: any cheap motels...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

hey, can anyone recommend a nice, but inexpensive,secure motel in the S.F. ares
where we can camp at on Sat. 18th so me and my freinds don't have to leave early
for an 1.5 hr drive from S.F..

P.S. we want to stay in S.F. so we can get some sleep to make it to Womad the next day.

anyone, anyone...........thanx!

Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 16:12:56 1993
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To: vivianm@src.dec.com
Subject: Re: Smile! you're on candid camera (was re: Lyon's Security...)
From: andy@wco.ftp.com  (Andy Nourse)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Originating-Client: tiedye.wco.ftp.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>   Well in DV8 they have taken it a step further.  They have installed 
>   a camera in the men's bathroom.  When I was there a few weeks ago, 
>   two people were arrested for drug related incidences.

    How long could a camera remain unmolested in such a location?
    I'd think they'll get rather tired of cleaning sh*t off the lens.

    


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 16:51:52 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Cc: Richard.Schiavi@eng.sun.com (Rich Schiavi)
Subject: Re: gang violence
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 16 Sep 93 14:01:19 PDT
    from Richard.Schiavi@eng.sun.com (Rich Schiavi)
    <9309162101.AA12323@radgumbo.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 16:51:35 -0700
From: vivianm@src.dec.com
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Thanks a lot for posting that message. I for one will not flash my 
lights at anyone with their lights off and will warn my friends and 
family.





vivianm

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 17:02:07 1993
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To: red@net.bio.net (Ben Wing)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: security - super cop law breakers
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>John, I think you're a bit confused about "rights" like those against
>search and seizure.  The Constitution specifically says what the
>FEDERAL government may and may not do, that's pretty much all.  Some of
>the more recent amendments cover state governments, and through them
>(esp. the 14th [?] Amendment, which says "no state may deny anyone
>his life, liberty, or property without due process of law") the
>Supreme Court has extended most of our "fundamental rights" to apply
>to state governments.  The reason these apply to city police as well
>is presumably that city governments do not have separate legal powers
>from state governments (unlike state vs. federal government) but are
>strictly subservient to them.
>
>However, NONE of this applies to private citizens such as Lyon security
>guards.  There are entirely separate laws for this (e.g. those that
>prevent theft).  THERE IS NO LAW that says it's illegal for a private
>citizen to search your possessions.  What the law does say is that
>this can't be done without your consent (this would be trespassing,
>I think); however, Lyon is breaking no laws by asking you if they
>can search your bag, and is breaking no laws by requiring you to
>leave if you refuse to submit to the search.  Now if they only did
>this to black people, or women, or whatever, this would be different
>because there are anti-discrimination laws that forbid this sort of
>behavior.  But there are simply no laws that prevent discrimination on
>the basis of refusing to submit to a search.
>
>ben

Hmmm...your premise is that there can be FEDERAL laws do not apply to
private citizens, and I beleive this is not true.  FEDERAL laws supercede
all laws.  No state can make laws more restrcitive than those of the fed,
but they can make laws giving GREATER freedoms. So in the case of Lyons,
who has no authority, legal or otherwise, they cannot confiscate anything,
legally.  Only entities that are given powers by the State or those given
powers by the Government have such recourse.  And you as a citizen cannot,
just by giving them permission, chuck your rights out of the window.  The
Bill of Rights applies to ALL people, and to all people given color of
authority. So Lyon's, IMO, is clearly in breach of this.  As for
searches..I still think that they are in the wrong.  They cannot search
ANYTHING without prior consent, reasonable suspicion, and without the
pwoers of the state (none of which they have, expcept for those people
willing to put up with such BS).  In other words if the state cannot
search, and the fed cannot search, then private citizenry, certainly cannot
search.  I take the evidence of most places dis-allowing backpacks, because
they KNOW that the LAW says they cannot search them.  Esp here in
California that has very explicit, and very powerful privacy laws.

The idea that FEDREAL laws do not apply has already been rebutted.  This is
why individual citizens, who deprive others of their rights, can be tried
for "due process". "violation of civil rights", etc.  IMO, Lyon's is
guilty, and they know it.  That's why when it comes to it, if you back your
shit up, they will back down.  Or just don't submit to their searches,
cause a stink in the line, until these super-cops back the hell off!  They
will, beleive me, they will.


Interesting thoughts you presented...maybe we oughta cite some cases?
John  

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 17:02:34 1993
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From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309170002.AA21935@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Womad ticket for sale
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

A friend of mine in Davis has a ticket for Womad and can't go. I can
bring it into town (perhaps YSH?) sometime. Anyone want to buy it? I
think he said it was $15.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 17:13:47 1993
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From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309170014.AA04864@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Lawsuit
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

If theres a camera in the restroom and it is concealed,I think there is
a legal issue there.Target was just fined something like 10 million dollars for
doing the same thing.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 17:24:28 1993
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Date: 16 Sep 1993 17:31:22 -0800
From: "Scott Nozawa*" <scott_nozawa*@quickmail.apple.com>
Subject: Re:  RAVE GUIDE
To: "SpaceDancers" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

                       Subject:                               Time:17:13
  OFFICE MEMO          RE> RAVE GUIDE                         Date:9/16/93
Hey gang!

      One thing that I didn't see Listed was:  

                              ***  GROOVE  KITCHEN  ***

                                         John Howard
                                         Rick Preston
                                              Spun
                                         Ernie Munson

in that order so it should be a party 8*)
It's at the King St. Garage #415-267-3932

Keep it Alive and Thrive!              T. Scot



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 17:32:33 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 17:31:35 -0700
From: scottie@uclink.berkeley.edu (Scott Everett Swiger)
Message-Id: <9309170031.AA02870@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: MOTHER EARTH SOUND SYSTEM #6
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


MOTHER EARTH SOUND SYSTEM

invites you to gather for

an end-of-summer fling


Saturday, Sept. 25

with DJs
Brad
Scottie
Stonie
and guests

Location info will be put on this number a few days before the party:
	(510) 549-6240

Catch us before we head indoors to hibernate!

PEACE & RESPECT...

			s   c   o   t   t   i   e
			MOTHER EARTH SOUND SYSTEM
			>>>respect your mother<<<


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 18:56:06 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 21:54:22 EDT
From: abbe@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (John C. Abbe aka Rademir)
Message-Id: <9309170154.AA05198@bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: YSH?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Yes,
I think,
this is sort of a strange time for me,
I've been up all night after getting up around 1pm yesterday,
and now
I am going
to my
first
rave
But don't expect me to last all night this first time 'round.
I'll be the one with the morning coat and the Phish t-shirt.
See you at  Your Sister's House!
--Johnnie

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 21:46:10 1993
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 93 21:00:33 PDT
From: dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com (JUMP IN THE FIRE)
Message-Id: <9309170400.AA00221@curly.agames.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Why we never end up working less
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Since less meaningful work is required due to automation, many people no
longer have their original jobs.  Since they don't want to accept a lower
position in the capitalist economy (or no position at all >^) they know
they must get another job to support themselves within the system.  Supply
goes way up while demand decreases: therefore market price drops sharply.
Businesses know this, and realize that it is in their short-term interest
NOT to let people work less hours because they will then require less people
and can take advantage of the surplus of workers.

To break this system we must either place artificial controls on it (I think
a 20 hour work week is plenty: aobut 5 hours/person is sufficient for
subsistence food and shelter given current technology) or remove ourselves
from it by joining the underground economy or dropping out altogether, or
as much as is possible within the USA.  Small and mostly self-sufficient
communities exist all over, and you don't have to work that hard to sustain
once you have set up if you have planned intelligently.  Trouble is that
we are trained to be good consumpto-units, not self-sufficient individuals.

I would personally enjoy starting on this path via putting together
a musically oriented housing co-op in San Jose: for instance, a small apartment
building with communal studio, lounge, and possibly even kitchen space.
It would reduce much of the wasteful duplication of household appliances
and musical instruments, enabling all of us to do more than we could if we
bought it all ourselves, and be a fun place to hang out.  I would imagine a
mix of long-term residents, who would co-operatively own, and renters, who
would be shorter-term, would work well, since not everyone can commit to 
even short years of mortgage payments.  With this approach we are not making
money for a landlord, and mortgage interest is tax-deductible if we did it
right, so it would be cheaper than traditional housing of comparable
luxury.  Santa Clara Cohousing is a good source of information if some people
want to start something like this.

The best way to bring about change is to change.  Anyone interested?

// g

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 16 22:59:25 1993
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From: Robert Jesse <rjesse@us.oracle.com>
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Groove Kitchen / Boogie Buffet
Reply-To: rnj%lila@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

also, here's the lineup for Boogie Buffet this sunday:

in the dark room:
	7-9		Pistol Pete
	9-12 		Gavan (from Tweekin Records)
	12-close	Jeno

in the light room:
	8-10		Harry Who
	10-11		Tiffany
	11-1		Garth
	1-close		Spun

Begin forwarded message:

Date: 16 Sep 1993 17:31:22 -0800
From: "Scott Nozawa*" <scott_nozawa*@quickmail.apple.com>
Subject: Re:  RAVE GUIDE
To: "SpaceDancers" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

                       Subject:                               Time:17:13
  OFFICE MEMO          RE> RAVE GUIDE                         Date:9/16/93
Hey gang!

      One thing that I didn't see Listed was:  


                              ***  GROOVE  KITCHEN  ***

                                         John Howard
                                         Rick Preston
                                              Spun
                                         Ernie Munson

in that order so it should be a party 8*)
It's at the King St. Garage #415-267-3932

Keep it Alive and Thrive!              T. Scot


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 00:39:57 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Homelessness & USA 2001
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

C. Beaumont declares:

>  I have a feeling,that whether NAFTA passes or not,we are heading into a
>society where machines using artificial intelligence,technologies like
>expert systems,voice recognition,robotics and easy telecommuting are going
>to free a lot of people from the necessity of doing work.(If anyone
>disagrees with me,I'd like to see their arguments.. this is a very
>interesting subject for me.) 

The only question I want to ask is WHO will have these "wonderful" (my
phrasing), technologies.  Right now we have a very large underclass, that
has never touched a computer.  What you speak of will drive them further
into the abyss.  Until technology is in everyones hands, and until everyone
has the opprtunity to use it, then we continue the cycle of have/have-nots.
 And technology, for all it's benefits, makes that situation even more
cruel than it is now.

> Ultimately I think the government will adopt the only sane policy.

Govt. is concerned with ONE thing only.  More Govt.  The policies they
adopt are to perpetuate themselves.  Depending upon this single party
system we have here in the US to solve ANY problems, is like pissing in the
wind; No matter which direction you turn, it'll always end up in your face.

>With 5% of the worlds population here in the United States using 40% of
>the worlds resources reducing consumption is the only way to go. Otherwise
>the world is heading towards a living hell, and no amount of walls or guns
>will protect the idle rich from it's repercussions.

True on the first statement, but when you look at the complete brainwashing
this country has done on it's citizens, Icannot see things turning around
drastically anytime soon.  People love the USA's Bread & Circuses (A TV in
every home and American Gladiators on each channel, and food for all), and
are unwilling at this stage to give them up.  Until we form more clannish
communities based upon respect & trust, the opportunities to change this
corrupt system is nil.  And until such opportunities for change present
themselves, there are plenty of guns, and plenty of money to keep the
natives in line.

>America is the most productive economy in the world.

Yes indeed. Also one of the most exploitative. Also one of the worlds MOST
unbalanced.  1% of the people who runthe show here control 80% of the
wealth.  All on the backs of workers, who have seen more mergers, buyouts,
and conglomerations form at the cost of their once "prodcutive" jobs.  All
to keep this economy going.  Sickness, my man, sickness.

>In a future where few people
>have to work.. with the present paradigm..this will mean that most people
>will be considered worthless?

The future is NOW.  People are considered worthless in this society.  We
throw away human beings here like we flush the toilet.  We talk a good game
about change, but when it really comes down to it, all most care about is
themselves. The fact that there are still soo many incumbents in office is
proof positive.  The fact that there are soo many illetrates is another
proof.  Homelessness seals my case. The fact that things can be changed
now, by people getting involved and participating to change this system
(via the vote), and by only a 30% turnout just shows me we have a long way
to go.  Hell, if people won't do it when it's easy, what makes you think
that when things require some real effort that they won't revert to the
easiest route;Mob Rule! (BTW I don't want any of these lazy folx making any
decisions when the time comes!). Bladerunner, here we come.

All I can say is that your vision of the future is bright, yet my forecast
sees cloudiness with perpetual rain for some time to come.  Until then,
I'll do what I can to change NOW, but prepare for LATER.  That is the only
logical recourse, IMO.

Peace,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 00:41:36 1993
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To: rnj%lila@us.oracle.com
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: Groove Kitchen / Boogie Buffet
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>also, here's the lineup for Boogie Buffet this sunday:
>
>in the dark room:
>        7-9             Pistol Pete
>        9-12            Gavan (from Tweekin Records)
>        12-close        Jeno
>
>in the light room:
>        8-10            Harry Who
>        10-11           Tiffany
>        11-1            Garth
>        1-close         Spun
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>
>Date: 16 Sep 1993 17:31:22 -0800
>From: "Scott Nozawa*" <scott_nozawa*@quickmail.apple.com>
>Subject: Re:  RAVE GUIDE
>To: "SpaceDancers" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
>Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU
>
>                       Subject:                               Time:17:13
>  OFFICE MEMO          RE> RAVE GUIDE                         Date:9/16/93
>Hey gang!
>
>      One thing that I didn't see Listed was:  
>
>
>                              ***  GROOVE  KITCHEN  ***
>
>                                         John Howard
>                                         Rick Preston
>                                              Spun
>                                         Ernie Munson
>
>in that order so it should be a party 8*)
>It's at the King St. Garage #415-267-3932
>
>Keep it Alive and Thrive!              T. Scot


All I can say is whoooa doctor!  If there was a weekend to be out of your
wig, this is it!

Hell, first I'm gonna drop by Wicked (I'm sure there'll be some obscene
line, so I'll go after 1:00 a.m).  Then I'll head over to Groove Kitchen
and close it down.  Afterward, I'll go to Boogie and finish my tweek
session!  I have a meeting at 3:00 p.m., so I ougta be in FINE shape by the
time it rolls around :)  Smiles GALORE!  All the parties this weeknd ougta
go off real well!  Hope to see some of you sometime this weekend!

Peace out,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 06:09:01 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 14:10:07 BST
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To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu
Cc: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: Brian Behlendorf's message of Thu, 16 Sep 1993 12:22:29 -0700 <9309161922.AA26987@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Cabaret Law hearing at SF City Hall
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  Brian> I think "fear of the unknown" is a trait that has been with
  Brian> us for a long time, is not just a Western concept, and is
  Brian> something that's very much a part of human nature, so
  Brian> fighting it isn't ever a good solution.

My point is that we as individuals have to learn to cope with the fear
of the unknown.  Advocating destroying the unknown is not an
answer....

	Cosmic

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 06:46:15 1993
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Via: uk.ac.bristol.irix; Fri, 17 Sep 1993 14:45:53 +0100
From: Miles Pearce <Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <25129.9309171445@irix.bristol.ac.uk>
Subject: gang violence
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 14:45:31 +0000 (GMT)
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How, and why is it that a great section of the civilian population in the US
is armed?

Miles

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 07:14:21 1993
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In-Reply-To: Miles Pearce's message of Fri, 17 Sep 1993 14:45:31 +0000 (GMT) <25129.9309171445@irix.bristol.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: gang violence
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  Miles> How, and why is it that a great section of the civilian population in the US
  Miles> is armed?

Because, living in a society where a great section of the civilian
population is armed, many people feel the need to be able to defend
themselves against people wielding firearms...

It's selfperpetuating, unfortunatly... :(


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 07:57:16 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309171457.AA13516@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Groove Kitchen / Wicked
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


I've heard that Wicked is going to be at 177 Townsend.  Last time
Wicked and Groove Kitchen were under the same roof they opened the
connecting hallway at around 5:30.  

- leg of eel

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 08:00:49 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 08:00:42 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: 2 resources available for FTP
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

1)  A nicely formatted Word 2.0 (for Windows) version of my Guide version
1.0 is available on techno.stanford.edu, as /pub/incoming/iconekt1.doc.

2)  A JPEG of the flyers for Ethan's party "Home" are also there - 
/pub/incoming/home.jpg, and a few others....

        Brian

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 08:22:03 1993
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From: nrg@netcom.com (Ethan I. Miller)
Message-Id: <9309171522.AA08288@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Groove Kitchen / Wicked
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 8:22:18 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9309171457.AA13516@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>; from "Lee Fogel" at Sep 17, 93 7:57 am
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> 
> 
> I've heard that Wicked is going to be at 177 Townsend.  Last time
> Wicked and Groove Kitchen were under the same roof they opened the
> connecting hallway at around 5:30.  
> 
> - leg of eel
> 
Geez, I heard Rhythn was at Townsend on Saturdays, Wicked was going to be
at Big Heart, and GK I assumed would be at King St....

This from a reliable source  :)

see ya
ethan

-- 

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 08:34:33 1993
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Message-Id: <9309171534.AA14822@netcom.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Take ACTION
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Look,

Here is a GREAT opportunity to get something done here in SF.  Call
supervisor Hallinan and the others and let them know how you feel about the
present CAB laws in SF.  The supe's (Hallinan) # is: 415-554-7766.  You can
leave a message, it only takes a couple of minutes!  I just called him and
told him how I felt.  I also indicated the the arguments the cops raised
were erroneuous, and that the vendors (retailers) thoughts on night-clubs
contributing to crime were erroneous as well.  I laso indicated that over
the next two weeks there will be a petition signing campaign and voter
registration of people 18+, who are adults and are of VOTING AGE!

If we want to change things here's an opportunity that is within everyones
grasp.  I know that it does not apply to 18-, but we HAVE to start
somewhere, and this is as good a place as any.  Think about it, make a
call, and stay tuned for a massive petition signing campaign, coming to a
party near you.

Partyon Susie:  I'll try to contact you today!

Later,
John 

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 08:43:16 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: WARNING:Non-rave, Party's getting rough! 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Folks if you want PGP better get it while you can!
Looks like it is about to go the way of the AK-47!

The important thing here is that ViaCrypt is producing a legal
fully licensed PGP.  The feds don't want you to have this program
(or any other strong crypto for that matter) find out why...





--------------------------------------------------------------

On Tuesday, 14 September 93, Leonard Mikus, president of ViaCrypt,
also known as LEMCOM Systems, in Phoenix, Arizona, was served a
Subpoena to Testify Before Grand Jury, to produce documents.  The
subpoena was issued by the US District Court of Northern California,
by Assistant US Attorney William P. Keane in San Jose, as part of an
investigation from the San Jose office of US Customs, conducted by
Special Agent Robin Sterzer.  The US Attorney above Keane is Michael
J. Yamaguchi.

ViaCrypt is the company that will be selling a fully licensed
commercial version of PGP, starting in November.  ViaCrypt has a
license from PKP to sell products that embody the patents held by
PKP.  That includes PGP, using the RSA algorithm.

The subpoena, dated 9 September, orders the production of "Any and
all correspondence, contracts, payments, and records, including those
stored as computer data, involving international distribution related
to ViaCrypt, PGP, Philip Zimmermann, and anyone or any entity acting
on behalf of Philip Zimmermann for the time period June 1, 1991 to
the present."  The date specified for the production of documents is
22 September 93.

The written agreement between ViaCrypt and myself explicitly states
that US State Department cryptographic export controls will be
adhered to.

The implications of this turn of events are that this US Customs
investigation has escalated to the level of a Federal Grand Jury and
a US Attorney.  US Customs says that this change was precipitated by
a ruling recently handed down from the State Department that PGP is
not exportable.  Other subpoenas and/or search warrants are expected.

I am the principal target of the investigation.  I have advised EFF,
CPSR, and my other attorneys of the situation.  A legal defense fund
will be set up by my lead attorney (Phil Dubois, 303 444-3885) here
in Boulder. 

This case raises some serious public policy questions regarding First
Amendment rights to publish, rights to privacy as affected by
widespread availability of cryptographic technology, the equivalance
of electronic publication with paper publication, the availablity of
lawful domestic cryptographic technology in the face of export
controls, and certain other Constitutional rights.  This may turn into
the test case for these issues.


-Philip Zimmermann
 prz@acm.org
 303 541-0140
 



-- 


----- End Included Message -----


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 08:55:33 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 08:55:47 -0800
To: Miles Pearce <Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk>
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Subject: Re: gang violence and social change (long)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>How, and why is it that a great section of the civilian population=
 in the US
>is armed?
>
>Miles
Probably here it's because people are scared.Theres a growing gap=
 between rich and poor..a very quickly growing one.. Rich people=
 arm themselves because,ostentiably they want to protect themselves,but=
 also because they
feel,quite tangibly,the growing hatred of the have-nots.Poor people=
 arm themselves for protection,primarily because urban America is=
 becoming a very dangerous place indeed.In my neighborhood,for=
 example..there have been four street killings (by "in my neighborhood",I=
 really mean _on my block,_ Miles.)
One person was killed on July 31 literally eight feet from my front=
 door.
His crime,trying to sell crack on the wrong corner,probably.This=
 certainly
is effecting me...I'm an early riser, and I was just in the coffeeshop=
 downstairs drinking my morning cup..The waitress was playing an=
 old record..
"Harvest" by Neil Young..and a song came on that I havn't heard in=
 years..
"Are You Ready for the Country"..The chorus goes.."Are you ready=
 for the country,because its time to go..." I burst into tears..
With the recent thread in the newsmedia about studies indicating=
 that a huge number of Americans are functionally illiterate,you=
 really wonder how much hope
there is to turn this violent trend around in the future..As John=
 Lee stated,
a lot of people talk a big talk but really couldnt give a flying=
 fuck about anyone other than themselves,if helping other people=
 means they might have to
pay an extra 2 or 3 percent in taxes.In LA something like 30 _public_
communities have applied to wall themselves in,like feudal cities.They=
 think that they can wall it out..but no wall is high enough to keep=
 out the reality of a nation disintegrating from within.Sorry that=
 this thread isn't rave related..but isnt the whole original concept=
 of the rave thing trying to build extended global community.It makes=
 no sense to dance when there is really nothing to dance about.Maybye=
 another part of the rave thing lies in encouraging CONTENT.I move
to change the charter of this group to rave-with an emphasis on encouraging=
 enlightening quantum leaps in social change.We have the tools,if=
 anyone does,but we have to work like wild speed demons.. The social=
 fabric is unraveling right before our very eyes.

-
Chris Beaumont                    nutrient cafe wholesale
ccat@netcom.com                  MIME mail graciously accepted
ccat@casa.stanford.edu           public key available via finger



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 09:36:43 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 12:35:58 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309171635.AA17352@pilot.njin.net>
To: Miles Pearce <Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk>
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: gang violence
In-Reply-To: <25129.9309171445@irix.bristol.ac.uk>
References: <25129.9309171445@irix.bristol.ac.uk>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Miles Pearce writes:
 > How, and why is it that a great section of the civilian population in the US
 > is armed?

Because our constitution guarantees the right, primarily as a means
for the citizens to defend themselves against an oppressive
government, possibly their own.

Sean


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 09:39:46 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, nrg@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Groove Kitchen / Wicked
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I rumored:
> > I've heard that Wicked is going to be at 177 Townsend.  Last time
> > Wicked and Groove Kitchen were under the same roof they opened the
> > connecting hallway at around 5:30.  

Ethan countered:
> Geez, I heard Rhythn was at Townsend on Saturdays, Wicked was going to be
> at Big Heart, and GK I assumed would be at King St....

If Ethan is right, it would be even cooler if the hallway opens
to allow the GK and Rhythm crowds to mix it up.

- leg of eel

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 10:12:57 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 10:12:04 -0800
To: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey), Miles Pearce <Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk>
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
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At 12:35 PM 9/17/93 -0400, Sean Casey wrote:
>Miles Pearce writes:
> > How, and why is it that a great section of the civilian population in the US
> > is armed?
>
>Because our constitution guarantees the right, primarily as a means
>for the citizens to defend themselves against an oppressive
>government, possibly their own.
>
>Sean

Yep. Go get your shotguns while they're hot. A good 12 gauge and the
national gaurd won't be able to touch your house. Real practical. In the
mean time, shoot at strange looking people that pop up on your doorstep in
the middle of the afternoon. Hell you don't know them, and if they are
foreign, they're probably trying to break in anyway. And don't listen to
those bleeding heart types about gun control. Be Bad Guys will have them,
even if they are illegal.

When will people realize that even if it is in the constitution, it is as
outdated and stupid as the rest of the shit that was in it and updated? It
isnn't carved in stone. Look at countries like Germany, where it is next to
impossible to get a gun. Surprise! not much violence using guns. Funny how
that works.

jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 10:45:25 1993
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From: Sue Raisty  <raisty@berlioz.nsc.com>
To: jamiel@sybase.com
Cc: csc@pilot.njin.net, Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence's message of Fri, 17 Sep 1993 10:12:04 -0800 <9309171709.AA07448@ralph.sybgate.sybase.com>
Subject: Freedom
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

--> When will people realize that even if it is in the constitution,
--> it is as outdated and stupid as the rest of the shit that was in
--> it and updated? It isnn't carved in stone. Look at
Reading stuff like this really scares me.  The constitution is what
this country was founded on, and if one of the Bill of Rights
ammendments is deemed "outdated and stupid" what's to stop the
government from deeming all of the outdated and stupid?  You can
already see how your right to protect you from illegal search and
seizure has pretty much gone away.  What about freedom of speech,
freedom of religion?  It sure would be convenient for the government
to get rid of those too, wouldn't it.  And it might even make the
country a safer place to live if we never heard any opposing views or
just threw suspected persons in jail without due process.  But is a
violation of our liberties!  Open your eyes!  Our government was
founded with the purpose to protect the liberties of the people!
That's why you're supposed to be innocent until proved guilty in the
US. We have to try to make today's government follow those principles,
and when we encourage them to take any of our freedoms away we are
going down the wrong path.


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 11:00:24 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 11:00:55 -0800
To: Sue Raisty  <raisty@berlioz.nsc.com>
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
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Subject: Re: Freedom
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At 10:45 AM 9/17/93 -0700, Sue Raisty wrote:
>--> When will people realize that even if it is in the constitution,
>--> it is as outdated and stupid as the rest of the shit that was in
>--> it and updated? It isnn't carved in stone. Look at
>Reading stuff like this really scares me.  The constitution is what

In honesty, I am glad. Not many people even think about it. Thank you.

>this country was founded on, and if one of the Bill of Rights
>ammendments is deemed "outdated and stupid" what's to stop the
>government from deeming all of the outdated and stupid?  You can

Ever heard of amendments? that's how it works. Sure, the legalese for
'outdated and stupid' tends to read better in history books, but it is the
same thing.

>already see how your right to protect you from illegal search and
>seizure has pretty much gone away.  What about freedom of speech,
>freedom of religion?  It sure would be convenient for the government
>to get rid of those too, wouldn't it.  And it might even make the
>country a safer place to live if we never heard any opposing views or
>just threw suspected persons in jail without due process.  But is a
>violation of our liberties!  Open your eyes!  Our government was

My eyes are wide open. The constitution isn't stopping anyone from making
laws which, in my eyes, are obscene. The ones you refer too as will- search
and siezue laws, tricks to bypass due process, how is the constitution
stopping its own erosion?

>founded with the purpose to protect the liberties of the people!
>That's why you're supposed to be innocent until proved guilty in the
>US. We have to try to make today's government follow those principles,
>and when we encourage them to take any of our freedoms away we are
>going down the wrong path.


I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but I assume that you agree
that changes to the constitution over time makes sense- you know, things
like oh, say, women's right to vote. How about that bit about people with
non-white skin being equal citizens? Things like that. The perspective from
which the constitution, that of propertied white men, is not representative
of the United States (representative of who has the power, granted, but...
that's my point). Until enough people realizze thier highschool history
books are crocks, and that people that would tofay be branded as mindless
assholes and racists wrote the 'supreme law of the land' for us, things
will continue to be Just Plain Lousy. You wan treferences to a well written
constitution? Look at Germany's. (I keep goin gback to there as an example
because it is the only place that I 1) am familiar enough with to feel
qualified to comment, and 2) think has a better way of handling things.)

 To bring this back to where it started, I am sorry- the right to posess a
gun is one right I am more than happy to see go out the window- conflicts a
little too much _every day_ with that other right- that to live.

jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 11:07:50 1993
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From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Cc: bananne@casa.stanford.edu
Subject: gang initiation
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

this just showed up in my mailbox...

From acohn@synopsys.com Fri Sep 17 09:08:51 1993
From: Ari Cohn <acohn@synopsys.com>
To: mtview@synopsys.com
Subject: BOGUS SJPD Gang Crime Alert

I have just spoken with a representative from the San Jose Police
Dept. Gang Crimes Unit.  They are saying that the e-mail message
forwarded to us yesterday about a lethal gang initiation rite--killing
motorists who flash their headlights at them--is a complete lie.

The SJPD's guess is that some bored or malicious e-mail network
correspondent started the message spontaneously.

Please do not forward the original message about a SJPD Gang Crime
Alert to anyone else.  If you already have, please forward this
message as well.

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I've seen Samu in his underwear, now I can't wait for Drukman to show his."
                                                                 - Pete Ashdown

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 11:13:51 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
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Subject: tamara@ysh.taz.fs.ca.us
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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	I had a *wonerful* time last night. Apparently Tamara was
really pissed that she messed up a lot, but I sure didn't notice. I
loved it.
	All around great time.

-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 11:33:27 1993
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From: andys@ingres.com (Andrew Sherman)
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Subject: Re: gang violence
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF raves mailing list)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 11:33:03 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9309162101.AA12323@radgumbo.Eng.Sun.COM> from "Rich Schiavi" at Sep 16, 93 02:01:19 pm
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Article: 85103 of alt.folklore.urban
Path: ingres!rtech!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu!aristotle.ils.nwu.edu!beckwith
From: beckwith@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Beckwith )
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Lights out, Chicago
Date: 13 Sep 1993 18:39:24 GMT
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <272eos$2eq@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: aristotle.ils.nwu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]

I perused the postings and checked on a faq of uncertain vintage
and didn't notice this one.  I am a little concerned that I didn't
see it in the postings since it has been around in Chicago for about
a week.  Oh well.

By the way, I will violate all standards of net courtesy and NOT
indicate the following quotes by putting them beside  greater than
signs.  I'm not sure how this program works with posting but I 
think it hates quotes.

Suffice it to say, nothing after my name is mine.  The postings can be
found on chi.general if you want to contact the posters.  The Chicago
Police non emergency number is 312-744-4000 (you'll get forwarded).
By the way, I called to make sure they would confirm this and they
did.  The fellow I spoke with said he had heard of it, that it was
"a farce" and he first heard the story over the weekend.


Richard

beckwith@ils.nwu.edu

Subject: flashing headlights / "Lights out" initiation?



This was forwarded to me by a friend who works for the First National
Bank of Chicago, who says the originators of the message seemed serious.

This story sounds a bit like an urban legend -- but as someone who
regularly flashes my headlights to let other drivers know theirs are
off, I'm a bit jumpy.  Can anyone comment?


-----begin forwarded message-----

  Subject: Warning From FNBC Security Division

  Here's an electronic copy of a memo from the FNBC Security Division:

  Beware of "Lights-Out" Gang Initiation!!

  There is a new gang initiation in the Chicagoland area known as
  "lights out."  The crime is initiated by gang members driving around
  with their car lights off.

  When motorists flash their car lights to advise another car that
  their lights are out, gang members take the signal literally as
  "lights out", after which they follow you to your destination and
  kill you!

  To date, two families have already fallen victim to this senseless
  crime.  Therefore, please be aware and inform your friends and family
  not to flash their car lights at anyone!

-----end forwarded message-----



***************************************************


I came across a nearly identical warning today, circulating at UIC Hospital
in the form of a many-times-photocopied flier.  My wife saw a copy of a
similar warning that was faxed to various people at the U of C.
I do not recall any references to 'FNBC Security,' on the flier, however.

I am inclined to believe that this is merely a prank, but I wouldn't go
around flashing my lights at people anyway...
I certainly haven't heard any 'official' comments from CPD or anyone else
on this subject, so, it's probably best just to ignore cars that don't have
their lights on at night.  There are enough wackos in this city anyway.


***************************************************


My wife says that the same sort of fax memo was posted at her Chicago
Public Schools office.  Sounds like an urban myth.  Anyone interested in
goin' out on a midnight drive to check it out?


***************************************************

The Chicago police have said that there were no such incidents.

***************************************************


Yes, the man who started this whole thing now steps forward...

THe co-worker who sent the warning to me said it was a serious memo
(although I didn't ask where/how she got it).  My hypothesis is that
someone in bank security heard the story, and wrote a memo without
checking the facts.

BTW, "FNBC" stands for First National Bank of Chicago.



Article: 85171 of alt.folklore.urban
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban
Path: ingres!rtech!sgiblab!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!ddsw1!chinet!dhartung
From: dhartung@chinet.chinet.com (Dan Hartung)
Subject: Re: Lights out, Chicago
Message-ID: <CDBsvs.2pt@chinet.chinet.com>
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
References: <272eos$2eq@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 04:09:27 GMT
Lines: 40

Beckwith  <beckwith@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu> wrote:
>-----begin forwarded message-----
>
>  There is a new gang initiation in the Chicagoland area known as
>  "lights out."  The crime is initiated by gang members driving around
>  with their car lights off.
>
>  When motorists flash their car lights to advise another car that
>  their lights are out, gang members take the signal literally as
>  "lights out", after which they follow you to your destination and
>  kill you!
>
>  To date, two families have already fallen victim to this senseless
>  crime.  Therefore, please be aware and inform your friends and family
>  not to flash their car lights at anyone!
>
>-----end forwarded message-----

Well, this was reported on Channel 5 (NBC) in Chicago tonight.  
I was initially worried becasue of some semi-lurid previews
in the lead-up to the segment, e.g. "Are gangs engagingly in
a deadly game of tag?" or some such.

Pleasantly surprised was I, however, to see them denounce it
as "URBAN MYTH" (their caps) near the beginning of the story,
followed by denails of its existence from the CPD, as well
as a brief summary of the urban legend concept illustrated
with a picture of _The Choking Doberman_ and mention of
Jan Harold Brunvand.


I don't know what other stations reported, of course; Ch.2 is the
worst offender in the tab tv department these days, thought
Fox 32 is running a close second (they stole 2's producer).

-- 
 |       Bugged by the new 4.3 cent gas tax?  Try tuning up your car!         |
 |    Experts say that most cars can use a tune up, which will improve your   |
 |  gas mileage by 5 to 10 percent -- more than enough to offset the new tax. |
  Daniel A. Hartung  --  dhartung@chinet.chinet.com  --  Ask me about Rotaract



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 12:06:19 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 15:06:14 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309171906.AA22614@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Your Sister's House, Yum!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


OOOOOoooo aaaah I'm in heaven :)

Last night's YSH was one of the best ever:

   Small but *very happy very dancing* crowd.

   Beautiful beautiful color slides projected - some of the best I've
   ever seen at a rave. Made for a gorgeous effect projected across
   the crowd.

   The wonderful wonderful TAZ space.

   Liz n Laura n all the sisters.

   and... Tamara!

Darcy is one of my favorite DJs in the word. She'll be spinning, and
look up at you with this impish smile that means "Oh, I'm not nearly
done with you yet :)." And she can throw the funnest acid trance
groove and plug into the back of my head and make me dance until
things start to break.

So I try and make a point of it to catch her sets. And coming off the
exhilarating end of one of her sets when Tamara started, I really
didn't know what to expect.

Ha ha ha! Little did I know!

Tamara just about killed me. I swear I danced my ass off for her
entire set nonstop. Two hours. My body thought I was going to die. My
brain was in pure heaven. She played "The Naked and the Dead"!! I
can't believe she played that song. I have been wanting to hear it at
a rave for so long... Oh my. Oh my. Very well done. Few DJs have ever
managed to keep me cranked for so long without a break. I love it :).
Can I marry your record collection?

After Tamara, Rebecca played her usually bizzare (at least to me) set,
but by then I was too thrashed. Chill out time, and enjoy the company
and watch the Rebecca show :) (and a show it is).

--BUT WAIT

Stay tuned for next week...

Susan's really excited about her set, which is going to consist of a
lot of new trance and tribal stuff out just this week. Deep tribal
drums. [Picture Susan scrunching up her face and saying with great
emphasis] "Primal, _PRIMAL_ drums."

Oooo la la. I am salivating already...

Sean

"Scotty, I need those Luv Phasors fully recharged by Friday night."
"FRIDAY NIGHT????!?!? Capn!!! It'll take at least a full night's sleep!"
"We haven't got a full night's sleep. I need those Phasors tonight."
(sighs) "Aye, capn, I kin jury-rig it..."
"...but you don't know how long she'll hold. I know. Thanks, Scotty."

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 12:10:52 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 15:09:29 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309171909.AA22667@pilot.njin.net>
To: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
Cc: Miles Pearce <Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk>, csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey),
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: gang violence
In-Reply-To: <9309171709.AA07448@ralph.sybgate.sybase.com>
References: <9309171709.AA07448@ralph.sybgate.sybase.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence writes:
 > When will people realize that even if it is in the constitution, it is as
 > outdated and stupid as the rest of the shit that was in it and updated? It
 > isnn't carved in stone. Look at countries like Germany, where it is next to
 > impossible to get a gun. Surprise! not much violence using guns. Funny how
 > that works.

While you're looking at Germany, look in your history books about
oppressive governments.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 12:39:26 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: not going to WOMAD Sunday?  Why not check out South Bay?
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 12:39:19 -0700
From: vivianm@src.dec.com
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The 2nd Annual SOFA Street Fair is going on in downtown San Jose 
on Sunday for those of you who don't already know. It starts at 12 
noon and goes till 9pm.  I didn't go last year but have seen the lineup this year and it looks really good.  
Here is the low down:
The Dance Stage
**          **

Catastrophic Funk
The Deborah Magee Dancers
Clams Cabaret (a mock casino)
Jozelle Cox
Hot Mixers including: Jazzy Jim, Rex Santa Elena, BB Hayes, and Chris 
Campos
Various DJ's including: Richard G., King Raffi, Jesse, Fred, Brian 
Raffi, Billy Berserk, Frankie, Rick Preston, Harry Who, And Julius"Vitamin 
J" Papp
**          **

On the Rock Stage
**          **

Inka Inka
Phoenix
Riverthings
Touch
Fungo Mungo
Jim Brusseau 
Groove Shop
Shovelhead

On the Arts Stage
**          **

Capoeira San Jose
The Ajax Poets
Farouche and the Desert Delights
The F/X Players (performing a bit from "Hair")
Los Lupenos de San Jose'
Made Sukerti Berg
ComedySportz
Dancers of the Crecent Moon
The Flamenco Society
Velvet Darkness

The clubs in the area of First St. will be open all day serving alcohol. 
I believe for this event is is legal to drink in the street outside the 
clubs. There is even a free screening of the movie "King of the Hill" at 
Camera One. After it is all over, there is an after party at FX that night.  
It should be really fun and it's free.  


Check it out, what have you got to lose..  :-)




vivianm

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 12:42:23 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309171826.AA04598@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: andy@wco.ftp.com, magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu
Subject: Re:  Emporium
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


    It's a yuppie store which seems mostly to cater to the over-50 set.
    I doubt that anyone under 21 buys anything there.

---------

They're deep into the baggy jeans market...I see more than a few pairs of
those around of late...


*

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 12:48:11 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 11:56:02 PDT
From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309171856.AA04819@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: andy@howdy.wustl.edu, bpm@andrew.cmu.edu, dcraves@american.edu,
        mw-raves@engin.umich.edu, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu,
        seraves@auvm.american.edu, sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu,
        socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Subject: Re:  free zine!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



pleez note: i have no financial interest in this zine
i jus wanna do my part to help stop the "secret record society"
from holding back great labels and artists!

andy@howdy.wustl.edu
                    *   .     *        \ /      *  
                       /_\  *  /      -( )- *          |~ /~ 
                      /   \strOboy     / \       *     --o--
                             /                         _/ _|

------------

 hear hear!  That's a great idea, I applaud you!!

Chris

(This text composed by voice)

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 13:25:59 1993
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From: vampyre@uclink.berkeley.edu
Message-Id: <9309172016.AA19202@uclink.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Your Sister's House, Yum!
To: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 13:16:06 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309171906.AA22614@pilot.njin.net> from "Sean Casey" at Sep 17, 93 03:06:14 pm
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> 
> Darcy is one of my favorite DJs in the word. She'll be spinning, and
> look up at you with this impish smile that means "Oh, I'm not nearly
> done with you yet :)." And she can throw the funnest acid trance
> groove and plug into the back of my head and make me dance until
> things start to break.

ditto of the above.
that set was just...i didn't want it to end
fast, sorta tribal...DRC was a goddess yesterday. 'nuff said. 8-)
looks like i'm just going to have to head HOME for this one- sept. 25th

> Tamara just about killed me. I swear I danced my ass off for her

congrats on your debut..

go tam go!
that was a fun set ...she played some songs that i love - most happy.

i wish i could check her out at liquid air, but tam, i guess  i'll have to
wait until your next SF encore showing, so you better come back soon! 8-)

blow 'em away down in socal! 




From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 13:34:04 1993
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Date: 17 Sep 1993 13:33:45 -0800 (PST)
From: SCRUTON@JOYCE.dnet.hac.com
Subject: The infamous BANNED issue of M2000
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <01H321PT4EOI0019Y0@EDEN1.HAC.COM>
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Went into Dalton's "Software Etc" store in the nearest yuppie-mall, and
  was looking for M2000.  Store attendant said they're no longer carrying
  it, due to 'obscene' material in one of the issues.  When prompted for
  details, said attendant mentioned something about "naked people doing
  things you don't want to see"..

MEANWHILE, "Mortal Kombat" was running on the Sega boxes right behind the
  attendant, and characters on the screen were ripping each other's heads
  off and whipping the victim's extracted spinal cord around like taffy.
  The screen was awash in blood. 

What a peculiar sense of 'obscenity' the Dalton Book chain has! Tell me,
  sfravers, which sorts of people would YOU rather have over for dinner,
  the knife-weilding chiropractors from HELL out of Mortal Kombat, or the
  Mondo2000 buff photo-crue???

Of course, we all know about that pesky ol' obscene National Geographic!


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 13:38:41 1993
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From: adamb@peg.apc.org
Message-Id: <9309172036.AA03336@igc.apc.org>
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject:  Re: Caberet Law hearing at SF City Hall
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



  Brian> I think "fear of the unknown" is a trait that has been with
  Brian> us for a long time, is not just a Western concept, and is
  Brian> something that's very much a part of human nature, so
  Brian> fighting it isn't ever a good solution.

> My point is that we as individuals have to learn to cope with the fear
> of the unknown.  Advocating destroying the unknown is not an
> answer....

>	Cosmic


"The important thing is to annhilate the important thing."
                -- Sukenick

L8R@InterRAVE.IRC


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 13:45:52 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Correction
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

John S. Lee says:
As for the Food-Not-Bombs, I don't necessarily agree with what he is doing
(esp considering his history).  But but I think he should be allowed to do
it.  The permit thing is a complete farce.  Just more of the same for SF.
But it is suprising that of all places the city council of Berkley would
complain about having to take on more than they can chew, when SF has been
doing that for some time.  I guess when it's time for the left to do it's
share, all it can do is complain.  Let's see how Berkely effectively deals
with this crisis.  I predict, like other citites, they will do the same
thing SF has been accused of.  They will make "laws" in such a way as to
discourage the homless from being there. And when that fails, they will
have their own "Matrix" to deal with.  News at 11!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh, John, maybe you don't hang in Berkeley much or know much about it but
Berkeley could be considered a homeless capitol or a homeless mecca.  I don't
know this as fact but I bet we have more homeless per capita than SF or maybe
any city.  But, our overburdened system will be more so if your mayor keeps
rudely forcing more homeless in our direction.  Anyway, the tone of your 
mail seems to indicate "now it's berkeley's turn, let's see what they do"
and I just wanted you to know we've been on the ride at least as long as SF,
if not longer.  No hard feelings or anything, I just wanted it to be known
if it wasn't already.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 14:05:04 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309172058.AA01391@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: NOT RAVE RELATED (was Re: Gang violence)
To: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 13:58:36 PDT
Cc: jamiel@sybase.com, Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk, csc@pilot.njin.net,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309171909.AA22667@pilot.njin.net>; from "Sean Casey" at Sep 17, 93 3:09 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sean Casey sez:
> 
> Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence writes:
>  > When will people realize that even if it is in the constitution, it is as
>  > outdated and stupid as the rest of the shit that was in it and updated? It
>  > isnn't carved in stone. Look at countries like Germany, where it is next to
>  > impossible to get a gun. Surprise! not much violence using guns. Funny how
>  > that works.
> 
> While you're looking at Germany, look in your history books about
> oppressive governments.
> 

Germany has some very interesting solutions to some problems.  I guess
you could say they handle things in a typically german manner.  When I
was there, I commented to a native about the lack of homeless people.
(This was in Bad Kreutznach, a town to the west of Frankfurt and just
south of Bingen).  He seemed to not understand what I said (not
unusual, my German is pretty poor :-) but what he didn't understand
was how we had a homeless problem overall.  Apparently, in BK its
illegal to be homeless (something like vagrancy here) and the police
will pick up people and give them jobs picking up litter and such
until they can afford to move on.  (This isn't as bad as it sounds,
spending nights outside there esp. in winter would definantly prove
lethal pretty quickly).  I didn't find out where the people live, but
it was apparent that no one stayed in such a program long.

In any case, there were no homeless, and the city was very clean, (except
for the American army base I was at, pretty damn disgraceful if you
ask me).  

I have no idea if large German cities handle things this way, and I
neither approve nor disapprove of this policy, but it lends some
insight into the different roles that americans and europeans feel
their government should play.

-H-



-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey, DoD #0944				   howard@netcom.com
             "I am the Barney of Radio."  -- Rush Limbaugh      
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 14:20:07 1993
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From: Fred Heutte <phred@well.sf.ca.us>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  Your Sister's House, Yum!
Message-Id: <93Sep17.141914pdt.14121-3@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Fri, 17 Sep 1993 14:18:39 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The reviews are in, Tamara!  Way to go!!

I'm off for a weekend of nw-raving in Seattle.  Wish me luck ;-)

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 14:49:14 1993
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To: Roy Badami <uunet!harlequin.co.uk!roy@uunet.UU.NET>
Cc: Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, gwh@lurnix.COM
Subject: Re: gang violence 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Sep 93 15:15:16 BST."
             <9071.9309171415@wundt.harlequin.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 14:03:47 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


sfraves is not a gun control mailing list.

I know a lot of people who rave and shoot/own guns.
I know a lot of people who rave and don't.
We're not psychopathic killers, we don't go around
playing vigilante or anything stupid like that.
Guns used in crime and guns owned by normal people
are two totally seperate issues, which have very
little to do with each other.  And no involvement
in raves whatsoever, presuming everyone's being 
cool at the Raves 8-)



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 14:53:29 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 14:51:30 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: your sisters house
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

my first ever visit to YSH was last night.  scary neighborhood, but
fortunately parking close to the spot was a cinch.  i think $5 is
kinda steep to hang out in someone's loft, but that's why oracle pays
me the big bucks.  anyway, the scene was very cool, and made me wish i
could get out more on weeknights.  since i only got 4 hrs of sleep and
am not too terribly tired right now maybe i'll try it more often...

anyway, i heard a little of darcy's set which was interesting but not
really my cup of tea.  then, tamara's debut was great.  give her a big
hand people - when i only had her level of experience, i was horrible.

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I've seen Samu in his underwear, now I can't wait for Drukman to show his."
                                                                 - Pete Ashdown

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 15:03:02 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309172156.AA08585@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: NOT RAVE RELATED (was Re: Gang violence)
To: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 14:56:18 PDT
Cc: csc@pilot.njin.net, jamiel@sybase.com, Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309172058.AA01391@netcom3.netcom.com>; from "Howard Berkey" at Sep 17, 93 1:58 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I said:
> 
> I have no idea if large German cities handle things this way, and I
> neither approve nor disapprove of this policy, but it lends some
> insight into the different roles that americans and europeans feel
> their government should play.

Let me clarify my feelings on this;  I would disapprove greatly of
this, except for the fact that the homeless would unquestionably die
in days were they not picked up.  It hits -20 deg. F.  there in the
winter. 


>              "I am the Barney of Radio."  -- Rush Limbaugh      

I suspected this all along :-)

-H-

-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey, DoD #0944				   howard@netcom.com
             "I am the Barney of Radio."  -- Rush Limbaugh      
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 17:41:47 1993
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From: kawakami@noc.usfca.edu (Sea Of Sin)
Message-Id: <9309180043.AA12259@noc.usfca.edu>
Subject: your sister's house
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Discoravers)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 17:43:30 -0700 (PDT)
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Well After a long day of classes and rushing every where to get stuff
done. I went to ysh. I cought the end of DRC's set. Which was really
cool. She said she was trying to let her aggressions out and she usually
plays more tribal. Anyway tam got on, after DRC left her a record that
was a biot fast for her:). Tam did a good job!!! Don't worry about the
Capricorn song, it's a REALLY hard record to mix into. Tam played mostly
tribal stuff. And she even did the UVC dedication of the Trip!:) People
had fun with that song.:) It was nice to see familiar faces again. And
for those people who know me, I didn't sleep at ysh this time! and I out
lasted most of you:). I left around 3:45.:) hehhehe. BTW, Jeno the cat is
doing fine now. He's less crazy but more affectionate. 


cindy


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sea>of<sin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
   D  E  M  A  N  D    T  H  E    F  L  O  W    O  F    R  H  Y  T  H  M
>>>>kawakami@noc.usfca.edu>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<kawakami@alm.admin.usfca.edu<<<
>>>>seaofsin@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>>>><<<<<<<<<cin@coreys.berkeley.edu<<<<<<<<


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 17:42:44 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 17:40:29 PDT
From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309180040.AA00331@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: WICKED tomorrow
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



	WICKED will be upstairs at Big Heart City 
	4th and Mission saturday night.

	DJs are...  (of course)

	Jeno	Markie	Thomas	Garth

	Price of admission will be cheaper before midnight

	(415)542-5713

	This should be a good party!
	This trance addict is jonesin' for a good groove
	so C U there
	

				- G

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 17:46:40 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 17:47:10 PDT
From: jocelyn@hal.com (Jocelyn Cordell)
Message-Id: <9309180047.AA15337@dre.hal.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: gang violence
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



gwh@lurnix.com wrote:

>sfraves is not a gun control mailing list.

No, it isn't, but safety issues with respect to raves have often 
been discussed here. Lest we forget, Gabe was killed at a rave 
in Santa Cruz by random gun fire.

>I know a lot of people who rave and shoot/own guns.
>I know a lot of people who rave and don't.
>We're not psychopathic killers, we don't go around
>playing vigilante or anything stupid like that.

I also know many people who have guns, and most of these people are 
very responsible gun-owners. However, given the large and ever-increasing
amount of violent crime where guns and gunfire are involved, I am
committed to finding some middle-ground on the right to bear arms.

As an aside- most killers aren't psychopaths. In this day and
age I might be hard pressed to even consider them as sociopaths;
killing is becoming at the least tolerable if not acceptable
in our society. Perhaps it's always been this way though.

Here are some proposals:

1.For those who enjoy the firing range:

You can buy a gun at the firing range, where you can also store it
in your own rack. The price of storage would be included in the price 
of the gun. To use it you would "check it out" by signing for it,
listing time of use, etc... and then check it back into storage when
you're finished.

The firing range places would have to acquire a special permit 
to allow them to sell and hold guns. No guns could be carried 
onto the property and no guns could leave the property (except 
those acquired by the range to sell, of course).

2. For those who enjoy hunting:

I grew up in Texas, where hunting is both glorified and ritualized.
I understand that to some banning hunting would be comparable to 
outlawing football (oh no!). That said:

The arrangement would be similar to the firing range, except at 
a hunting lodge. Again you would have to store the weapon at the
lodge. You would sign it out for X number of hours or days, indicating
your destination ,etc.... If you were late in returning 
the gun, you would have to pay a whopping fine
(despite the flat tire you got on the way home :) both to the lodge
and to the govt. Only appropriate hunting guns would be allowed.

3. For those who insist on having guns at home:

You must acquire the same permit as those that the hunting lodges and 
firing ranges have to be able to have guns on your property.
If you don't own your own property, you must first get the landlord's
permission and signature to apply for the permit.
Like the firing range, the firearm cannot leave your house, nor 
can weapons other than the one you own be stored on your property,
or brought onto your property.

4. Transporting guns:

If you move and you want to bring your gun with you:

from the firing range or lodge- apply to a new facility in your new
vicinage. Have the lodge/range ship the gun to the new lodge/range.

Transporting guns would also require an expensive permit.

from your home- apply for a permit to personally transport your gun-
giving day(s), time(s), where you're coming from and moving to.

4. Make carrying a gun (also known as packin') without proper permits
   a felony.

That way people can have guns, they just can't have them in public-
sort of like alcohol regulations, but a little bit stricter.

I know there are many holes in my ideas- feel free to point them out!

Sorry if I wasted bandwidth-

Jocelyn

"Then she melted down all the weapons and made friendship rings
for the world to wear." - narrator in Hurray for Betty Boop!






From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 18:00:11 1993
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To: jamiel@sybase.com
Cc: csc@pilot.njin.net, Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence's message of Fri, 17 Sep 1993 11:00:55 -0800 <9309171758.AA10106@ralph.sybgate.sybase.com>
Subject: Freedom
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I (susan raisty) said this about the US constitution:
--> >founded with the purpose to protect the liberties of the people!
--> >That's why you're supposed to be innocent until proved guilty in
--> the >US. We have to try to make today's government follow those
--> principles, >and when we encourage them to take any of our
--> freedoms away we are >going down the wrong path.


Then (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence) jamiel said this:
--> I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but I assume that you
--> agree that changes to the constitution over time makes sense- you
--> know, things like oh, say, women's right to vote. How about that
--> bit about people with non-white skin being equal citizens? Things
--> like that. 

--> jamiel@sybase.com "Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


There is a fundamental difference between ammending the constitution
to allow women and minorities vote and removing an ammendment from the
bill of rights - the right to bear arms in this case.  One grants MORE
liberties to the citizens and the other TAKES them away.  


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 19:29:11 1993
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To: uunet!hal.com!jocelyn@uunet.UU.NET (Jocelyn Cordell)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, gwh@lurnix.COM
Subject: Re: gang violence 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Sep 93 17:47:10 PDT."
             <9309180047.AA15337@dre.hal.com> 
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 19:15:28 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Jocelyn:
>No, it isn't, but safety issues with respect to raves have often 
>been discussed here. Lest we forget, Gabe was killed at a rave 
>in Santa Cruz by random gun fire.

No, Gabe was killed at a rave in an intentional shooting due to
gang-related violence (they didn't like the party).  They'd started
several fights earlier, if I remember correctly, were ejected after
trying to knife a security guard (but not arrested) and came back 
and shot someone.  IMHO this was a security failure, as these people
should have been arrested and the police should have been asked to
post a guard nearby if they couldn't be arrested.  There was an
obvious threat which was unfortunately not dealt with and Gabe
died.

>I also know many people who have guns, and most of these people are 
>very responsible gun-owners. However, given the large and ever-increasing
>amount of violent crime where guns and gunfire are involved, I am
>committed to finding some middle-ground on the right to bear arms.

>As an aside- most killers aren't psychopaths. In this day and
>age I might be hard pressed to even consider them as sociopaths;
>killing is becoming at the least tolerable if not acceptable
>in our society. Perhaps it's always been this way though.

Killing is in no way acceptable in this society.  The society of
carreer criminals and gang members does not hold the same views
as my society does, though, and they're going around killing.

Don't blame me for them.  I am not them.  You can't take away their
guns, they already get them on the black market.  You can only
convince them to live in peace, deter young people from that
society, and if all else fails put them in jail.

-george



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 19:59:17 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
Message-Id: <9309180259.AA05777@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Womad ticket for sale
To: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 19:59:30 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309170002.AA21935@pilot.njin.net>; from "Sean Casey" at Sep 16, 93 8:02 pm
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Sean Casey said:
> 
> A friend of mine in Davis has a ticket for Womad and can't go. I can
> bring it into town (perhaps YSH?) sometime. Anyone want to buy it? I
> think he said it was $15.
> 
	I don't want to put your honesty into question, mind you..

	The tickets were $10, plus a 3.35 fee if you bought from
TicketBASStard. (Which I did, unfortunately.)
	I *think* they're still on sale, but it would be kind, (IMO)
to buy from Sean's friend, so he doesn't lose money. (It's probably
too late now, anyway.. [I'm behind on my sfraves mail, sorry.. Don't
unsub me Brian! :-)]

-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 20:57:20 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 22:56:38 -0500
From: vile@il.us.swissbank.com (Kurt Vile)
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To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
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Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, mw-raves@engin.umich.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



Where are our intentions going?  what are we evolving into and why; and who as 

members of these list asserting ourselves as.  


What happens to families as time moves on and as the framilarity of each other
and the common ground between the becomes defunct?  How is it that they stay
togther and not disentigrate with the passage of time.

The topic of rave, techno, house, etc....are inherantly limited - 

and by limiting ourselves to these topics we are limiting the true potenitonal
of our community.

We are a community - by joining these lists your are a part of what goes on 

between us - we all have our peeves and hangups - likes and dislikes of the
members of the lists but we have joined in a common ground.

As a community we have the ability to learn, experince, and devlop ourselves as
human beings.  As a community we should not limit ourselves to discussions of
one topic - when their is literally a whole world of information and stuff
out there that thouches each and every one of our lives - and the needs to
be disscussed, explored, expanded upon, learn.

Rave is not only the party. For those of you who belive that rave is only for
8 hours a week on saturday night, you are missing the most beautiful point 

of rave.  Rave is a philosophy, it takes the feeling of unity we experince
in a vibe filled room - and shows us what the world could become - it 

becomes a part of our daily lives and (at least for me) has changed EVERY
aspect of how I live, act, and treat others.

It is nessecary to examine the everyday world within the context of the 

philosophy that we are forming - without that - rave dies - it is no longer
something special - it is something to do, much like doing laundry.

We here are the cutting edge - we have the potentioal to develop a new style
of living - a new relationship with the world that can, and if done
will utlimatley lead to the changing of social structure within the world.

To achive these ends we mustn't limit ourselves - we mustn't stifle
the potentoal we have - but rather examine and devlop
our methods of thinking to better them, and better the world.  Examine,
and then act - working towards a vibe filled world cannot hurt - even if
this community only touches one living soul into betterment then we have 

achived.


this is us, this is now - here is the world - see it change - devlop + 

envelop it into you belive is correct.

--Kurt

P.S. Did you ever think you would see Rabin and Arrifat shake hands?  I wept
when I saw that - a beautiful moment - we have the ability to make more of
these moments happen; we just have to try and move slowly - developing our
philosophy and allowing it to touch those who surround us.


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 22:18:56 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9309180519.AA27447@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Liquid Air
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 22:19:16 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Just a reminder to all you net ravers (and your friends):

I know that Rhythm, Groove Kitchen and Wicked are all happening
this Saturday.  The same people who brought you Fluid Groove,
however, are having a party Saturday, September 18th, starting
at midnight, until we're done.  Audio is by our very own Sound Vision, 
and some of your favorite net.djs will be mixing up the tunes.  

Featured DJs at LIQUID AIR:

Tamara, hot off an awesome SF debut at YSH
Jon Drukman, God's own DJ
Cris, spinning funk, house and retro
Ethan, in his SF debut
Timothy, also in his SF debut
and maybe a very special guest

Outdoors, all ages, strictly donations.  For more info, call our
line: 415-487-8497.  You've seen the rest, come hear some of the
freshest talent in the Bay Area! Experience sound surrounding you
like LIQUID AIR.
-- 
Bryce Ryan -- Specializing in AMBIANCE -- brycer@netcom.com
"The revolution will not be televised, 
 but the proceedings will be available online."  Art McGee

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 22:19:39 1993
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From: raff@oas.olivetti.com (Raffaele Sena)
Message-Id: <9309180519.AA27807@milano.atc.olivetti.com>
Subject: Ravers/Fractals & YSH
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFravers SFravers)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 22:19:27 -0700 (PDT)
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Hi,

	Yesterday night, just before going to YSH, I was reading a computer
	magazine and I found this article presenting another fractal program.

	I started reading and this is what I found:

		BACK TO THE FUTURE

		It is a little known fact that "techno" is actually
		"disco" converted to hexadecimal and spelled backwards.
		Think about it. It makes sense when one realizes that
		the ravers of today's MTV culture are yesterday's
		LSD-mutated babies. Platform shoes, bell-bottoms, and the 
		center part: our twentysomethings are wreaking a revenge
		that could only be conceived in the 70's.

		FracTunes, "The 21st century Light Organ", is the software
		embodiment of the current cultural drift back to the
		spangled decade. But with a 90's twist: in the 70's neither
		personal computers nor fractal geometry yet mattered.
		Leave it to rEvolutionary Software to make up for history's
		minor deprivations by creating "a light organ for the
		twentyfirst century".

						-- Anonymous --


	So, anybody want to write the algorithm to convert
	"disco" to "techno" and "LSD" to "MTV" ?


	Anyway, does any of you know anything more about this program ?
	It seems pretty cool. The article says that it use sound files
	(or MIDI files) as a base to "animate" a fractal or other 
	images. I will try to get more info about it and I'll let you know.



	YSH: what else I can say... I keep going and I keep enjoing it.
	I really liked the final part of DRC and the full set of Tamara.
	I couldn't rest for more than a few minutes. Yesterday Rebecca was
	to housy for me ( "techno" can be the transformation of "disco" but
	I still DON'T like "disco" :-)


So, hoping to see you around this weekend...

Ciao,
	Raffaele

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Raffaele Sena - Olivetti ATC - Cupertino, CA
	Phone: +1-408-366-3542
	Fax:   +1-408-366-3606
	E-Mail: raff@atc.olivetti.com

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 23:29:53 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309171916.AA04870@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Manilow (sp?)  In the bay area!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hello,

Myself and about six other sick puppies are going to see Barry Manilow tonight
 at the Shoreline!  Wish me luck!  (I may need it!)

Chris

(This text composed by voice)

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 23:30:14 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309171933.AA04905@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: jsl@netcom.com, phred@well.sf.ca.us, roy@harlequin.co.uk
Subject: Re:  SF City Hall & the homeless
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



The amount of money San Francisco puts into services for the homeless,
and in repressing the homeless, John S. Lee, is far less than the amount
San Francisco puts into tax holidays and special services for the
big downtown office developers.

Now let's talk about *priorities*, dig?

--------

 you got that right!

Chris

(This text composed by voice)

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 23:30:16 1993
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 12:22:21 PDT
From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309171922.AA04874@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: jsl@netcom.com, roy@harlequin.co.uk
Subject: Re:  Subcultura majora
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


"People must lower their expectations of this society
(USA), and face the fact that the boom of the 50's that allowed great
prosperity may not happen again for some time."  So in other words, forget
about owning a home,forget about retirement (since those 40 somethings+ 
will drain SSecurity by the time WE are all recipients), and accept the
fact that you may have to take a low paying job, DESPITE your education.

--------

 they are attempting to implement corporate fascism!  It has been said
 that this is one of the tenets of the so-called new world order!  Some
 others of course, said "you're paranoid".

-=Jack=-

  "now you're lookin' back...
   all dogs must chase the cat"

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 23:30:25 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309171944.AA04920@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu, sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re:  SF Sherriff comes out for Legalization, and 2 1200's for $600.
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 and a war that is,
ultimately, almost solely waged against minority Americans,"
------------

 truth from the other side, no less!

-=Jack=-

  "now you're lookin' back...
   all dogs must chase the cat"


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 23:30:37 1993
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From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309171959.AA04963@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: jsl@netcom.com, mike_romo@quickmail.apple.com
Subject: Re: Fresh Friday
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The Bay
Area has, by far, some of the greatest talent to choose from.
--------

Damnstraight!  I was *shocked* by the (high) quality of the DJ's who
submitted tapes for the Az. thing I have been planning.  So much so
that I abandoned hiring "name" talent as it just wasn't necessary!
(also because while the term "San Francisco" sells in AZ., they (most) don't
know the names of "famous SF DJ's", so the draw is probably the same with
or without name DJ's....of course that is NOT TRUE here at home where
as was mentioned, for ex., the wicked  scene rightfully draws pretty
damn well....).  More power to the little folks...

ObCornyQuote:

"I - I  - I love everyday people...."


*

[Bar - RY!, Bar - RY! (sic)]

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 17 23:40:56 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
Message-Id: <9309180641.AA08678@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: WOMAD & Drumming in Santa Cruz
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 23:41:19 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	I was wondering if anyone in the north bay area was planning
on heading to WOMAD and then after that going to Arthur's *huge*
drumming fest in Sana Cruz, and returning to the city that night?
	If someone would be able to give me a ride from
WOMAD->Drumming->BART(or some other relatively convenient way of
getting back to Berkeley the same night) I'd appreciate it, *GREATLY*.

	Thanks,
-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com


From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 00:58:00 1993
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 03:55:36 EDT
From: abbe@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (John C. Abbe aka Rademir)
Message-Id: <9309180755.AA16126@bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
To: dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  Why we never end up working less
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Anyone who wants to explore these issue in a group may e interested in
a 'class' that a friend of mine is offering:

-=> Creating A Life That Makes More Sense <=-

five Mondays 7pm-9:15pm, October 4 - November 1
It will meet in a home just east of Ashby BART

Some stuff paraphrased from the flyer:
*Not* about any particular political or spiritual ideology.
Participants will be using a variety of learning techniques
(talking circles, journal-writing, brief lectures, exercises,
and, of course, your own life :-)

In the class everyone will work on:
* Developing an outer life rich with intimacy, good people, community and
  commitment--that balances with an deep inner life of connection to self,
  nature, and spirit.
* Creating an alive, satisfying and non-overwhelming
  information/media environment
* Creating paid work and paying the bills (including having bills you
  want to pay :-)
* Changing the world.

The teacher is Karen Mercer. She's worked on personal and social change
for 25 years, here and around the world. She also has a masters in
Social Work, has written published articles, and has been involved
in a variety of therapeutic models. She has lived communally most of her
life and been involved in other community-building efforts. Nature is
a major source of personal energy and clarity in her life.
[She's also a really neat, *very* open person --John's addition]

--------============>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<============--------

The flyer also has unfortunately-irreproducible word balloon edited
imags of Calvin Hobbes and Winnie the Pooh. Anyway, the number to call
if intersted is 510-658-1307. I know that she's hoping to finish admitting
people Real Soon Now so i would call this wekend if you're interested.

I just typed this in a hurry, so all transcription errors are my fault,
mea culpa, mea culpa.

Peace, love, etc.,
-Johnnie

p.s. Yes, I finally went to my first rave(let) Thursday night, YSH!
I'll post how it was soon soon soon...

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 14:23:58 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9309182124.AA13279@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Liquid Air for Real
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 14:24:19 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Well, at the prompting of the Fluid Groove posse, i want to remind you 
all that Liquid Air is really happening tonight. I know some of you are
going to Wicked or Groove Kitchen, but if you want some renegade action
in addition to our more established cousins, come on down to Liquid
Air.  The site is 24th and Illinois, our old reliable.  We will have 
parking area lookouts to help avoid any incidents there and to watch
out for you and your possessions while you're partying. Sound will
be provided by our very own Sound Vision, so I hope to see you all
at Liquid Air, even if you just stop in to say hi! Thanks!
-- 
Bryce Ryan -- Specializing in AMBIANCE -- brycer@netcom.com
"The revolution will not be televised, 
 but the proceedings will be available online."  Art McGee

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 14:30:47 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309182131.AA13806@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: WOMAD
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, mcg@netcom.com
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 14:31:08 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

So, where will the SFR posse be?  Vanessa and I (plus hopefully
gunther) will be there as early as possible.  Vanessa will be headed
for Peter Gabriel, whilst I will beeline for Jah Wobble and Stereo
MC's.  Prolly James, too.  We should all have a central location. :-)

-H-


-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey, DoD #0944				   howard@netcom.com
             "I am the Barney of Radio."  -- Rush Limbaugh      
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 14:35:21 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309182135.AA14210@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: WOMAD Chill-out :-)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 14:35:43 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Forgot to mention, between WOMAD and the various 'official' womad
after parties, anyone who wants can follow me to casa H&G to sample
our latest creation, Howard and Gunther's India Pale Ale.  Hurry,
quantities are limited (only about 1 case). :-)

-H-


-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey, DoD #0944				   howard@netcom.com
             "I am the Barney of Radio."  -- Rush Limbaugh      
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 14:42:46 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 14:42:39 -0700
In-Reply-To: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
       "Liquid Air for Real" (Sep 18,  2:24pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Liquid Air for Real
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

BTW, (in case you lost your calendar)  the DJ's will be Tamara (sfraver!),
Jon Drukman (sfraver!), Cris, Ethan (yet another sfraver! :) and possibly a 
few surprise guests, possibly also SFRavers :)  The phone # is 415-487-
8497.....see everyone there!

        Brian

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 16:18:55 1993
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 15:48:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Reply-To: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: susie parties at city hall
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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well....i did some researchin' yesterday at city hall with the help of
halinans office...(and did some reading of the police code)

first of all i belive the first action to take would be to call the other
two memebers of the committee (Health Public Safety & Environment) and
ttell (or fax them) that ... 

"I support Terence Hallinan's amendment to allow 18 year olds to dance
after 2 a.m..


Supervisor Susan Leal 415 554 6644
Supervisor Kevin Shelley 415 544 4005

this is IMPORTANT!  we must be able to moblilize lots o people

it must first be passed through this committee...sooo that means we
need people to show up at the committee meeting...i will post about
this....(we also need people to bring posters) the tentative date for
this is sept 28 at 10 am either in chambers or room 228.

i was wondering if we could bring the sfr banner???? brian???

also if you do go to the meeting it is important to sign in...also i
believe that people (ie citizens) can speak but i dont' know how this
works...but i will find out...maybe even some 18-21 articulate person
could speak on behalf of there peers????

now...here is the the text that is trying to be amended...

Amending artical 15.2 of the San Francisco police code by amending
section 1070.16 thereof to permit persons over 18 to enter, be, or
remain in premises that are operated as cabarets.

     Be it ordained by the People of the City and County of San Francisco:

     Section 1.  Artical 15.2 of the San Francisco Police Code is hereby
amended by amending Section 1070.16 thereof to read as follows:

     Sec. 1070.16  MINORS.  Exept as provided in this section no persons
under 21 years of age shall enter, be, or remain in or on any premises
operated as a cabaret.  A licensee shall notlpermit such a person to enter,
be, or remain in or on any such premises except on Friday and Saturday
nights there shall be a one-half hour grace period, until 2:30 a.m., for
the departure from cabarets of persons 18 to 21 years of age.

now this is the amendment that is being tagged on to the end of this...

Notwithstanding the other provisions of this Section, persons between the
ages of 18 and 21 may enter, be, or remain in or on premises operated as a
cabaret. 

____________________________________________________________________________

does anyone want to write any of the newspapers, help circulate petitions,
or etc....(basically i am asking for help)

call me at 415 621 7185

also here is the sign in sheet for the meeting of people who came to
oppose (and some even spoke out against the amendment)

Oppose to Cabaret Amendment

SFPD

Commander Dennis Martel
Captain Barry Johnson
Sgt. Steve Bosshand (sp?)
(i wonder if they came to oppose it on city dollars time or if they
came to oppose it cuz they just dont like young people?)

Citizens

Debbie Maples (Emporium)
John Williams (Pickwick Hotel)
Charles Bolton (Northwest Bernal Action)
Carolyn Diamond (Market Street Association)
Bill Marotta (Neighbors United)
Victor Valentti
John Drum
Sandy Burris
Stacz Sadowiski
Joseph Brenner

(and now for the good guys/gals)

those in FAVOR

Laurence Murray (i believe he is the lawyer representing various clubs)
Mark Romeo
Martin O'Brien
Marsha Garland
Kevin Banks
Walter Pastori
Hector Cardenas
Jordan Wells
Gerry Sladewski
Virgina Homish (fashion center)
John Buck
Gary Hicks
Marcello Capolbo

(sorry if there are any mispellings...hehehhe)

i have tons more interesting facts...like the legal definintions and laws
for "entertainment", "Cabarets", and "dance halls"

also one really interesting note...for future battles...
*** i believe that state law defines a minor as 18 but san francisco law
defines it a plethora of ways...hmmmmm unclear? do i see conflict (: ?

partyon...susie (:












From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 17:26:52 1993
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From: hypermark@aol.com
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Reply-To: <hypermark@aol.com>
Message-Id: <9309182023.tn50708@aol.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 20:23:10 EDT
Subject: Re: WOMAD & Lunch
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

This may be kind of a silly question but does anyone know whether there is
any limitations in terms of bringing in a packed lunch (for security
reasons).  Just wondering.

HyperMark@aol.com

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 17:52:21 1993
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From: sameer@netcom.com (Sameer Parekh)
Message-Id: <9309190052.AA10616@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drumming in SC
To: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 17:52:42 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309181850.AA12706@netcom.netcom.com>; from "Larry Ching" at Sep 18, 93 11:50 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Larry Ching said:
> 
> 
> Hello Sameer -
> 
>  Could you either email me or post on sfraves more info about this
> Santa Cruz drum thing? Where and when? Is it too late now?
> 
	It's in Santa Cruz, Sunday at 6 until sunset. (Not very long,
I know. . .) It's this guy who teaches drumming doing his
"advertising". He and some cohorts apparently set up drumming on the
beach a little while before the scheduled time with a small drum
circle, and then as people arrive it grows to about 100-150 people.
(That's what I heard at least.)
	If someone could give me a ride, *please* call me at
510-643-1741, or if no one's there or the phone is busy, page
me@510-321-1014, and put in the additional numbers, "7283" (The v-rave
port number.."RAVE" on a phone.")

Thanks,
-- 
Sameer
sameer@netcom.com

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 19:07:20 1993
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From: Robert Campanell <robcamp@well.sf.ca.us>
To: nacb@gwuvm.gwu.edu, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Subject: "Cyberia" Sept. U Network episode
Message-Id: <93Sep18.190510pdt.14168-4@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Sat, 18 Sep 1993 19:05:01 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I just finished editing an episode for "Cyberia."  I'm still
putting together the staff, so there won't be the usual hostess
and virtual worlds.   It's a clip show featuring the best
animations that appeared in the 90-91 season.  Here's the lineup
for the September U Network feed.  


C O M P U T E R   A N I M A T I O N S


"Dirty Power" from Robert Lurye at Ohio State
    
     One of the most sensual computer animation ever done.

"More Bells and Whistles" from Wayne Lytle at Cornell

     MIDI-driven computer graphic objects perform in a rock band. 
     Lytle created some very inventive software for this  one.

"Venus and Milo" from Donna Cox at University of Illinois

     A janitor get careless in an art gallery

"Broken Heart" from Joan Staveley at Ohio State

     Award winning piece.  One of the best fine arts computer    
     animation.

"The frog who wanted to be as big as a cow" by Isabelle Bourdin
at Sheridan College

     Amphibian imagination.

"Columbus on the Edge" at William Patterson College

	Student group work tells the real Christopher Columbus     
     story.

"Fuzzy Lust" by Barbara McAleese at Rutgers - Camden

     Sometimes watching TV can be exciting

"Bad Chair" by Ted MacLeod at Sheridan College

     Living room furniture terrorism.

"Camera Work" at William Patterson College

     Student group work about darkroom dreams.

"Cuisine Art" by Leo O'Young at Sheridan College

     The squash family spend a day at the art museum.


T E C H N O   M U S I C   V I D E O


"House of God" by DHS;  Directed by Ben Stokes

     Computer animation video from this "classic" techno song.  I
     am excited about the House of God.

"Holofonic Remix" by DHS; Directed by Ben Stokes

      Disaster film samples over a techno track.

----------------------------------------------------------------
|                        "C Y B E R I A"                       |
|             Experience Reality in a Virtual World            |
----------------------------------------------------------------
|Robert Campanell                  |Explicit                   |
|Producer, "Cyberia"               |2020 Pennsylvania Ave. NW  |
|George Washington University      |Suite 430                  |
|Internet: robcamp@well.sf.ca.us   |Washington, DC  20006      |
----------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 19:42:37 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309190234.AA01422@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: City Hall
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



	This is sticking our neck out but maybe we should
	descreetly invite people from city hall to our SFR event
	in GG park.  It's in the daytime, it's safe and we are playing
	by the rules.  Maybe they will see the light!


			-G

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 20:27:08 1993
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Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 23:27:02 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309190327.AA00327@pilot.njin.net>
To: jocelyn@hal.com (Jocelyn Cordell)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: gang violence
In-Reply-To: <9309180047.AA15337@dre.hal.com>
References: <9309180047.AA15337@dre.hal.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The reason gun rights were written in the constitution were not for
the firing range or hunting. This is a misconception a lot of people
seem to have, and the justification a lot of them seem to have for
wanting to limit the ownership of so-called "assault" weapons.

The reason it is in the constitution is to provide a check on the
government's power. To acknowledge that the citizens may have to
revolt if the government were at some future time to get wildly out of
control.

Although we've been pretty lucky in that aspect, other countries have
not. I don't think it's a given in this day and age by any means.

As I told someone else on here, I am all for disarming the
populace--all of them--if one also disarms the government. Until then,
I believe there has got to be a balance, and that's why the right was
put on paper.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 21:48:08 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309190219.AA03783@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, uunet!hal.com!jocelyn@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: gang violence
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sorta nice ideas about guns Jocelyn but this would increase the cost by a
lot and would be punishing the responsible gun owners and again, the outlaws
would still have guns.  The people  who would follow your rules are the
people who are  already responsible enough to own guns and generaly not kill
people with them.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 22:12:21 1993
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From: dionf@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Francois Dion)
Message-Id: <9309190510.AA01117@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Re: gang violence
To: winston@lurnix.com (Mark Guthrie)
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1993 01:10:36 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309190219.AA03783@cassy.lurnix.com> from "Mark Guthrie" at Sep 18, 93 07:19:42 pm
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Beyond the ultraworld of Mark Guthrie:
> 
> The people  who would follow your rules are the
> people who are  already responsible enough to own guns and generaly not kill
> people with them.

Just a little note: in Canada we have better gun control (still far from what
it should really be) and even if the population is roughly 1/10th of the US,
the death caused by bullets is far less than 1/100th. I dont see why gun
control would cause anyone with a good use of a gun any prejudice.

I didn't think there would have been people against that idea in the raver
community.

Ciao,
-- 
Francois Dion
    '  _   _   _ 
 CISM (_) (_)  _) FM       Montreal , Canada       Email: CISM@ERE.UMontreal.CA
      (_)  / . _)             10000 Watts          Telephone no: (514) 343-7511
_______________________________________________________________________________
Audio-C-DJ-Fractals-Future-Label-Multimedia-Music-Radio-Rave-Video-VR-Volvo-...



From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 18 23:18:13 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309190618.AA14671@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: gang violence
To: dionf@ere.umontreal.ca (Francois Dion)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 23:18:22 PDT
Cc: winston@lurnix.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309190510.AA01117@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>; from "Francois Dion" at Sep 19, 93 1:10 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Francois Dion sez:
> 
> I didn't think there would have been people against that idea in the raver
> community.
> 

Francois,
	I don't think you will find too many NRA lobbyers in the rave
scene, but there are quite a few (including myself) people who resent
any kind of government attempt to restrict what a person may do by
coming up with these meddlesome laws.  The mandatory minimum
sentencing for drug convictions is another manifestation of the same
problem.

Actually, personally I could care less what gun control laws there are,
because if I ever would want a gun (which I can't picture...at this
point) I would just obtain one illegally, if some silly law stood in
my way.

-H-



-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey, DoD #0944				   howard@netcom.com
             "I am the Barney of Radio."  -- Rush Limbaugh      
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 01:55:02 1993
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 01:54:57 -0700
Message-Id: <9309200854.AA16919@si.ucsc.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Subject: liquid air
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


	was a great little party... came with a possee of about
	10 sfraves (or at least geeks) and one newbie raver.

	the free lollies were awesome, the free odwalla was
	*amazing*.

	and it was good to finallly see who some more of you 
	really are... and to realize that you know who some
	of you are dating ;)


	lets do it again


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 07:44:51 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309201445.AA16035@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: liquid air
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 7:45:13 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9309200854.AA16919@si.ucsc.edu>; from "illuminated iconoclast" at Sep 20, 93 1:54 am
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

RE: Liquid Air 
 I had a great time too , even though I had to leave early. The sound system
was excellent , and the music playing through it was good too! Too bad
I couldn't stick around for more of Timothy's set - he started off real
strong!  And I enjoyed Tamara's and Jon's sets as well.

 I'm really looking forward to the next one!

				Larry Ching/larryc@netcom.com
PS - I was the guy with the red longshoremen's wool cap and the checkered
Goofy t-shirt.  

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 07:47:02 1993
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From: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
Message-Id: <9309201443.AA27580@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING: More Historical "Facts"
To: roy@harlequin.co.uk (Roy Badami)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 03:08:29 -0600 (MDT)
Cc: hart@ntmtv.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <6086.9309161224@wundt.harlequin.co.uk> from "Roy Badami" at Sep 16, 93 01:24:01 pm
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> Thanks for typing in the quote, Brian.  I didn't have my copy of
> Sauders' book to hand.  I should point out, however, that this quote
> is *not* attributed to Saunders, as your extract implies (I forget who
> it actually was).

Oooops... How right you are.  It's by Paul Staines, "former member of the
radical right Committee for a Free Britain."  (*That* quote *is* by
Saunders. :)


-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 07:47:08 1993
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From: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
Message-Id: <9309201444.AA27596@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: tamara@ysh.taz.fs.ca.us
To: sameer@netcom.com
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 19:21:52 -0600 (MDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers)
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> 	I had a *wonerful* time last night. Apparently Tamara was
> really pissed that she messed up a lot, but I sure didn't notice. I
> loved it.

Well, I wouldn't say she was "pissed', maybe just that she's her own worst
critic. :)  She was just too busy spinning to notice all the people dancing
and groovin' to the vibe she was laying down.  :)


-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 09:19:34 1993
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From: Sue Raisty  <raisty@berlioz.nsc.com>
To: dionf@ere.umontreal.ca
Cc: winston@lurnix.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Francois Dion's message of Sun, 19 Sep 1993 01:10:36 -0400 (EDT) <9309190510.AA01117@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: gang violence
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Francois Dion said:
--> than 1/100th. I dont see why gun control would cause anyone with a
--> good use of a gun any prejudice.

--> I didn't think there would have been people against that idea in
--> the raver community.

And I honestly didn't think there would be people in favor of letting
the government take away our liberties in the raver community.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 09:40:49 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 17:39:03 BST
Message-Id: <12416.9309201639@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: raisty@berlioz.nsc.com
Cc: dionf@ere.umontreal.ca, winston@lurnix.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Sue Raisty 's message of Mon, 20 Sep 93 09:19:20 PDT <9309201619.AA25018@berlioz.nsc.com>
Subject: Re: gang violence
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  Sue> Francois Dion said:
--> than 1/100th. I dont see why gun control would cause anyone with a
--> good use of a gun any prejudice.

--> I didn't think there would have been people against that idea in
--> the raver community.

  Sue> And I honestly didn't think there would be people in favor of letting
  Sue> the government take away our liberties in the raver community.


Having been brought up in a non-gun owning society, I don't see being
denied the liberty to own a killing machine as being very different
from being denied the right to kill people....

Actually, I have fired a .35 magnum (at a target).  I might even do it
again some day...

	Cosmic

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 10:05:45 1993
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 10:06:09 -0700
From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309201706.AA25974@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Universe party .... a private one I attended
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Greetings...   I have some enlightening info from those producers of
the Universe Rave that was supposed to happen this last weekend.   I attended
a private party with those folks and I think I know ONE reason why they
backed out,  based on a conversation I had with Rob,  one of the main
producers.    One main reason is of course the financial problems,  but
more than that is the acceptance of the Calif scene to the much faster
"hard core" and "Acid trance" sets put on by the Brits..   

At the party,  I got a chance to dance to the extremly fast "Hard core"
sets typical of Universe type raves,  and WOW!!   It was totally energizing,
but in all reality,  I don't (Nor do the Universe folks) think that Calif
ravers are ready for this.   I find it hard to go back to the 120 BPM
Techno,  but now I have adopted new dance styles to acommodate both.

The Hard core sets are lot shorter than the sets layed down by our local
DJ's,  and are broken up by rapping over the music.   Then the pace changes
to a lower pace,  and gradually moves upwards again to a totally energetic
climax.   A TOTALLY DIFFERENT scene.

I met some othe ravers who managed to get into the party comment that it
was too fast for them,   and when the real fast stuff came on,  nobody
from that group was dancing.   But another reason was that the previous 
night a more public party was held at the same spot put on by the Universe
people (More public),  and people were burned out because of that party.

I'm sorry I missed Fluid Groove,  I sorta wanted to go to that (Or Wicked
or GK),   but at $20 a pop,  one can only afford to go to just ONE of
those parties.   Sorry for not attending...

One other thing,  at that party,  a few bozo's tried to break into the
party (which was private)  and really made an ass of themselves.   Don't
know if they were ravers or local Santa Cruz folks trying to crash it.
They broke Everett's (the owner of the place) windows,  but the SC police was
called and they agreed to drive by a few times.   After that,  things went smoothly
and the music was provided by good quality recordings of the UK event that
took place early in the summer.

It is the Universe folks plan to gradually break the Calif rave scene into 
the faster stuff on a more gradual basis by holding future parties gradually 
increasing the tempo to the usual 190 BPM "Hard core" tempo.  US DJ's take
note...   Try to be more diverse,   up the tempo ocassionally,  and vary the
music,  as I think this will soon be the future trend.

By the way WOMAD was great!!  Don't have time now to do a report,  I'm sure
others may make one,   Saw a FEW raver friends there,  but couldn't find the
people I wanted to find (Obviously because there were 100,000 people there).

I left after the 2nd encore by Gabrial,  had NO problems with traffic because
I parked in advantagious location (NORTH of the park and close to the
101 GG Bridge access).

Cheers
CC

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 10:37:48 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309201737.AA20431@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, crunch@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Universe party .... a private one I attended
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

CC reports:
> It is the Universe folks plan to gradually break the Calif rave scene into 
> the faster stuff on a more gradual basis by holding future parties gradually 
> increasing the tempo to the usual 190 BPM "Hard core" tempo.  US DJ's take
> note...   Try to be more diverse,   up the tempo ocassionally,  and vary the
> music,  as I think this will soon be the future trend.

If the Universe compilation CD is any example of what they have in store
for us, than I for one, can't wait. 

- leg of eel

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 10:54:00 1993
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 10:55:54 -0800
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
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Subject: Re: liquid air
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Had a really good time there too. Was a little cold, but between a new
jacket I love (I was the boy in the grey vinyl coat) and dancing, it was
alright. This was basically my first rave(except for some southwest
attempts at it), and thought it was a nice intro, I thought. Good
atmosphere, and watching the sun rise in the morning had a certain sense of
accomplishment attached (esp. considering the amount I have been sleeping
lately...)

All the people spinning were great- I thought Tamara was esp. good.

And the juice and grapes were a wonderful touch!


jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 10:57:07 1993
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 13:56:03 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309201756.AA18708@pilot.njin.net>
To: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Cc: dionf@ere.umontreal.ca, raisty@berlioz.nsc.com,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, winston@lurnix.com
Subject: Re: gang violence
In-Reply-To: <12416.9309201639@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
References: <12416.9309201639@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
	<9309201619.AA25018@berlioz.nsc.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Roy Badami writes:
 > Having been brought up in a non-gun owning society, I don't see being
 > denied the liberty to own a killing machine as being very different
 > from being denied the right to kill people....

One has the right to kill people in certain situations.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 11:00:43 1993
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From: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 11:00:33 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: fast music and free parties
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Crunch says (about Universe):

>but more than that is the acceptance of the Calif scene to the much faster
>"hard core" and "Acid trance" sets put on by the Brits..   

This is kinda funny when you think that Jeno, Markie, Garth, and Martin
(among others) are all British too, and seem to form a backbone (with
Wicked and Basics/Gathering) in the SF scene.

But anyway, it looks like the East Coast scene is much closer to the 
European scene in terms of acceptance of high bpm music.  However, when
I was out in SF August/September, I was playing music from 130 to 160, and
people were dancing.  Like the Universe crowd, I was pretty worried no one
would like it, but once I got started enough people enjoyed it that it
didn't seem to be a problem.  Now of course, I wasn't investing hundreds
of thousands of dollars into throwing a huge party . . . but the point is that
contrary to my previous beliefs and apprehensions, there IS an audience for
hardcore/hardtrance/acidtrance in San Francisco.

But hey, if Universe wants to pull out then that's their call -- that
leaves *me* to take care of you all . .  you are MINE, all MINE (insert
maniacal laughter and about 100 smileys here).

I heard DRC was putting down some pretty blistering stuff at the last YSH,
and that it was successful.  Maybe the higher-bpm "market" is emerging and 
Universe needs to look around a bit to make sure they aren't throwing the baby 
out with the bathwater.  But then again, when throwing a party as big and
expensive as Universe/UK was, financial considerations become HIGHLY
important, so it gets harder to blaze new ground for fear of loosing money.
Let's hear it for smaller FREE parties where we can do what we want, when
we want, without fear of ending up in Bankruptcy Court. :-)

>but in all reality,  I don't (Nor do the Universe folks) think that Calif
>ravers are ready for this.   

After my experiences in August, I don't believe this is the case.  No,
the majority of the scene might not go for it, but it seems NO ONE is
providing the alternative for the definite number of people who tried it
and liked it either on journeys East or when I was out there.

>I'm sorry I missed Fluid Groove,  I sorta wanted to go to that (Or Wicked
>or GK),   but at $20 a pop,  one can only afford to go to just ONE of
>those parties.   Sorry for not attending...

Lack of money is a bad excuse for missing Fluid Grooves:  it was free (Bryce 
asked for donations to cover his and Ethan's costs, but no one was being 
turned away for financial considerations.)

>It is the Universe folks plan to gradually break the Calif rave scene into 
>the faster stuff on a more gradual basis by holding future parties gradually 
>increasing the tempo to the usual 190 BPM "Hard core" tempo.  

190 bpm?  Oh gack, I forgot that in the UK they call "hardcore" what we 
call "breakbeat."  Right now the big thing there is what they call "darkness"
which is hyper-fast breakbeat with lots eerie samples and minor keys and 
the like.  Some of it clocks in at 210 bpm.  In the US we use the term
"hardcore" to refer to the 150-170 4/4 Dutch/German/Belgian/Brooklyn-style 
hardcore.  This hardcore is slowing down (most records around 160 rather
than 180 like last summer) and getting trancier (not as much dissonance,
screaming, and distortion as last summer).

>US DJ's take
>note...   Try to be more diverse,   up the tempo ocassionally,  and vary the
>music,  as I think this will soon be the future trend.

Acutally, the future trend depends on where you are.  In SF the music might
get harder . . . out East it's getting housier and slower . . . in Toronto
the "darkness breakbeat" is getting hugely popular.  I think the only thing
you can really ask for is for DJs to buy what they like, what really turns
them on, and for dancers and small party organizers to give DJs they've never 
heard of a chance.

For all those craving a bit of very odd acidtrance, mixed up with some 
hardtrance and hardcore come to then NEXT Fluid Grooves/Liquid Air party, 
to be held October 15th.  I just got my plane tickets today, so I will be 
there with a pile of new records, many of which blur the lines between 
house/tribal/trance/acid/hardcore/ambient.  As always, it will be a FREE 
event, but the organizers ask for donations because, after all, lollipops, 
speakers, U-Haul trucks, and gasoline don't grow on trees.

See you then!

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 11:15:54 1993
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 19:07:46 +0100 (BST)
From: Greg Eden <G.L.Eden@newcastle.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: gang violence
To: Sean Casey <csc@pilot.njin.net>
Cc: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>, dionf@ere.umontreal.ca,
        raisty@berlioz.nsc.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        winston@lurnix.com
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


On Mon, 20 Sep 1993, Sean Casey wrote:

> Roy Badami writes:
>  > Having been brought up in a non-gun owning society, I don't see being
>  > denied the liberty to own a killing machine as being very different
>  > from being denied the right to kill people....
> 
> One has the right to kill people in certain situations.

Fair enough in self-defence, but the whole point is that if you control
guns you are a *LOT* less likely to have people going round blowing each
other away. I have never seen a handgun/rifle and don't think my life
would be worth less if I never did.

Guns make killing too easy and remote.

I'd like to hear rational argument otherwise. 

greggy303

3030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303
303     Greg Eden, Physics Department          |     g.l.eden@ncl.ac.uk     303
303 Herschel Building, University of Newcastle |303 Forever. Long live Acid!303

3030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303 




From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 11:51:11 1993
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 11:51:04 PDT
From: sap@lucid.com (Synthia Petroka)
Message-Id: <9309201851.AA00987@laura-palmer.lucid.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject:  False alarm about headlights and gangs
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Per Mercury News, 9/18/93:


COPS TRY TO ARREST RUMOR OF GANG RITE 

CHILLING REPORT OF INITIATION CALLED `FOLKLORE BY FAX' 

By KIM BOATMAN 
Mercury News Staff Writer

A particularly chilling rumor with all the earmarks of an urban 
legend is racing through Silicon Valley, testimony to both the 
speed of electronic communication and our increasing fear of 
violence.

Despite reassurances from San Jose police that the rumor is baseless, 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the tales about a new type of crime used to initiate San Jose gang 
members have been fueled to a full-fledged wildfire in the past two 
weeks.

The warning has spread, via electronic mail, faxes and word of mouth, 
to companies such as Sun Microsystems and Amdahl Corp. to 
Independence High School, to Alexian Brothers Hospital, to 
concerned citizen Joe Najar's cousin's friend's cousin.

Police have been deluged with phone calls. However, the rumor seemed 
to recede a bit Friday with a new batch of electronic mail messages 
saying the warning isn't legitimate. And it turns out the rumor 
isn't even original.

``It's very hot in Chicago right now,'' said folklorist Jan Harold 
Brunvand, a University of Utah professor who has written five books 
about urban legends. ``It actually popped up in Memphis first.

``Somebody's just trying to cause a panic. This (gang-related rumors) 
might be replacing the satanic panic.''

The Mercury News is not revealing specifics because of law 
enforcement concerns about copycats. But the rumor involves a 
lethal gang initiation that targets motorists.

The rumor took the same form in Memphis, Tenn., last month and in 
Chicago earlier this month, with a warning supposedly coming from 
local police departments. A Memphis police spokesman said Friday 
the unfounded rumor has spread to two other Tennessee cities, 
Knoxville and Chattanooga.

The crime depicted in the phony report hasn't occurred in San Jose, 
said police Lt. Daniel Ortega of the department's gang unit. His 
office alone has fielded more than 50 calls in the past few days 
>from companies and private citizens, taking time that might be 
devoted to ``pro-active'' work.

The police have sent letters to many businesses asking that they post 
the department's response.

``This is something we have to respond to,'' Ortega said. ``We're 
trying to put out a fire the best way we can without adding to it.''

As these tales usually do, the rumor took on new dimensions as it 
spread. One electronic mail message Thursday attributed the warning 
to an Independence High history teacher and said a niece's 
boyfriend's mother who works at Alexian Brothers Hospital knew of 
four victims who had been treated in the hospital's emergency room. 
But there have been no victims reported.

Copies of the ``warning,'' containing misspelled words and typed on 
blank paper with no official letterhead, had been posted in some 
wards. Najar, the concerned citizen, said he has been told by 
Alexian employees that police posted the warnings. And he remains 
unconvinced about the urban legend nature of the rumor.

But Supervisor of Nurses Marsha Haney said Friday no one at Alexian 
Brothers knows how the report came into the hospital.

Independence High Principal John Sellarole, who heard about the ties 
to his school when his wife brought home an electronic mail memo, 
also is working to dispel the rumor after finding no evidence of 
its veracity. Sellarole went so far as to ask one company to 
distribute his name and phone number over an electronic bulletin 
board.

When officials talk about an information superhighway, they probably 
don't think of traffic in terms of Waco, Texas, jokes and urban 
legends. But the gang initiation rumor proliferated on Internet, a 
global computer network, among others.

``One guy got it here and immediately posted it. A minute after he 
got it, the other 18 of us got it,'' said Richard Hansen, president 
of Silicon Engineering Inc. in Scotts Valley. ``If that happens in 
a place like Sun or Silicon Graphics, a thousand people could be 
notified in the space of a couple of minutes.''

Hansen said hoaxes are rare on Internet. But high-tech communications 
networks are the frequent vehicle for what passes for folk culture 
these days.

``The folklore that is being created has an almost instant 
transition,'' said Alan Dundes, a University of California, 
Berkeley professor of anthropology and folklore. ``I call it 
folklore by fax.''

And the most current urban legends reflect the troubles that plague 
our society. One, too graphic for public consumption, plays on 
fears about AIDS, foreign travel and foreigners.

Some new legends are just plain strange, such as the traveling 
businessman who meets a woman and later wakes up in a hotel room to 
find himself on bloodied sheets and with a kidney missing, the 
victim of a ring of organ thieves.

The gang initiation rumor might have its origins in the violence 
against tourists in Florida or in the growing concern about gang 
activities, Dundes said.

``It is reflective of a fear of teen-agers or young toughs,'' he 
said. `` . . . There is certainly a perception that teen-agers are 
dangerous.''


Mercury News Staff Writer Bill Romano contributed to this report.

MERCURY CENTER ID: me25641r


Transmitted:  93-09-18 05:55:55 EDT



From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 12:09:41 1993
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 11:47:31 PDT
From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309201847.AA00289@jimi.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Fast technoCap. Crunch says:
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 I don't (Nor do the Universe folks) think that Calif
ravers are ready for this.

(about fast techno)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I  don't mean to single you out John, but this is just a good example.  It's
annoying to me when people (especialy East coasters) think that just because
we (cali people) don't generaly play fast hardcore at our raves that were
ignorant to it,  not ready for it, have never experienced it, don't like it,
etc.  I happen to love it but I can't influence the taste of all our local
popular djs.  I think a lot of people out here are the same, too.  I just
think this is a strong mis-conception that even some of us have about ourselves,i.e., comments similar to:  I can't wait to go to the east coast or for this
east coast dj to come out here and show us some "real east coast techno", as ifit all hails from out there or something and you can't get it at record stores
around here.  We don't go around saying:  Ya, we'll send John D. out there to
show them what "real SF tibal/trance" is all about, because we know better.
We don't make the shit here exclusivley, it's just that our local DJs and
dancers tend to favour it but we know it gets heard and played and made
elsewhere.  Anyway, don't mean to rant but this bugs me and I've seen some of
us perpetuate the misconception with certain posts.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 12:50:52 1993
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From: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
Message-Id: <9309201950.AA03614@orion.sybgate.sybase.com>
To: winston@lurnix.com
Subject: Re:  Fast technoCap. Crunch says:
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Content-Length: 972
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> I  don't mean to single you out John, but this is just a good example.  It's
> annoying to me when people (especialy East coasters) think that just because
> we (cali people) don't generaly play fast hardcore at our raves that were
> ignorant to it,  not ready for it, have never experienced it, don't like it,
Exactly.  Just a data point: two years ago a lot of the music played in SF
was pretty hard.  Not 180 bpm hardcore, but what was considered hardcore
techno at the time.  The music has moved from that style to where it is now.

> We don't go around saying:  Ya, we'll send John D. out there to
> show them what "real SF tibal/trance" is all about, because we know better.
East coats promoters have flown out many west coast DJs -- Jeno, Garth, Spun,
Doc Martin, John Williams -- to play at east coast raves.  Some people on the
east coast really get into these DJs.  Others don't.

> We don't make the shit here exclusivley,
No, most of it comes from the UK.


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 17:58:09 1993
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 20:50:16 -0400
From: "Terence R. Strick" <trstrick@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>
Message-Id: <199309210050.AA03978@phoenix.princeton.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: BEN WING!!!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


	Hey Ben-- its terence.  Email me, willya?

	PS. what are u doing raving??

	terence

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 19:24:12 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Cc: dionf@ere.umontreal.ca, winston@lurnix.com,
        Sue Raisty <raisty@berlioz.nsc.com>
Subject: Re: gang violence
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 19:23:58 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@squick.eit.COM>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> And I honestly didn't think there would be people in favor of letting
> the government take away our liberties in the raver community.

People seem to have this attitude that "government is bad" and "liberties
are good". That is silly, there are plenty of governments that are good,
and plenty of systems that work better and more equitably than the american
system (e.g. the netherlands, denmark, sweden, etc). Just because the US
government is fucked doesn't mean that you should be going all libertarian
on us.

Laws (esp. gun control) are needed because people are too stupid and
selfish to view any of their actions from the distance of "the big
picture".

Take a look at the amount of damage that gets done once the government
listens to all the braindamaged liberterians with their "laws are stupid"
or "laws are bad for business" credo. Take for example deregulating
business practices, as Bush did with S&L's under the Reagan presidency. Can
you say Michael Milken, Charles Keating, Junk Bonds, S&L fiasco? I knew you
could!

As far as I'm concerned, the more I see, the more I feel that libetarianism
is "evil" and the associated dogma of extreme privatization is folly.
Libertarianism isn't actively "evil", just evil in a selfish small-minded
sort of way.  IMHO, Libertarianism is the politics of people that have
given up on improving the human condition.

PS: Of course, the US govt. is busy regulating all the things it shouln't
and deregulating all the things it should. SHOULDN'T REGULATE: anything you
do in the privacy of your own home, without causing bad effects on others,
e.g.  some drugs, consensual sex, sexual preference. SHOULD REGULATE:
anything which causes harm to others, e.g. gun possesion, vehicle usage,
the right to profit from others misfortunes (aka capitalism).

PPS: WE NEED MORE GOVERNMENT, NOT LESS! The US governemnt is underinvolved
in a number of crucial issues where they should be playing a very active
role (health care, science/technology/manufacturing development, social
services, education, infrastructure).  But we need better government, not
the innefectual career bureaucrats and pencil pushers that have coagulated
the vitality of America. People that actually give a fuck. ANd we need to
get rid of our so-called-democracy (really a money-ocracy) and install a
non-hierarchical representation system in which all people are treated as
truly equal with their vote. No more senators and congressmen that can be
bought with money, bribes, and favors to their constituents. No more bought
media-access to brainwash people into voting for some self-serving career
politican.

PPPS: pretty good end-of-first-day-of-work-after-7-months-retirement-rant, eh?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=		       Niels Mayer -- mayer@eit.com                         =
=	     Multimedia Engineering Collaboration Environments              =
= Enterprise Integration Technologies, 459 Hamilton Ave, Palo Alto CA 94301 =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 20 23:13:37 1993
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From: dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com (JUMP IN THE FIRE)
Message-Id: <9309210555.AA01053@curly.agames.com>
Subject: Re: Mo' Government
To: squick.eit.com!mayer@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 22:55:31 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9309210224.AA06439@eit.COM>; from "Niels P. Mayer" at Sep 20, 93 7:23 pm
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Neils: you mean well, but you've made a bad assumption or two.

> People seem to have this attitude that "government is bad" and "liberties
> are good". That is silly, there are plenty of governments that are good,
> and plenty of systems that work better and more equitably than the american
> system (e.g. the netherlands, denmark, sweden, etc). Just because the US
> government is fucked doesn't mean that you should be going all libertarian
> on us.

Sounds like you have a warped view of libertarians (see below).  I'm not
one, but read on.

> Laws (esp. gun control) are needed because people are too stupid and
> selfish to view any of their actions from the distance of "the big
> picture".

Laws will always turn on you eventually.  They are not a long-term solution.
I explain below.

> Take a look at the amount of damage that gets done once the government
> listens to all the braindamaged liberterians with their "laws are stupid"
> or "laws are bad for business" credo. Take for example deregulating
> business practices, as Bush did with S&L's under the Reagan presidency. Can
> you say Michael Milken, Charles Keating, Junk Bonds, S&L fiasco? I knew you
> could!

These were libertarian actions on the surface, but were really designed and
written as money grabs for people who helped Reagan get into power, with
the "deregulation" issue being a smokescreen for the real aims.  The
focus of true libertarians is to maximize the liberties of ALL PEOPLE,
not just your rich friends.  You have let others define your terms for you.

For example, a true libertarian would require the strictest possible
environmental safeguards, because poisoning the earth, water, or air
hurts many more people than the money helps one fat board of directors.
In this worldview, your rights stop where mine start, and I don't think
you'll find many people willing to argue that non-poisonous air, water,
and land are not rights.

> As far as I'm concerned, the more I see, the more I feel that libetarianism
> is "evil" and the associated dogma of extreme privatization is folly.
> Libertarianism isn't actively "evil", just evil in a selfish small-minded
> sort of way.  IMHO, Libertarianism is the politics of people that have
> given up on improving the human condition.

No, libertarianism (or anarchism) is the politics of people who believe that
we are all mature enough to be responsible for our own actions, and that 
having our rights and responsibilities returned to us will result in a better
life than before.  This requires a supreme faith in the human condition,
that eventually, given the chance we do not now have, we will get it right.

> PS: Of course, the US govt. is busy regulating all the things it shouln't
> and deregulating all the things it should. SHOULDN'T REGULATE: anything you
> do in the privacy of your own home, without causing bad effects on others,
> e.g.  some drugs, consensual sex, sexual preference. SHOULD REGULATE:
> anything which causes harm to others, e.g. gun possesion, vehicle usage,
> the right to profit from others misfortunes (aka capitalism).

Any time you give other people power to enforce "SHOULDS:" you are left 
with the near-certainty that the shoulds will change for the worse but the
power will remain.  All most "Libertarians" ask for is a return to the
principles of our constitution which have never been repealed but often
get ignored.  I ask for more, but the demonstration holds.

> PPS: WE NEED MORE GOVERNMENT, NOT LESS! The US governemnt is underinvolved
> in a number of crucial issues where they should be playing a very active
> role (health care, science/technology/manufacturing development, social
> services, education, infrastructure).  But we need better government, not
> the innefectual career bureaucrats and pencil pushers that have coagulated
> the vitality of America. People that actually give a fuck.

Here is where your core assumption is revealed.  You think that if we just
had the "right people" in power that everything would get better.  
Unfortunately, there are only two reasons to want power.  1) You want to
order others around.  2) You want to take the power so the type 1s don't
get it.  1) will always win eventually over 2) because the rewards are 
greater.  A society where this will not eventually happen requires the
(possibly gradual) removal of all positions of power and a concurrent 
transfer of responsibility onto all individuals within that society.

> ANd we need to
> get rid of our so-called-democracy (really a money-ocracy) and install a
> non-hierarchical representation system in which all people are treated as
> truly equal with their vote. No more senators and congressmen that can be
> bought with money, bribes, and favors to their constituents. No more bought
> media-access to brainwash people into voting for some self-serving career
> politican.

Look at public opinion polls.  Do you want to be ruled by the whims of the
majority directly?  We are truly equal with our vote, and it doesn't matter.
The myth that our government is unrepresentative is spread by insecure
people who can't accept that they're in the minority.

+++

I don't care who you grant the power or authority to, whether it be a king,
shaman, minister, president, or 280 million random Americans most of whom
believe that ritual genital mutilation of male children is a good idea,
it's still going to go sour on you, because power corrupts, and absolute
power corrupts absolutely.  Even Marx envisioned the state as a temporary
stage on the way to non-governed autonomous collectives, but history tells
us that it always sticks on the "temporary dictatorship of the proletariat"
part.  Human nature.

The only long-term solution is to educate ourselves and act according to our
own desires, and take full responsibility for the consequences.  Any other 
system is open to exploitation and eventual fascism.  You can't change
other people: you can only change yourself.

"So you'd better start living the life that you're talking about" -Fugazi

// g


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 00:50:28 1993
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From: throb@netcom.com (Robert Oliver)
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Subject: Re: liquid air
To: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 0:50:51 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Thanks much to Bryce for putting together the second Fluid Groove production!!  Liquid Air's housey sets definitely contrasted with the first Fluid Groove's faster, faster, faster (northeastern influenced) sounds.  And though I generally prefer the latter (is this sacrilege for a SF raver?), I really got into Tamara's, Jon's, Timothy's, and Ethan's stuff.

Tam spun a more laid back set than what she played at last Thursday's YSH.   "Laid back" is relative, since  I think Tamara was *jammin'* during her short, hour-long performance.  And it was only her second "professional" gig!  Wow! (Oh, and the highly self-critical DJ did make a couple mistakes, but they were hardly noticeable. :) )

Jon was excellent, of course.  Timothy's debut spinning was well done in spite of a few troublesome mixes (the crowd was really great in supporting him through these).   And Ethan, you are the House Meister!  Good job!

Thanks also to Ethan/Sound Vision for the super sound system. It cranks!

I wonder...since Laura is playing with Tam and Jon at the next Fluid Groove, does that mean that Laura will influence them to speed it up a bit? :)  No matter what, I will look forward to dancing my butt off at that event!!

Rob
(throb@netcom.com)
--  

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 00:52:35 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 3:52:31 EDT
From: Monica Tauriello <monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: m.f. hawdcore in calif.
Message-Id: <CMM-RU.1.3.748597951.monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

all right, maybe i'm from brooklyn/new jersey so i'm a bit biased, but i say
fuck that shit about california not being ready for pounding tekno (altho to
be honest, i could do without British breakbeat) - i've spoken to SO many
people here who are sick of only house house house and who totally dug
laura's hardish (slowed down for sf) sets when she was here from new york and
who groove on DRC's hard acid tribal (wheee!!!) i'm really glad i've been
finding more underground events to give me that taste of hardcore i miss so
much - maybe EScape from New York pizza could have an escape from ny hardcore
party... (all right i'm geting silly, but it's late :) )

event report, BTW:
i checked out the "free promo party" for eden (flyers ahd been avail. in gaia
mantra) fri night when i found out ZOE was cancelled ... was sposed ot be at
17th and illinois but moved after hours of waiting for the speakers after a
caltrain security car showed up and may or may not have said to move
on....went to the 24th st. space and continued thru dawn, after a late start
at around 3:15.... lots of nitrous, younger crowd, not particularly friendly
or attitude-y either..... PHAT musick: tonz of hard trance and it's really
too bad i can't remember the djs' names right now (not printed on flyer)....
one of them puts on a 2$ house party in the sunset district out of his garage
on sun. afternoons, tho - more info on this later.....


monicat

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 02:53:39 1993
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To: crunch@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Subject: Re: Universe party .... a private one I attended
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	it would be interesting for a while, but 190 bpm
	is just *too fast* for me.  i like california the
	way it is.

caliban


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 04:46:56 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 12:47:49 BST
Message-Id: <8165.9309211147@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net
Cc: dionf@ere.umontreal.ca, raisty@berlioz.nsc.com,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, winston@lurnix.com
In-Reply-To: Sean Casey's message of Mon, 20 Sep 93 13:56:03 EDT <9309201756.AA18708@pilot.njin.net>
Subject: Re: gang violence
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


 > Having been brought up in a non-gun owning society, I don't see being
 > denied the liberty to own a killing machine as being very different
 > from being denied the right to kill people....

  Sean> One has the right to kill people in certain situations.

And that's a right that I sincerely hope I never have to exercise.

Maybe all countries should maintain nuclear capability, so that they
can teach another country a lesson, in case the need should arise.

I'm sorry, I don't buy the hypothetical argument of what *might*
happen as a justification to own a killing machine.

I should re-emphasize thatmy views are undoubtedly quite strongly
influenced by the fact that I've grown up in a non gun-owning culture.
But I don't see any reason to change that.  I don't hear any calls to
arm to population of the UK with handguns for self-defence....


	roy

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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 12:51:00 BST
Message-Id: <8222.9309211151@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Gun control
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Well, since people seem to be continuing this thread on the list, it
seems appropriate to resend this to the whole list....


	Cosmic


-------------


From: Roy Badami <roy>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 13:15:13 BST
To: gwh@lurnix.lurnix.com
Cc: roy%harlequin.co.uk%uunet@uunet.uu.net, Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk,
        gwh@uunet.uu.net
In-Reply-To: gwh@lurnix.lurnix.com's message of Fri, 17 Sep 93 14:03:47 -0700 <9309172104.AA29499@krupke.lurnix.com>
Subject: Re: gang violence 


  gwh> sfraves is not a gun control mailing list.

Point taken.  I've taken the thread off the list....

  gwh> I know a lot of people who rave and shoot/own guns.
  gwh> I know a lot of people who rave and don't.
  gwh> We're not psychopathic killers, we don't go around
  gwh> playing vigilante or anything stupid like that.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  I've shot a revolver at a
target.  So what?

My point is that it's *much* easier to get a gun in the US than in the
UK, and as a result there are far more guns in circulation.  This
probably has something to do with the relatively high incidence of
shootings.

That said, despite our gun control policy, the number of illegal
firearms circulating in the criminal fraternity has been steadily
increasing over the past few years.  

I don't know what the answer is.  But I happen to prefer our policy.
Guns for target shooting is one thing... but as soon as you buy a gun
for the purpose of killing people, should it be necessary in self
defence, I think that's the start of a slippery slope.  Too much scope
for mistakes and errors of judgement....

And anyway.... if someone breaks into your house (in the US), the main
reason you're gonna feel you need a gun to defend yourself is because
you're worried that he might be armed himself.  In the UK that's just
not the case.  I mean, he might have a knife, but it's still pretty
unusual for housebreakers to carry firearms....  See the point I'm
makeing....?  The only reason you *need* a gun to defend yourself is
because everyone else has one.  Kind of like nuclear weapons, and
Mutually Assured Destruction.

As an example of how low the incidence of gun use is here, let me
point out that it is still the case that our police are not routinely
armed with anything more than a baton.  They carry guns only if
they're dealing with an incident where they expect guns may be
used....


	Cosmic Roy


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 06:31:54 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 14:28:55 +0100 (BST)
From: Greg Eden <G.L.Eden@newcastle.ac.uk>
Reply-To: Greg Eden <G.L.Eden@newcastle.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Musical opinions
To: Laura La Gassa <laura@soda.berkeley.edu>
Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309201941.AA22197@soda.berkeley.edu>
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On Mon, 20 Sep 1993, Laura La Gassa wrote:

> Dave Mch Mahon says:
> 
> 
> In England lately, according to GeoffE, the kids listening to jungle/darkness
> breakbeat aren't a bunch of light-headed lollypop suckers, but rather are
> dancing maniacs much like the usual hardcore bass-bin worshippers we ahve
> out East.  What I'm getting at is that the environment that the English 
> breakbeat scene takes place in is vastly different from, say, the Boston
> Club Scene.  So hating breakbeat because of northeastern club kids makes
> about as much sense as hating classical because the musicians who made it 
> are mostly all dead.
> 
I think you can group clubbers/ravers in the UK into 5 groups.

i) 	The housey house house clubber. Will listen to the same thud tish thud
tish all night. Is more bothered about how s/he looks than the music
(which all sounds the same anyway). Never bought a record.

ii) The vicks up yer nose, bobble hatted, white gloved, 6 E raver. Only
goes to events with 2000 or more clones, never been to a club, doesn't
want to. Listens exclusively to ridiculously fast breakbeats as expounded
by Progidy, SL2 etc. Actually does put hands in air when told to by MC. 

iii)	The garagey I'm so funky type. Like i) only substitute boring
female vocals over house track (maybe slow it down a bit).

iv)	Techno-heads (include me in this category). Think May, James,
Hawtin, Robbers, Atkins etc all descended from heaven (carrying obligatory
303/909's). Stands in front of speaker stack (often with head in bass bin)
admiring 'the texture, the sheer richness of the....'. Refuses to dance to
anything other than 'pure' techno.

v)	Acid/Trancers. Similar to iv) only more likely to dance. Often
seen repeating the same dance move, over and over again, to an alarming
degree whilst drooling. (include me here too).

Spot any friends there?

Actually, it splits into 3 (but I had fun doing the above).  

a) House/garage
b) Breakbeat/Hardcore (in London sense)
c) Techno/Acid/Trance/Hardcore (in Belgian sense)

Ambient isn't really dance music, so I haven't included it here.

greggy303

3030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303
303     Greg Eden, Physics Department          |     g.l.eden@ncl.ac.uk     303
303 Herschel Building, University of Newcastle |303 Forever. Long live Acid!303
3030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303 









From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 06:41:20 1993
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Via: uk.ac.bristol.irix; Tue, 21 Sep 1993 14:41:07 +0100
From: Miles Pearce <Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <16417.9309211440@irix.bristol.ac.uk>
Subject: 190 what!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 14:40:43 +0000 (GMT)
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Dear SFR's

Nice to see that a somewhat scaled-down Universe went off last weekend. From
the list it would appear that Universe is to be associated soley with 190 bpm
beatz. I wonder if Rob played anything that went down in the various 'Club
Tents' of Universe raves over here this year. A whole section of the
Universe following ( 7000 + in Planet Erotica at The Tribal Gathering )
had a storming session at bpm's almost half that of the techno tents.

Check the the video - it does more justice to Universe.

Miles


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 06:52:02 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 14:53:02 BST
Message-Id: <10714.9309211353@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: G.L.Eden@newcastle.ac.uk
Cc: laura@soda.berkeley.edu, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Greg Eden's message of Tue, 21 Sep 1993 14:28:55 +0100 (BST) <Pine.3.07:930517.9309211458.C21311-c100000@aidan>
Subject: Re: Musical opinions
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

  Greg> Actually, it splits into 3 (but I had fun doing the above).  

  Greg> a) House/garage
  Greg> b) Breakbeat/Hardcore (in London sense)
  Greg> c) Techno/Acid/Trance/Hardcore (in Belgian sense)

Actually, i'd tend to say (a) and (c) are quite close, with (b) being
another world.  

I'd say the really big split in the uk dance music scene is hardcore
(ie jungalism, darkness, lots of breakbeats) and house/techno (ie
everything else).

There are a lot of people who will *only* listen to hardcore, or
*only* listen to house/techno.  

Within the house/techno scene, people are far more open to other
things....  lot's of people get into house through trance, or vice
versa.  But that's probably because garage/house/porgressive/
trance/techno/gabba is more of a continuum...


	roy

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 08:24:08 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: 190 Huh?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I tell you what...unless you're a Goa Gill fan, better leave those fast ass
records home!  It's the easiest way to kill any vibe on a dancefloor here
in SF.  Put that shit up to 140-190 and watch what happens to the
dancefloor....can you say bowling lane?

Nothing against that hardcore stuff, methinks though that SF has already
gone through that monotony and decided that enuf was more than enuf (thus
the very few DJ's who play it).  SF has it's own style, and I LOVE it! 
Save those BPM's for a heart attack!

(I hate that aggro speedo 140+ rubbish, and will do my best to stay away
from clubs that play that speed (as in meth) oriented music!)

Peace out...save the BPM's!,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 09:01:22 1993
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From: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 09:01:14 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: 190 Huh?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

J.S. Lee advises:

>I tell you what...unless you're a Goa Gill fan, better leave those fast ass
>records home!  It's the easiest way to kill any vibe on a dancefloor here
>in SF.  Put that shit up to 140-190 and watch what happens to the
>dancefloor....can you say bowling lane?

John, I know you weren't at YSH the two nights I spun there or at the first
Fluid Grooves party . . . so how can you say what will or won't work for
sure in *all* cases?

I was playing stuff from 130 to 160 and people were dancing their butts
off.  I got all kinds of comments about how much they've been missing
faster harder beats, and lots of thanks for coming and giving it a whirl.
Sure, a number of people were standing around going "what IS this shit?"
but whenever I looked up the floor was hopping.  People should be given
the choice, the alternative to hear the freshest most inventive dance 
music of ALL genres, you know?  Diversity!

Maybe in the "big party" sense it won't work, since many of the big parties
have financial considerations they have to worry about, but there IS an 
undeniable audience in SF for other than funky 120 bpm house and tribal.

>(I hate that aggro speedo 140+ rubbish, and will do my best to stay away
>from clubs that play that speed (as in meth) oriented music!)

If you think it's all aggro and crystal-meth related, then you haven't
been listening to what has been coming out in the past 6 months.  Some
very lovely records, some happy, some tweaky, and even some dark, all
around 140-150.  The days of the dark 180 bpm dutch-guy-screaming hardcore
are over, this is true, but faster music does live on and is picking
up influences from other generes and is getting more creative and more
interesting than ever before.

So many people who claim they hate the harder stuff are basing their
opinions on the music that was coming out a year to 18 months ago.  The
20 records I've bought :-).

See you all in 23 days (I'll be bringing those 20 records, and more besides),

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 09:47:41 1993
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From: raisty@berlioz.nsc.com (Sue Raisty)
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Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, dionf@ere.umontreal.ca, winston@lurnix.com
In-Reply-To: "Niels P. Mayer"'s message of Mon, 20 Sep 1993 19:23:58 -0700 <9309210224.AA06439@eit.COM>
Subject: gang violence
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 19:23:58 -0700 From: "Niels P. Mayer"
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

<mayer@squick.eit.COM>

--> Laws (esp. gun control) are needed because people are too stupid
--> and selfish to view any of their actions from the distance of "the
--> big picture".
.....
--> PS: Of course, the US govt. is busy regulating all the things it
--> shouln't and deregulating all the things it should. SHOULDN'T
--> REGULATE: anything you do in the privacy of your own home, without
--> causing bad effects on others, e.g.  some drugs, consensual sex,
--> sexual preference. SHOULD REGULATE: anything which causes harm to
--> others, e.g. gun possesion, vehicle usage, the right to profit
--> from others misfortunes (aka capitalism).

OK, you just said that people are too dumb to take care of themselves,
so the US government should act as our collective parents since it can
see "the big picture".  First, is the government really a capable
parent?  Second, what about innocent until proven guilty? With your
gun restrictions you are assuming that everyone is a criminal.  

Lastly, lets assume your point of view: people are two dumb to do the
right thing so the government has to enforce laws to make them.  And
you also claim that the government should not regulate some drug use.
Wait a minute here, you just said that people are too stupid to use
drugs (or alcohol) responsibly, so OF COURSE the government should
regulate them! And when people do use drugs irresponsibly the
government (aka tax-payer money) pays their treatment, at least in the
socialized medical system that you support.  And their families
suffer, etc...  So why should drugs be exempt from government control
but not guns? 

Similarly, should the government legislate safe sex?  People are too
dumb and selfish to use condoms after all.  And unprotected sex can
kill...  Maybe we should make it a law that you have to wear a jacket
in the winter, or that you have to get 8 hours of sleep a night.

Personally, I would rather my government assume that I am an
intelligent person capable of taking care of myself. 








From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 09:49:23 1993
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From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309211649.AA27758@netcom4.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Faster beats and other things
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Miles says...

>Nice to see that a somewhat scaled-down Universe went off last weekend. From
>the list it would appear that Universe is to be associated soley with 190 bpm
>beatz. I wonder if Rob played anything that went down in the various 'Club
>Tents' of Universe raves over here this year. A whole section of the
>Universe following ( 7000 + in Planet Erotica at The Tribal Gathering )
>had a storming session at bpm's almost half that of the techno tents.

All during the evening,  Rob played good quality tapes of the actual events
that took place in the UK.   Not ALL of it was 190 BPM of course,  but the
beat was varied,  with the slowest around 145 BPM.    I noticed a lot of
rapping over the music,   is this common in the UK?   Not knowing the
order the tapes were played in,  I don't know the actual sequence of the
buildup to Break beat Hardcore,   but the actual hardcore sets lasted
from 10 to 20 minutes,  then would slow down considerably.   But that
depends on what order the tapes were played.   It didn't occur to me
to ask Rob if the tapes were played in the order they were recorded.

I defanitely like the 145 BPM stuff played at YSH last weekend.   It
was really awsome.

>John, I know you weren't at YSH the two nights I spun there or at the first
>Fluid Grooves party . . . so how can you say what will or won't work for
>sure in *all* cases?

Laura,  I can't be everywhere at once,  and YEA! I was at YSH last week and
danced to the great 145 BPM stuff.   But haven't yet been to Fluid Groove yet,
but it's on my list the next time.  There are SOOOO many parties and so
little time to go to all of them (Sigh!).  Laura,  Pse let me know when
U return,  I want to be there...

CC

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 09:55:26 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 09:53:28 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Robert Oliver's message of Tue, 21 Sep 93 0:50:51 PDT <9309210750.AA01666@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: liquid air
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

throb@netcom.com (Robert Oliver) writes:

>I wonder...since Laura is playing with Tam and Jon at the next Fluid
>Groove, does that mean that Laura will influence them to speed it up
>a bit? :)

speaking only for myself: no way!

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 10:02:43 1993
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Subject: 1000 BPM
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers list)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 10:02:35 PDT
From: DWATANAB@uci.edu (Dana Watanabe)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The only kind of music that sucks is music elitism
The worst kind of vibe possible is vibe elitism
and i should throw in a mention of drug elitism just for the hell of it

i would rather see 1000 messages a day about gun control
than 1 message a day with someone masturbating their ego

i Think thAt a large KillEr of any SOrt of good eMotional fEelinG is dO
tO the Distinct culturEs that we try to create for ourselves
and then try to make that distinct culture better than any other

Diversity.. strange word.. 

di-ver-si-ty \de-'ver-set-e^-, d[0xF5]^--\ n,  pl -ties
(14c)
1: the condition of being different: VARIETY
2: an instance or a point of difference 

wow.. Variety.. now that would be kinda strange..

you know in LA for the past year we've been talking about how it would be 
really cool to have a club with one room of pounding hardcore/trance
and another of housey vibe...
why is that such a bad idea?

in denmark a friend of mine went to a club where the first room was ambient
the next was housey trance then to house then to harder trance
then to more breakbeat then to HARDCORE ala belgium style
then to moby 1000 bpm being played constantly...

each room had a different sound.. and the deeper in you got the harder it got
is this bad? isnt it better to have everyone in one place and give them
all the variety that they want and people can be happy wherever in that one
place than to have peopel scattered everywhere possibly happy
but secluded definately?

dunno...
just some random thoughts

 ,
dana

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 10:05:40 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 18:06:25 BST
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To: raisty@berlioz.nsc.com
Cc: mayer@squick.eit.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, dionf@ere.umontreal.ca,
        winston@lurnix.com
In-Reply-To: Sue Raisty's message of Mon, 20 Sep 1993 19:23:58 -0700 From: "Niels P. Mayer" <9309211647.AA26917@berlioz.nsc.com>
Subject: Re: gang violence
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


--> from others misfortunes (aka capitalism).

  Sue> OK, you just said that people are too dumb to take care of themselves,
  Sue> so the US government should act as our collective parents since it can
  Sue> see "the big picture".  First, is the government really a capable
  Sue> parent?  Second, what about innocent until proven guilty? With your
  Sue> gun restrictions you are assuming that everyone is a criminal.  

Human society, collectively, is dumb, or it wouldn't put so much
effort into designing and perfecting killing machines.  Whether it is
the fault of the government, society, or the individual, I don't know.
Probably all three.


  Sue> So why should drugs be exempt from government control but not
  Sue> guns?

The difference is that the purpose of a gun is to be an efficient
killing machine.  That's what it was desinged to do.  Granted, you can
shoot them at targets, but guns are designed to kill living
creatures....  And to be perfectly honest, the primary purpose of a
gun, the reason it was designed, has always been to kill *people*.

I see a big different between using drugs in a responsible manner, and
killing people in a responsible manner.  Like the latter seems to be
largely a contradiction in terms...  I don't think you're making a
fair comparison...

	roy

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 10:20:12 1993
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From: raisty@berlioz.nsc.com (Sue Raisty)
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        winston@lurnix.com
In-Reply-To: Roy Badami's message of Tue, 21 Sep 93 18:06:25 BST <14291.9309211706@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
Subject: gang violence
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

--> From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93
--> 18:06:25 BST

--> I see a big different between using drugs in a responsible manner,
--> and killing people in a responsible manner.  Like the latter seems
--> to be largely a contradiction in terms...  I don't think you're
--> making a fair comparison...

Uh, pardon me.  I said using drugs responsibly and using guns
responsibly.  Don't twist my words, please.  This is not just a
semantic difference and you know it.





From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 10:37:20 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 18:37:48 BST
Message-Id: <14874.9309211737@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: raisty@berlioz.nsc.com
Cc: mayer@squick.eit.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, dionf@ere.umontreal.ca,
        winston@lurnix.com
In-Reply-To: Sue Raisty's message of Tue, 21 Sep 93 10:19:41 PDT <9309211719.AA29159@berlioz.nsc.com>
Subject: Re: gang violence
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

  Sue> Uh, pardon me.  I said using drugs responsibly and using guns
  Sue> responsibly.  Don't twist my words, please.  This is not just a
  Sue> semantic difference and you know it.

Sorry, I'm not trying to twist your words, I'm just trying to explain
the situation as I see it.

Granted, you *can* use guns for target practice, but my point is that
the *purpose* of a firearm is to *kill*.  It is intrinsic to the
nature of a firearm.  It is not just a tool, that can be used for good
or evil.  It is a complex mechanism, which didn't happen by accident.
It was designed.  And the designers had a purpose for their machine.
It was to make it an efficient killing machine.

Granted, *despite* the fact that guns are desgined to kill, it is
possible to pervert that purpose, and use them in a variety of other
ways.  But none of these uses are so fundamental that they actually
require a killing machine to carry them out.

Can you say that *any* of the above applies to drugs....?

Actually, if you had argued the point, which I deliberately put very
bluntly, to make it unpalatable, that it is *not* a complete
contradiction to talk about killing people repsonsibly, then I'd have
a harder time arguing with you.  You could argue that it *is* a
responsible act to kill in self defence.

Face it, most guns are bought for the purpose of killing people, or at
least for the deterent value of the threat of killing people.  Either
bought by criminals, or bought by innocent people to use in self
defence.  So when we're talking about the right to own a gun, we're
*not* talking about the right to engage in target practice (we have
that right here, too.)  We're talking about the right to use that gun
to kill people....  

It's a difficult question, and i'm not saying that, particulalry in a
violent and heavily armed society like the USA, people shouldn't be
prepared to kill in self defence.  But you can't evade the issue --
this is about killing people, and nothing else.

	roy


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 10:37:33 1993
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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Message-Id: <9309211736.AA16737@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: liquid air
To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 10:36:39 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
In-Reply-To: <9309211653.AA09831@dlsun87.us.oracle.com>; from "Jon Drukman" at Sep 21, 93 9:53 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> 
> throb@netcom.com (Robert Oliver) writes:
> 
> >I wonder...since Laura is playing with Tam and Jon at the next Fluid
> >Groove, does that mean that Laura will influence them to speed it up
> >a bit? :)
> 
> speaking only for myself: no way!
> 
> Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com

As for me, I have some material that is slightly more on the faster side 
(meaning 130-135 BPM, in my case) which I may use. Laura will probably 
influence me to play a more tweaked set...I will probably stay away from the 
more accessible things that I play and break out the mind-melting selections...I think I will have to say no way on the speed as well since I really like the
speed I play and am very comfortable with it (I do make exceptions for killer
tracks that are on the high end of things, like 20 Hz). See you all there!


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
                                Tamara Palmer
                              trance@netcom.com
                            * La Vie est Musique *
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-


-- 



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 10:45:29 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Re: gang violence
To: raisty@berlioz.nsc.com
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 10:46:48 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
In-Reply-To: <9309211647.AA26917@berlioz.nsc.com>; from "Sue Raisty" at Sep 20, 93 7:23 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


OK, I usually stay out of these non-rave discussions, but I think
I'm entitled to cash in a few karma points and indulge myself once
every few months.

Sue Raisty wrote...
>
><mayer@squick.eit.COM>
>
>--> Laws (esp. gun control) are needed because people are too stupid
>--> and selfish to view any of their actions from the distance of "the
>--> big picture".
>.....
>--> PS: Of course, the US govt. is busy regulating all the things it
>--> shouln't and deregulating all the things it should. SHOULDN'T
>--> REGULATE: anything you do in the privacy of your own home, without
>--> causing bad effects on others, e.g.  some drugs, consensual sex,
>--> sexual preference. SHOULD REGULATE: anything which causes harm to
>--> others, e.g. gun possesion, vehicle usage, the right to profit
>--> from others misfortunes (aka capitalism).
>
>OK, you just said that people are too dumb to take care of themselves,
>so the US government should act as our collective parents since it can
>see "the big picture".  First, is the government really a capable
>parent?  Second, what about innocent until proven guilty? With your
>gun restrictions you are assuming that everyone is a criminal.  

Government, in an actual democracy, would be capable parent - it would
be the result of rational debate among the populace or representatives
of the populace, and if there is no absolute standard for right and
wrong, we have to go with the consensus opinion.  Of course, today
in the U.S., there are many problems with government and democracy,
but for the single issue of gun control, we don't have to go into 
all that to discuss the issue.

What I haven't heard gun-control opponents address is how much
easier guns make it to kill people.  As a recent armed-robbery victim,
I can tell you that a gun makes you almost helpless and the gun-holder
has your life in his hands.  If the attacker has a knife or is just
using his physical strength, you could be killed, but you also
may have the chance to run, and probably have a much greater chance of
survival.  

Now I'm not convinced gun control (waiting period, ban on assault
weapons, ban on all weapons) will work, and I'm certain it won't
cut violence to the levels of other countries in the short term,
but the statistics on violence and homicides in Europe and Japan
sound awfully good.  The sheer number of guns that already exist
in the US would make those goals hard to reach, but if it gun control
saves 10 lives, or 100 lives, or 1000 lives, is it worth it?

I suppose the controversy hinges on whether people believe that
the level of potential harm that guns present crosses a threshold
that makes them worthy of regulation.  I would assume that just
about everyone would agree that we should prohibit people from 
owning a nuclear weapon, but we can't prohibit people from owning
knives.  Where do guns fall?

>
>Lastly, lets assume your point of view: people are two dumb to do the
>right thing so the government has to enforce laws to make them.  And
>you also claim that the government should not regulate some drug use.
>Wait a minute here, you just said that people are too stupid to use
>drugs (or alcohol) responsibly, so OF COURSE the government should
>regulate them! And when people do use drugs irresponsibly the
>government (aka tax-payer money) pays their treatment, at least in the
>socialized medical system that you support.  And their families
>suffer, etc...  So why should drugs be exempt from government control
>but not guns? 

Again, the potential social harm in drugs is much less - it's some
number of dollars, relatively small in terms of the whole health-care
system.  Gun-related violence, on the other hand, takes LIVES and adds
fear to everyday life (in addition to its medical costs), so I think
it is certainly higher on the scale of damage to society.  Is it above
the level at which it becomes important for the government to
regulate?  That's what the democratic process could decide.

>
>Similarly, should the government legislate safe sex?  People are too
>dumb and selfish to use condoms after all.  And unprotected sex can
>kill...  Maybe we should make it a law that you have to wear a jacket
>in the winter, or that you have to get 8 hours of sleep a night.
>
>Personally, I would rather my government assume that I am an
>intelligent person capable of taking care of myself. 
>

Safe sex and not wearing a jacket pretty much fall under the 
"anything you do in the privacy of your own home and don't do any
bad effects on others" (assuming the decision to practice unsafe
sex is consensual), except for the potential medical costs, which 
again are probably less a burden on society than violence.

I would love it if all people were intelligent enough to take 
care of themselves and were able to recognize the effects of their
actions on society.  But obviously, there are going to be disagreements
on this, and the best solution we have now is democracy.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 o derek chung  o  oracle graphics  o  dhchung@us.oracle.com  o 415.506.6195 o
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 10:55:34 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9309211755.AA24943@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: 190 Huh?
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 10:55:56 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9309211524.AA00280@netcom.netcom.com>; from "John S. Lee" at Sep 21, 93 8:24 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

My mailer says that John S. Lee said:
> 
> I tell you what...unless you're a Goa Gill fan, better leave those fast ass
> records home!  It's the easiest way to kill any vibe on a dancefloor here
> in SF.  Put that shit up to 140-190 and watch what happens to the
> dancefloor....can you say bowling lane?
> 
Maybe in the clubs, but there's more raves than clubs. I've personally
never even seen true, well mixed acid ever done at a club or mega-rave,
anyway, so I have no basis for comparison.  And frankly, Goa has *no*
skill at mixing, so no wonder the dance floor clears.  He does have a
good following, though, so he must be doing *something* right. Also, I
have noticed the sound of 303's at a lot more commercial events in the
past month that in the entire previous year. Do I sense a trend?

> Nothing against that hardcore stuff, methinks though that SF has already
> gone through that monotony and decided that enuf was more than enuf (thus
> the very few DJ's who play it).  SF has it's own style, and I LOVE it! 
>
SF does *not* have it's own style.  DJs have their own style. As for that
"house stuff", methinks that we've had enough of it :). Just kidding.
Seriously, though, there is more than enough room in SF for many kinds of
music.  There are *weekly* events devoted to house, hip-hop, acid jazz,
deep house, soul, rock, classical, folk, world beat, and more. One genre,
or even a whole bunch of genres, added to the overall SF music scene can
only add to the richness we already have. As for the number of DJs who play
acid, I went to a smallish event last weekend where I counted no less than
five kick-ass acid DJs. The DJs are out there, they just know that none of
the current big party throwers can afford to let them spin a set.

> (I hate that aggro speedo 140+ rubbish, and will do my best to stay away
> from clubs that play that speed (as in meth) oriented music!)
>
Saying that "fast" music is meth music 
is like saying that ambient music is quaalude music. Puh-leez! Music is
music, and has no inherent association with any drug. I can dance to 140bpm
at 70 (or even 35) bpm, and then you'd think i was on Prozac. There's also
ambient music that is seriously twitchy.  It is sufficient to know that
you don't prefer certain music.

And everyone will do very well to be in places that they are comfortable with.
I wouldn't go to an acid jazz event if i didn't feel like listening to
acid jazz that night.  To do so is a disservice to everyone, coz i'll be
there off in a corner, all frowny faced and shut in, which detracts from
everyone else's fun. Ditto for whatever style of music i'm up for at any
particular moment of time.  It works best when everyone is enjoying 
themselves and wants to be there.
-- 
Bryce Ryan ----------- AMBIANCE ------------ brycer@netcom.com
Sound surrounds you like Liquid Air ------- Every Month ------
415-487-8497 -- Audio by Sound Vision -- Flyer by Dave Scruton

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 11:06:21 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 14:06:09 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309211806.AA01605@pilot.njin.net>
To: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Gun control
In-Reply-To: <8222.9309211151@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
References: <8222.9309211151@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Roy Badami writes:
 > And anyway.... if someone breaks into your house (in the US), the main
 > reason you're gonna feel you need a gun to defend yourself is because
 > you're worried that he might be armed himself.  In the UK that's just
 > not the case.  I mean, he might have a knife, but it's still pretty
 > unusual for housebreakers to carry firearms....  See the point I'm
 > makeing....?  The only reason you *need* a gun to defend yourself is
 > because everyone else has one.  Kind of like nuclear weapons, and
 > Mutually Assured Destruction.

I think you're assuming that a gun is only warranted if an intruder
has one. Most state laws are worded something like this: "Lethal force
is warranted if one is in imminent danger of death or great bodily
harm." It doesn't matter whether they're armed or not.

I believe that the mindset is not "everyone has guns, we need one". I
believe the mindset of buying a gun for home defense is to have as
much advantage as possible in a defensive situation, no matter how an
intruder may be armed.

The sound of a shotgun action being worked, or the sight of a laser
aimed at one's chest has been known to scare intruders off without any
other action being taken.

Personally, I don't think restricting guns is going to reduce violent
crime any more than throwing people in jail will make drugs less
available. I've heard a lot of Brits point to their society and say
"Look, it works here." I think they have the cause and effect
backwards. Theirs is a much older, far different society where
something like that can work. Our problem is a deep societal problem
and the easy availability of weapons is because of that problem, not
the other way around. The only effective way to cut down on weapons is
not to take them away, but to effect real change so that people no
longer want them. Banning any sort of thing has never been effective
in our society. It usually results in a black market, turning
consumers into criminals, more violent crime, and a worse situation
than one had in the beginning.

The only real way to fix America is to stop just treating the symptoms
and start solving the underlying problems. Want to remedy violent
crime? The answer isn't to try and confiscate guns or put everyone in
jail; the answer is to eliminate the need for violent crime. That's a
very tough agenda, yes, but the only long term solution.

Sean


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 11:26:18 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 19:27:04 BST
Message-Id: <15769.9309211827@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Sean Casey's message of Tue, 21 Sep 93 14:06:09 EDT <9309211806.AA01605@pilot.njin.net>
Subject: Re: Gun control
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  Sean> I think you're assuming that a gun is only warranted if an intruder
  Sean> has one. Most state laws are worded something like this: "Lethal force
  Sean> is warranted if one is in imminent danger of death or great bodily
  Sean> harm." It doesn't matter whether they're armed or not.

But if the intruder isn't armed, then it's far less likely that you'll
be in imminent danger of death...

  Sean> I believe that the mindset is not "everyone has guns, we need
  Sean> one". I believe the mindset of buying a gun for home defense
  Sean> is to have as much advantage as possible in a defensive
  Sean> situation, no matter how an intruder may be armed.

So you want to be in a position to kill unarmed intruders, just
because it makes you feel safer...?

A gun is an *offensive* weapon.  Surely the only reason you'd even
consider using a gun in *defence* is because of the high probability
that the intrudor is lethally armed...

  Sean> The sound of a shotgun action being worked, or the sight of a
  Sean> laser aimed at one's chest has been known to scare intruders
  Sean> off without any other action being taken.

Laser sighted rifles for home defence....?  You jest, surely?  You're
going to try and pick out potential burglars from the other end of the
street, and take them out before they get anywhere near your house...?
Just what kind of weapons *are* freely available in the US...?

  Sean> Personally, I don't think restricting guns is going to reduce violent
  Sean> crime any more than throwing people in jail will make drugs less
  Sean> available. I've heard a lot of Brits point to their society and say
  Sean> "Look, it works here." I think they have the cause and effect
  Sean> backwards.

I guess the question, then, is what is the fundamental difference.
Why is is that gun control works here, and we don't get civil rights
groups up in arms about it....?  Why is it that most people here don't
want to own guns....?  When there's news of a violent attack, you
don't get people campaigning for the right to go out and buy a gun to
protect themselves.  We just don't seem to think like that...?  

But as long as you continue to regard gun ownership as normal, you
*will* continue to think like that....

	roy

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 12:00:36 1993
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From: megatest!kermit!preiter@uu2.psi.com (Pete Reiter)
Message-Id: <9309211822.AA04007@kermit.megaeng>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: fast vs. slow
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Content-Length: 871
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On the subject of fast vs. slow beats. One thing to consider is that different
speeds of music engender vastly different dancing styles. Ever notice how
elaborate hip-hop dancing can be? Watch In Living Color some time. Lots of
jumps spins and various acrobatics. That's only possible because the beats
are so slow.

Speed the music up a bit to 120 bpm. You can still jump around a bit, but the
acrobatics are now impossible. Once you get up to 140-160-180 bpm you're 
reduced to standing in one place and twitching. Full body movements are
very difficult unless you're totally hopped up on some powerful stimulants.

I for one like jumping around, that's why I like 120-130 bpm music.

But my main point is that if you're going to expose people to a vastly different
speed of music, they have to change their dancing styles, so there may be some
resistance.

						Pete

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 12:14:07 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 12:13:59 -0700
From: Laura La Gassa <laura@soda.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <9309211913.AA01957@soda.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  liquid air
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Jon Drukman says:

>throb@netcom.com (Robert Oliver) writes:
>
>>I wonder...since Laura is playing with Tam and Jon at the next Fluid
>>Groove, does that mean that Laura will influence them to speed it up
>>a bit? :)
>
>speaking only for myself: no way!

YES Jon, GOOD answer.  It is not my desire or intent to "influence"
anyone!  All I want to do is to play some records I love for people to
dance to.  It's not about money or ego or shaping a scene, but just about
sharing something with others. 

DJs should play what they like, how they like . . . lord forbid Jon or Tamara
or myself or anyone should change to please other people.

If we WERE all worried about pleasing the most amount of people at once,
then we'd all be trying to work at the local club that plays lots of
Madonna and Whitney Houston, or something to that effect -- you get the
picture.

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 12:23:30 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 12:21:33 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Laura La Gassa's message of Tue, 21 Sep 93 12:13:59 -0700 <9309211913.AA01957@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject:  liquid air
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>>speaking only for myself: no way!
>
>YES Jon, GOOD answer.  It is not my desire or intent to "influence"
>anyone!  All I want to do is to play some records I love for people to
>dance to.  It's not about money or ego or shaping a scene, but just about
>sharing something with others. 

i'm glad Laura reacted this way.  the beauty of the scene *is* its
diversity!  when the UVC was in oklahoma at a party with Beltram, he
was playing real headbanging stuff.  we spoke with him and he said
that he isn't really into it but he thought that that's what they
expected him to play.  we said you should play what you like, not what
you think people want to hear... after all, they are hiring you to be
yourself, not some image they might have of you.

and i have to wonder... if you're playing records that you don't like,
how can you possibly do a good job at it?  part of the magic is the
music-DJ-crowd synergy, and you'd be lacking a crucial element...

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 12:33:29 1993
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To: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com
From: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Subject: Re: tamara@ysh.taz.fs.ca.us
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	i watched tamara spin alot that night, i could tell
	where she thought she messed up but it usually was
	not really noted by the crowd... i could only tell
	by the expression on her face.  the musical choices
	were real cool, and the vibe was great.



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 12:36:32 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 15:36:17 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309211936.AA04762@pilot.njin.net>
To: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Cc: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: 190 Huh?
In-Reply-To: <9309211601.AA17557@soda.berkeley.edu>
References: <9309211601.AA17557@soda.berkeley.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Laura La Gassa writes:
 > I was playing stuff from 130 to 160 and people were dancing their butts
 > off.  I got all kinds of comments about how much they've been missing
 > faster harder beats, and lots of thanks for coming and giving it a whirl.
 > Sure, a number of people were standing around going "what IS this shit?"
 > but whenever I looked up the floor was hopping.  People should be given
 > the choice, the alternative to hear the freshest most inventive dance 
 > music of ALL genres, you know?  Diversity!

I agree 100%. Diversity is one of the things that makes the scene so
special. Diversity in people, diversity in the music. If you don't
like what the DJ is spinning, you can chill out for an hour or two,
and hear someone different. It's great! And Fluid Grooves definitely
passed the litmus test. People were dancing their butts off and having
a great time. It got the best reviews I've ever heard of a rave.

There's plenty of interest in SF for some of the faster beats. I don't
know how many people I've heard tell me they'd like to hear some more
of the faster stuff. I know that the _next_ Fluid Grooves is going to
be packed, largely for that reason. (Get em, Laura)

SF is in no danger of being swamped with hardcore. I for one hope we
get more of it because there's a lot of people it will make very
happy.

Sean


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 12:46:50 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 15:45:19 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309211945.AA05208@pilot.njin.net>
To: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Cc: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
Subject: Re: liquid air
In-Reply-To: <9309211736.AA16737@netcom3.netcom.com>
References: <9309211653.AA09831@dlsun87.us.oracle.com>
	<9309211736.AA16737@netcom3.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Tamara Palmer writes:
 > As for me, I have some material that is slightly more on the faster
 > side (meaning 130-135 BPM, in my case) which I may use. Laura will
 > probably influence me to play a more tweaked set...I will probably
 > stay away from the more accessible things that I play and break out
 > the mind-melting selections...I think I will have to say no way on
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 > the speed as well since I really like the speed I play and am very
 > comfortable with it (I do make exceptions for killer tracks that
 > are on the high end of things, like 20 Hz). See you all there!

Oh, Tamara, I love you. I really do :).

[preparing for mind melt]

(grin)

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 12:47:35 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 15:47:22 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309211947.AA05326@pilot.njin.net>
To: DWATANAB@uci.edu (Dana Watanabe)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers list)
Subject: 1000 BPM
In-Reply-To: <199309211702.AA29213@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
References: <199309211702.AA29213@mothra.nts.uci.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Dana Watanabe writes:
 > The only kind of music that sucks is music elitism
 > The worst kind of vibe possible is vibe elitism
 > and i should throw in a mention of drug elitism just for the hell of it
 > 
 > i would rather see 1000 messages a day about gun control
 > than 1 message a day with someone masturbating their ego

For the record, I agree with Dana completely.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 13:12:17 1993
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To: Derek Chung <uunet!us.oracle.com!dhchung@uunet.UU.NET>
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves), gwh@lurnix.COM
Subject: Re: gang violence 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Sep 93 10:46:48 PDT."
             <9309211746.AA04244@slamdance.us.oracle.com> 
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 12:57:34 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Derek:
>What I haven't heard gun-control opponents address is how much
>easier guns make it to kill people.  As a recent armed-robbery victim,
>I can tell you that a gun makes you almost helpless and the gun-holder
>has your life in his hands.  If the attacker has a knife or is just
>using his physical strength, you could be killed, but you also
>may have the chance to run, and probably have a much greater chance of
>survival.  

Have you ever tried running away from someone with a knife?
I've SEEN someone killed that way.  By the time it's a threat,
the guy is probably four feet away... you can't run when they're
that close.  It just doesn't work.

Btw, last time someone took a shot at me I was able to run and
wasn't hit.

>Now I'm not convinced gun control (waiting period, ban on assault
>weapons, ban on all weapons) will work, and I'm certain it won't
>cut violence to the levels of other countries in the short term,
>but the statistics on violence and homicides in Europe and Japan
>sound awfully good.  The sheer number of guns that already exist
>in the US would make those goals hard to reach, but if it gun control
>saves 10 lives, or 100 lives, or 1000 lives, is it worth it?

How many people will die because they couldn't defend themselves?
Several million people in the US have defended themselves with
guns, and 99% of them didn't have to shoot to do so.  How many
of them would be dead instead of alive today?

>Again, the potential social harm in drugs is much less - it's some
>number of dollars, relatively small in terms of the whole health-care
>system.  Gun-related violence, on the other hand, takes LIVES and adds
>fear to everyday life (in addition to its medical costs), so I think
>it is certainly higher on the scale of damage to society.  Is it above
>the level at which it becomes important for the government to
>regulate?  That's what the democratic process could decide.

Ahh, do you mean drug-related violence?  80% of shootings are
related to the lower-class areas drug dealing where things are
really unsafe.  Do you really think you can disarm these people
who are already importing highly illegal drugs from outside
the US?  They'll just start adding pistols to the loads of
cocaine...

It's not such a pretty friendly world out there.  That's sad,
but that's reality 8-(.

-george



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 13:13:26 1993
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To: Roy Badami <uunet!harlequin.co.uk!roy@uunet.UU.NET>
Cc: csc@pilot.njin.net, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, gwh@lurnix.COM
Subject: Re: Gun control 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Sep 93 19:27:04 BST."
             <15769.9309211827@wundt.harlequin.co.uk> 
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 12:49:06 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


>So you want to be in a position to kill unarmed intruders, just
>because it makes you feel safer...?

Not speaking for Sean, but I'm not worried about unarmed intruders.
They'll probably leave.  I'm worried about the armed ones.

  Sean> The sound of a shotgun action being worked, or the sight of a
  Sean> laser aimed at one's chest has been known to scare intruders
  Sean> off without any other action being taken.

>Laser sighted rifles for home defence....?  You jest, surely?  You're
>going to try and pick out potential burglars from the other end of the
>street, and take them out before they get anywhere near your house...?
>Just what kind of weapons *are* freely available in the US...?

Stop believing movies...

Laser sights are found mostly on shotguns and pistols these days.
It makes it easier to aim at night (and during the day)...
the primary use is at close range.  Thinking that Sean was
discussing offing people a block away is ignorance of 
firearms.

  Sean> Personally, I don't think restricting guns is going to reduce violent
  Sean> crime any more than throwing people in jail will make drugs less
  Sean> available. I've heard a lot of Brits point to their society and say
  Sean> "Look, it works here." I think they have the cause and effect
  Sean> backwards.

>I guess the question, then, is what is the fundamental difference.
>Why is is that gun control works here, and we don't get civil rights
>groups up in arms about it....?  Why is it that most people here don't
>want to own guns....?  When there's news of a violent attack, you
>don't get people campaigning for the right to go out and buy a gun to
>protect themselves.  We just don't seem to think like that...?  

>But as long as you continue to regard gun ownership as normal, you
>*will* continue to think like that....

I suggest you talk to some people who've been shot or stabbed
or even just mugged and ask them about what they think about
self defense.  As a victim of some of the above, I know that
nobody's around to help you, including police; that there are
people out there willing to hurt and kill you for really
trivial reasons; that I do not like the possibility of it
happening again (at this point, I'm pushing my luck on
having survived everything that's happened to me).

It is a horrible thing that it sometimes comes to this, but
if it _does_ come down to someone else trying to kill me
(again), I have a wife and a life ahead of me that are both
much more important to me than the person who's trying
to kill me, and I want to be able to have some control
over my survival.  If the bad guy doesn't go home ever,
that's something I'll regret for the rest of my life,
but I'll be alive.  And nobody has the right to try
and take that choice away from me.

-george



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 13:42:45 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 16:42:30 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309212042.AA07542@pilot.njin.net>
To: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Cc: csc@pilot.njin.net, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Gun control
In-Reply-To: <15769.9309211827@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
References: <15769.9309211827@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
	<9309211806.AA01605@pilot.njin.net>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Roy Badami writes:
 > But if the intruder isn't armed, then it's far less likely that you'll
 > be in imminent danger of death...

Death or great bodily harm, to you or anyone else you're around.
People don't fool around with intruders here. Call it American
attitude or whatever you want, but we consider our homes inviolate.
Most people here would feel perfectly justified killing someone about
to kill or greatly injure them or someone they loved. Perhaps what
we're seeing is a difference in societal attitudes about one's space
and one's body.

 > So you want to be in a position to kill unarmed intruders, just
 > because it makes you feel safer...?

Unarmed intruders threatening my life. I'd never shoot anyone I
thought was harmless. I'd never point a gun at anyone unless my very
next action was to kill them.

 > A gun is an *offensive* weapon.  Surely the only reason you'd even
 > consider using a gun in *defence* is because of the high probability
 > that the intrudor is lethally armed...

Technically speaking, in most states, a deadly weapon is anything you
use against someone with intent to kill. A man in KY was convicted of
assault with a deadly weapon when he bashed his wife in the head with
it.

I don't *care* if an intruder is lethally armed or not. All that
matters is that a reasonable person thinks they're in imminent danger
of great bodily harm. Once again, perhaps we just have different
societal attitudes.

Now personally, I'd like to carry Grizzly Bear Strength pepper spray.
It doesn't maim or kill, and it's very effective. Hurts a lot more
too, which might function as some operant conditioning.

 > Laser sighted rifles for home defence....?  You jest, surely?  You're
 > going to try and pick out potential burglars from the other end of the
 > street, and take them out before they get anywhere near your house...?
 > Just what kind of weapons *are* freely available in the US...?

Laser sighted pistols. Laser sights are inexpensive nowdays, greatly
reduce the chance of missing (and hitting innocents), and have a
psychological factor.

 > I guess the question, then, is what is the fundamental difference.
 > Why is is that gun control works here, and we don't get civil rights
 > groups up in arms about it....?  Why is it that most people here don't
 > want to own guns....?  When there's news of a violent attack, you
 > don't get people campaigning for the right to go out and buy a gun to
 > protect themselves.  We just don't seem to think like that...?  
 > 
 > But as long as you continue to regard gun ownership as normal, you
 > *will* continue to think like that....

Beacase here isn't there. Our society, though we speak the same
language, is not your society. And you've still got it backwards.
Taking away guns from honest civilians (not possible in these times)
will not stop criminals, will not change things. It has to be done the
other way around. Stop thinking of us in terms of your society. The
solution here has to come from the root up.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 13:49:13 1993
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From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309212049.AA14928@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Beat speed vs dance style
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Pete says:

>But my main point is that if you're going to expose people to a vastly different
>speed of music, they have to change their dancing styles, so there may be some
>resistance.

I agree,  and my style changes appropriatly... And I try very hard to vary my
dance style and stay within the safe physical limitations of low impact on my
back,  arching and bending my back instead of some of the stiff "fucking" motions
I see people do.   The faster the music,  the less time I spend in the air or
off the ground.  I try and do what is good for my body and always staying within
my specific limitation.   Which is obviously different than someone elses limitations.

Which is why I like the rave dancing scene,   where everyone does his or her own thing.

CC

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 13:55:06 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 16:54:57 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309212054.AA08012@pilot.njin.net>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Cc: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>, csc@pilot.njin.net,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Gun control
In-Reply-To: <9309212042.AA07542@pilot.njin.net>
References: <15769.9309211827@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
	<9309211806.AA01605@pilot.njin.net>
	<9309212042.AA07542@pilot.njin.net>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I write: 

 > Technically speaking, in most states, a deadly weapon is anything you
 > use against someone with intent to kill. A man in KY was convicted of
 > assault with a deadly weapon when he bashed his wife in the head with
 > it.

Oops, that should read "with a chair." (She turned out okay) The point
being, a lot of violent crimes use other weapons, or no weapons at
all. An awful lot of rapists perpetrate their crime unarmed.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 14:38:38 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 14:38:29 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, socal-raves@ucsd.edu,
        nw-raves@wimsey.ba.ca, dcraves@american.edu
Subject: CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS - have you thrown a party?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

        I'm seriously trying to build up a storehouse of net.knowlege
about throwing clubs/raves/renegades on the FTP site. It even has its
own directory, /pub/raves/holdyourown.  So what I'm asking the
collected mass of net.ravers is.. have you ever been the main force
behind or helped put on a party?  If so, and if you think you have
learned a thing or two from it, and have some hints to help those who
are thinking about throwing them, please share!  Write up a post about
your experience, and send it to me, and I'll throw it on the site.
DON'T do a group reply to this message, send it to me personally, or
save me a step and mail it to groovedaddy@techno.stanford.edu.  Any
file length is fine.  I haven't raided the archives of the various
mailing lists looking for posts, so if you typed something already
resend it to me...  Thanks!

	Brian

p.s. - geek question - anyone know how to get gzipped files to work
under gopher?  I modified the gopherd.conf file according to
insstructions and it doesn't work.... any advice?  I have gopher
running on techno.stanford and right now only uncompressed files are
viewable, as are the image files under mosaic.

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 15:07:15 1993
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From: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
Message-Id: <9309212206.AA04558@orion.sybgate.sybase.com>
To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re:  CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS - have you thrown a party?
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Content-Length: 181
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> about throwing clubs/raves/renegades on the FTP site.
How do you throw a renegade on an ftp site?  What if the net goes down?
What if you get busted by the system administrator?


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 16:11:45 1993
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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Message-Id: <9309212311.AA07507@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re:  CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS - have you thrown a party?
To: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 16:11:50 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
In-Reply-To: <9309212206.AA04558@orion.sybgate.sybase.com>; from "Michael Wertheim" at Sep 21, 93 3:06 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> 
> > about throwing clubs/raves/renegades on the FTP site.
> How do you throw a renegade on an ftp site?  What if the net goes down?
> What if you get busted by the system administrator?

Haven't you ever heard of VRAVE, man?


:)

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
                                Tamara Palmer
                              trance@netcom.com
                            * La Vie est Musique *
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-


-- 

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 18:06:26 1993
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 21:06:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael J Minnich <mmdh+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Old Song ID please
Cc: 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Alright, I know this is a lame question, but could someone please tell
me the name of the *original* version of the old house song with the
really long monologue at the beginning ("This is my house.  I built this
house.  I am the creator." etc etc)  I know it's something like "The
House that Jack Built" and I think it might be by Frankie Knuckles, but
I've never been able to find it in any used record stores, so I thought
maybe I was looking for the wrong thing.  Could someone set me straight?
 Thanks...

(you may as well reply to me in private email so as not to fill up the list)

---
Michael Minnich                                     mmdh+@andrew.cmu.edu
Rockin' the Joint!                            <finger me for my PGP key>


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 19:40:34 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: 190 Huh again
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Nope, this is not a flame...but after reading the replies to my original
190  Huh? posts....well...naw, it ain't a flame.

The 140+ BPM has, IMO, run it's course here.  The people who have attended
these events have been mostly amped up on speed...I've seen 'em.  There is
little you can do with your body at those speeds otehr than the arrythmic
"pogo" dance.  And speed is great for that type of twitchyness.

(I HATE speed.  It is a stupid drug that I deplore.  I don't like to be
around those that are on it, don't like to see people dance whilst on it,
and I hate to see those buggers come back to earth a complete mess.  If I
had my way the shit would disappear from the planet, but everyone has their
drug of choice.  I do wish people would lay off the stuff.  I saw one
well-known person who is in the clothing biz here in the city do a, uh,
"bump" @ GK.  I was pissed!  Not so much at the person doing it, but
looking at what they had become - a tweeker.  Quite sad actually....oh, how
the mighty have fallen.)

I am not a music elitist, but I DO HATE that style of music(190+).  ACID is
different and for the most part, quite danceable ( until you get up to
about 140+, then you have no choice but to pogo!).

(this whole elitist schtick is waaaay old gents/ladies.  Look, if someone
doesn't like something, and has a preference for something else, and is
strong in that opinion, that is not elitism.  It is called "having a
preference".  And every human being is entitled to such without some sorry
label being attached to his/her persona!  - Thanks)

Hell if you like it, great, blow a gasket, have fun!  I cannot have fun,
could not have fun, nor would want to have fun at such speeds...unless of
course I am in a Ferrari Testosterona on 280 South/Northbound going around
190+mph.

Hardcore, I can leave home without it....ANYTIME!!!

as usual,
John

P.S.  I do really love trippy acid sets, trippy ambient sets, trippy
anything sets, trance, tribal, house, garage, hip-house, anything, even
super-divaesque of late, but never 190+.  

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 19:59:03 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: asah@cs.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: perhaps a less religious viewpoint on high BPM...
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 20:00:02 -0700
From: asah@ginsberg.CS.Berkeley.EDU
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I'm in agreement with the diversity-is-great crowd.  But I do think there
  is a legit beef with 140+.  Namely, dancing to that kind of pace is
  --tiring-- (unless, as jsl@netcom.com suggests), you're on speed or some
  equivalent, or just jingling...

IMHO, it's great to show diversity, so it's fine to throw in a set (a
  half-set?) of FBPM at a time, but six hours of it solid leaves bodies all
  over the place.  If nothing else, if you're going to do that, at least
  have the vibe-awareness to setup a second 'floor with slower paced
  stuff...

note: slower pace != chill area...

adam                       ...Adam Sah...asah@cs.Berkeley.EDU...
                                  "Life___  is complicated."


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 20:35:07 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9309220335.AA11578@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: perhaps a less religious viewpoint on high BPM...
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 20:35:29 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9309220300.AA01650@ginsberg.CS.Berkeley.EDU>; from "asah@ginsberg.cs.berkeley.edu" at Sep 21, 93 8:00 pm
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I have no religious viewpoint regarding "fast" music (and I use quotes
consciously and to make a point).  I completely understand how someone
moving their limbs at 190bpm can tire out quickly if they're not 
aerobically trained.  It does require a different style of dancing
if one is not so fit.  It does *not* require amphetamines or their
analogs. Dancing at half, third or even quarter speed is perfectly
OK.  And, I'd like to point out that I've seen quite a few people
turn pale during an evening of 120bpm sets put in by Garth, Jeno,
and Tony, so it seems more a matter of fitness and style than bpms.
I've also seen people drop like flies during a set that Taylor (LA)
threw down at LA ToGather--the man *does not* let up on the energy
level of his sets; and he has a huge following.

I stand by my earlier comments. 

And to anyone who has complained about an evening full of high bpm
sets, I'd also like to point out that an
evening full of progressive house, with 4 DJs playing at the same
bpm for 6 hours, gets old extremely fast. Especially when you've 
heard the same sets for six months. (If I hear "Raise your hands"
*one* more time from that same DJ, I'm gonna scream!)  These people
have access to the best music from all over the world; I regard it
as their responsibility to the scene to show the 'masses' what music
is out there.  If I can find "Plastic Dreams" in January in NY, they
sure can. It took the majors four months to break that song. Imagine
the fun we'd all have if the major events broke more new songs and
genres!

So, I ask all who have spoken or thought in terms of diversity of 
music to:

1) support events with diverse styles
2) support DJs who spin diverse styles during their sets
3) rag on the organizers for more diversity
4) encourage your friends to expand their horizons
-- 
Bryce Ryan ------------ AMBIANCE ----------- brycer@netcom.com
Sound surrounds you like Liquid Air ------- Every Month ------
415-487-8497 -- Audio by Sound Vision -- Flyer by Dave Scruton

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 20:47:34 1993
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From: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 20:47:24 -0700
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: fast music != speed (out East anyway)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I totally respect people's opinions on the high bpm issue (after all,
what I really want is to be able to give people a choice, but not
to convince them make the choice a certain way), but I want to say 
something:

I don't know about the West Coast, but out East a LARGE number of us 
dance quite well to fast music WITHOUT taking speed or other "speedy" 
drugs.  Yes, the dance is rather twitchy -- but some people (myself
included) have been seen to be moving dipping spinning at quite high
speeds when wrapped up in the music and propelled by the bass bin.

I don't personally know anyone out East who does speed while raving.  
As a purveyor and consumer of fast music, I am upset by insinuations 
that fast music == speed freaks.  

I certainly have never taken speed in my entire life.

And yes, it is rather hard to dance to really fast music for more than 
two or three hours at a time . . . our raves usually build up to 
hardtrance/hardcore for a set or three (and a set is one hour back East), 
and then glide down through slower trance, acid, house, and tribal.  So 
please don't assume all we have is high-speed music all night either, 
because 100% hardcore (german or english style) nights are the exception 
rather than the norm.

My friend Heather was at Universe/UK and she told me there were *7* tents
of music going simultaneously -- an ambient tent, a hardcore (german)
tent, a jungle tent, a breakbeat tent, house, tribal, etc.  People had a
huge choice of what they could hear at any one time.  And some people did
park themselves in one tent, but many others roamed them all, giving many
things a try, sort of like a buffet dinner or something.  Perhaps a 
Universe/SF set up in such a way would work, too, giving people a chance to
try different things without being locked into a choice they decide they
*don't* like.

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 21:14:25 1993
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From: dionf@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Francois Dion)
Message-Id: <9309220412.AA04588@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Guns and my mailbox
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 00:12:36 -0400 (EDT)
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Yikes, logging in remote to kill the 200 messages. Please dont send me weird
email because i suggested gun control...

I just said that we had gun control here (you can still buy a gun after you
get the proper permit and pass a course on safety and firearms). So you still
have a choice. but people too lazy to get the proper permits cant go and buy
a firearm anywhere. I also dont think our cultures are that much different, so
if we project the deaths by bullet in Canada to the US, with the same legisla-
tion it should go down from 35000 to 3500 death by bullet, without removing
any rights. Of course, with so many guns in circulation, it would take a lot
of years to actually drop. Anyway... argumentation is not very usefull on this
subject. Actions have to be taken (not sending me hate mail. flames are ok, but
calling me faschist will not resolve anything).

Ciao,
-- 
Francois Dion
    '  _   _   _ 
 CISM (_) (_)  _) FM       Montreal , Canada       Email: CISM@ERE.UMontreal.CA
      (_)  / . _)             10000 Watts          Telephone no: (514) 343-7511
_______________________________________________________________________________
Audio-C-DJ-Fractals-Future-Label-Multimedia-Music-Radio-Rave-Video-VR-Volvo-...



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 21:29:29 1993
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From: dionf@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Francois Dion)
Message-Id: <9309220427.AA04781@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: 190... maybe
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 00:27:40 -0400 (EDT)
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Some song actually feel fast but are slow and vice versa (he, while i am
remotely logged, i said why not say a word on that issue too! :P ). For ex:
i'm currently listening to disintegration (live) by The Cure. What's your bpm
guess on this? 90, 100? Nope, it's 142! Love missile by PWEI? 202!
Boing by Fox present? 151! (it does feel much faster). I know acid at 125 and
i know house at 145. I even have hard trance at 180. Oh, at let's see. You know
N-Joi malfunction? well you can spin and jump and twirl and whatever, and it's
not 120 bpm like it feels, it's 139. In any case, i cant really imagine someone
doing a whole set of 190 bpm songs (there are not that much!).

As for drugs, well most people i know dont take drugs and can easily dance
(not just pogo) at 140 bpm. And myself? well except for aspirins or a beer
once in a while i do not take drugs and can dance on anything i play. If i
cant dance it i will not play it. Be it from ambient to hardcore. (I'm usually
in the 126-160 bpm bracket with once in a while extremes).

Ciao,
-- 
Francois Dion
    '  _   _   _ 
 CISM (_) (_)  _) FM       Montreal , Canada       Email: CISM@ERE.UMontreal.CA
      (_)  / . _)             10000 Watts          Telephone no: (514) 343-7511
_______________________________________________________________________________
Audio-C-DJ-Fractals-Future-Label-Multimedia-Music-Radio-Rave-Video-VR-Volvo-...



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 22:39:46 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: guns and *my* mailbox...
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 22:42:00 -0700
From: doom@banneker.Stanford.EDU
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Allow me to remind you folks about a few interesting unix
newsgroups: 

 talk.politics.guns
 ba.politics
 rec.guns

Not to mention an interesting bay area/california firearms
mailing list you could subscribe to (the ba list includes 
the ca traffic):

 ba-firearms-request@shell.portal.com  
 ca-firearms-request@shell.portal.com  

And I guess there's a texas-area firearms mailing list that
you folks from canada and the UK might be interested in
checking out. 

By the way, sorry if you've heard me say this before: but
existing in a common community doesn't give you the right
flood people's mailboxes with your opinions on any random
topic.  Try and have some respect for your neighbors, and 
show some restraint, huh?  


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 21 23:55:27 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 2:55:21 EDT
From: Monica Tauriello <monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Cc: jsl@netcom.com
Subject: more hardcore to hurt you :)
Message-Id: <CMM-RU.1.3.748680921.monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

i don't know what hardcore events you've attended, john, where most people
were on speed, but that hasn't been my experience at all - not that i
interviewed everyone to see what they were on or anything... personally i use
stimulants to help me with not just hardcore, but also house, trance etfc.
(actually, ESPECIALLY house, becuz i'm more likely to get bored and tired),
but NATURAL stimulants - monicat may look like she's on speed, but look,
folx, it's just guarana! (or ginseng, or ma huang....)

and just what IS this pogo dance? do you just mean jumping up and down? fuck
- i dance to hard, fast musick all the time and i don't just jump up and down
(and even if i did, so what? as my friend nancy would say about fetishes:
whatever works...)

i also think it's really presumptuous to say that 140 bpm musick has run its
course here, especially when, and i guess i'm repeating myself from my last
post but oh well, i've spoken to so many people who want something harder
than the usual 120 and who appreciate laura and DRC ...

but you're right, john, if you don't enjoy it you can stay home or go to
other events or whatever while i reach nirvana in hard acid bliss - just
don't assume that hardcore is necessarily "meth music."

monicat
"i'm a secretary and i type all day" :)

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 00:25:15 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 3:25:09 EDT
From: Monica Tauriello <monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: acieed!!!!
Message-Id: <CMM-RU.1.3.748682709.monicat@gandalf.rutgers.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

BTW, my friend Merlin is starting a new club/afterparty in the DNA Lounge on
sat. morns starting at 2am and going til noon for all you acid, trance, and
techno junkies out there who are over 21 - it's $5 and starts on oct. 2 -
Merlin's also very much interested in widening our musickal choices within sf
so i wanted to mention it... oh - it's called LOST IT and the djs oct 2 will
be steve mitchel, dutch, richie, and la paix ....

:)
monicat

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 00:40:03 1993
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From: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
Message-Id: <9309220741.AA14981@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: perhaps a less religious viewpoint on high BPM...
To: asah@cs.berkeley.edu
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 01:41:43 -0600 (MDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers)
In-Reply-To: <9309220300.AA01650@ginsberg.CS.Berkeley.EDU> from "asah@ginsberg.cs.berkeley.edu" at Sep 21, 93 08:00:02 pm
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> I'm in agreement with the diversity-is-great crowd.  But I do think there
>   is a legit beef with 140+.  Namely, dancing to that kind of pace is
>   --tiring-- (unless, as jsl@netcom.com suggests), you're on speed or some
>   equivalent, or just jingling...


...or just in good shape.  I don't do speed or ephedrine or even caffeine
when I'm out raving.  Eating well, catching a nap before going out, and 
leading a stress free life, all allow me to keep up with faster bpms.

Taking care of yourself also has the added advantages of helping avoid
sickness and allowing faster recovery times after a hard night or weekend of
dancing and sleep deprivation.

As far as what type of music is better -- listen to what makes you happy.  I
like different flavors of music for different moods.  Be open minded,
experiment and go with the flow.  Happiness starts inside and spreads
outwards -- music flows from within.



-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 00:47:30 1993
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From: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
Message-Id: <9309220749.AA15311@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: 190 Huh?
To: brycer@netcom.com
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 01:49:12 -0600 (MDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers)
In-Reply-To: <9309211755.AA24943@netcom.netcom.com> from "Bryce Ryan" at Sep 21, 93 10:55:56 am
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> And frankly, Goa has *no*
> skill at mixing, so no wonder the dance floor clears.  He does have a
> good following, though, so he must be doing *something* right. 

Yes, Goa Gil's mixing skills are non-existent, especially with vinyl.  There
is nothing like a 140 bpm train wreck to snap you out of a trance and hard!
Personally, I love his music, so I'll just clench my teeth til it's over.  

Judge not, lest we be judged ourselves (or some such cliched quote :)


-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 01:44:27 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 01:44:19 -0700
In-Reply-To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
       "190 Huh again" (Sep 21,  7:40pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: 190 Huh again
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Sep 21,  7:40pm, you proclaimed:
} The 140+ BPM has, IMO, run it's course here.  

Huh?  It's barely started!  Short attention span I guess :)

} The people who have attended
} these events have been mostly amped up on speed...I've seen 'em.  

You should be a cop, you seem to be really good at telling what people
are on by looks :)  I really have to disagree with you here; and this
isn't a matter of opinion, or if it were I wouldn't be replying, I'd
be thinking "he has his opinion and I have mine".  This is to contradict
what you say, because in *my* experience, the harder parties recently
(YSH's, which I've never seen you at), various renegades, and even the
most recent Basics (which had stretches of nice hard stuff around 2am,
before Spun dug into his bassy/electro set), HAVEN'T had any sizeable
number of speed tweakers.  And at all of these parties, the hard fast
parts were pretty much limited to one set or so.

} There is
} little you can do with your body at those speeds otehr than the arrythmic
} "pogo" dance.  And speed is great for that type of twitchyness.

This comment has a small amount of truth, but that's only because you and
most others in SF don't know how to dance at those speeds.  Don't try
to do the full body motions and arm swings that you can at 120 or 130;
many people only move on every other beat, in effect dancing similar to
how they would at 80bpm.  There's a lot of creativity in it.  Besides,
who cares how you dance at a rave?  One thing most people like about raves
is that no one CARES how you dnce, and most people don't try to show off,
they just try to channel the music through them, and are usually lost in
their own world when dancing.

} (I HATE speed.  It is a stupid drug that I deplore.  I don't like to be
} around those that are on it, don't like to see people dance whilst on it,
} and I hate to see those buggers come back to earth a complete mess.  If I
} had my way the shit would disappear from the planet, but everyone has their
} drug of choice.  I do wish people would lay off the stuff.

I couldn't agree more.  It's not really good as a *dance party* drug, the
same way nitrous isn't.  Or crack or cocaine or heroin, or ketamine.  But
to be honest if someone looks like they're gonna have trouble making that
1 1/2 hour drive home in the morning, I'd MUCH rather they have something to
keep them awake for the drive than risk crashing the car.  And as I can
relate from experience, there is not a small market in amphetamines for
college students, particularly in med school.  

} I am not a music elitist, but I DO HATE that style of music(190+).  ACID is
} different and for the most part, quite danceable ( until you get up to
} about 140+, then you have no choice but to pogo!).

no, YOU have no choice but to pogo, coz you don't seem to even consider the
possibility that there might be other ways to enjoy the music than in the
context of 120-140 bpm house.  I must admit I probably would find it very
hard to do anything but nod my head at 190+, but if I halve it I get 95, a
nice uppity reggae or electro speed.  There's also a LOT of range between
140 and 190 BPM, something you seem to ignore.

} (this whole elitist schtick is waaaay old gents/ladies.  Look, if someone
} doesn't like something, and has a preference for something else, and is
} strong in that opinion, that is not elitism.  It is called "having a
} preference".  And every human being is entitled to such without some sorry
} label being attached to his/her persona!  - Thanks)

You're mostly right, it is old... so quit thinking that anyone dancing
to anything above 140 is by association a speed freak.  Preferences are
fine, but if I feel they are based on silly criteria I can say so.  
Proscribing your tastes around pure BPM's is like saying you don't like
books shorter than 120 pages or longer than 160 :)

} Hell if you like it, great, blow a gasket, have fun!  I cannot have fun,
} could not have fun, nor would want to have fun at such speeds...unless of
} course I am in a Ferrari Testosterona on 280 South/Northbound going around
} 190+mph.
} 
} Hardcore, I can leave home without it....ANYTIME!!!

That's kinda funny, because I remember the only Vortex I went to at
174 King around the beginning of the year, and leaving at one point
because the music had taken a very hardcore, and very boring, turn for
about an hour from 4 to 5, after my energy hAd run its course and I
was way too spent for it.

} P.S.  I do really love trippy acid sets, trippy ambient sets, trippy
} anything sets, trance, tribal, house, garage, hip-house, anything, even
} super-divaesque of late, but never 190+.  

I like all that too!  But I think SF has been missing a crucial
element in its rush and desire to be "different" from the rest of the
world.  Thinking now upon it, I think my anathema to hardcore had been
based upon always associating the pounding 909 kick and dissonant
chords and all the other stereotypical elements of hardcore circa 1992
with insophistication and a dark step away from the happy vibe I felt
at most SF sets (song with names like "Mother Fucker Man", etc) .  But
it took some exposure to music, despite my initial feelings against
it, to realize the bad attitude had been just about completely dropped
while still maintaining a very nice sinister side, the kind of sinister
that makes you smile.... anyways, I now fully enjoy it as a part of a
night's set, and even have been hearing elements of it in recent Jeno
and other sets. 

John should NOT be flamed for not liking the usual constituents of
hardcore music, just as you shouldn't flame me for professing to not
be crazy about Country music, for example.  But just as I really liked
the Cowboy Junkie's first album, which was VERY country-influence, I
hope John "keeps the door open" so to speak.  But then again, what do
I care. :)

	Brian



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
....So hating breakbeat because of northeastern club kids makes about
as much sense as hating classical because the musicians who made it
are mostly all dead. - Laura La Gassa


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 02:35:26 1993
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Via: uk.ac.bristol.irix; Wed, 22 Sep 1993 10:35:13 +0100
From: Miles Pearce <Miles.Pearce@bristol.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <667.9309221034@irix.bristol.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Gun control
To: gwh@lurnix.com
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 10:34:48 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309211949.AA09364@krupke.lurnix.com> from "gwh@lurnix.com" at Sep 21, 93 12:49:06 pm
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> 
> I suggest you talk to some people who've been shot or stabbed
> or even just mugged and ask them about what they think about
> self defense.  As a victim of some of the above, I know that
> nobody's around to help you, including police; that there are
> people out there willing to hurt and kill you for really
> trivial reasons; that I do not like the possibility of it
> happening again (at this point, I'm pushing my luck on
> having survived everything that's happened to me).
> 
> -george
> 

It's sad that a society tainted by gunlore makes survival a question. We
have a problem in our cities too, I got mugged, but I'm glad neither party
packed a piece because one of us would have died.

Miles

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 03:03:26 1993
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From: trance@netcom.com (Tamara Palmer)
Message-Id: <9309221003.AA23787@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Adieu
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sfraves)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 3:03:50 PDT
Cc: mcg@netcom.com, lisha@soda.berkeley.edu
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Well, the time has come for me to start school again and so with great joy AND
great sadness I am moving back to Los Angeles for the school year. I want to
thank everyone I have been able to spend time with up here for being such 
wonderful, genuine people. I have been very privileged to meet and make a lot
of new friends this summer, and strengthen some of my older friendships. I will
be back on October 15th to spin at the next Liquid Air (with some fast and
slow BPMs!) so I hope to see you all there. Good luck on the Golden Gate park
celebration, I know it will be lots of fun. And, above all, come visit me in 
LA!

BTW, I will still have my netcom account as well as izzyzi5@mvs.oac.ucla.edu
so please feel free to let me know how you're doing. I will also still be
subscribed to sfraves, so you haven't heard the last of my big mouth. :)

Groove magically, Y'all...


-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
                                Tamara Palmer
                              trance@netcom.com
                            * La Vie est Musique *
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 04:51:01 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:51:57 BST
Message-Id: <10151.9309221151@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: gwh@lurnix.lurnix.com
Cc: roy%harlequin.co.uk%uunet@uunet.uu.net, csc@pilot.njin.net,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, gwh@uunet.uu.net
In-Reply-To: gwh@lurnix.lurnix.com's message of Tue, 21 Sep 93 12:49:06 -0700 <9309211949.AA09364@krupke.lurnix.com>
Subject: Re: Gun control 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  gwh> Stop believing movies...

  gwh> Laser sights are found mostly on shotguns and pistols these days.
  gwh> It makes it easier to aim at night (and during the day)...
  gwh> the primary use is at close range.  Thinking that Sean was
  gwh> discussing offing people a block away is ignorance of 
  gwh> firearms.

I wasn't seriously suggesting that Sean was proposing taking out
people a few blocks away.  But, certainly, I am ignorant of firearms.
That's because I don't live in a gun culture.

  gwh> I suggest you talk to some people who've been shot or stabbed
  gwh> or even just mugged and ask them about what they think about
  gwh> self defense.  As a victim of some of the above, I know that
  gwh> nobody's around to help you, including police; that there are
  gwh> people out there willing to hurt and kill you for really
  gwh> trivial reasons; that I do not like the possibility of it
  gwh> happening again (at this point, I'm pushing my luck on
  gwh> having survived everything that's happened to me).

I still don't get it.  How many people have to die unnecessarily
before the US realises that guns are a bad thing?  Most people don't
think rationally in a crisis situation.  Even if they've been
specially trained, they're likely to overreact.  If you've got a gun
on you, and you know how to use it, you're likely to kill someone out
of fear, rather than out of genuine necessity.  I don't trust myself
to make the decission as to when to shoot someone.  And I don't trust
most people out there, either.  Maybe I'm walking down a dark street,
and I bump into someone.  He panics, and shoots me....

The other problem is that (in the UK) the majority of murders are not
premeditated.  People get angry, and do stupid things in the heat of
the moment.  If they have a gun, they're more likely to do something
stupid, that they'll regret later.  In a non gun-owning society,
they'll probably just end up beating someone up....  How many
shootings result from, say, a man finding his wife with another man?
How many similar incidents are there in the UK?  I don't have the
statistics, but I'd be surprised if they don't surport my point.

It's not that our society is fundamentally less violent than yours.
It's just that gun ownership escalates violent disputes to a higher
level....

	Cosmic

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 04:53:47 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:54:36 BST
Message-Id: <10197.9309221154@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: gwh@lurnix.com
Cc: dhchung%us.oracle.com%uunet@uunet.uu.net, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        gwh@lurnix.com
In-Reply-To: gwh@lurnix.com's message of Tue, 21 Sep 93 12:57:34 -0700 <9309211957.AA09435@krupke.lurnix.com>
Subject: Re: gang violence 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  gwh> It's not such a pretty friendly world out there.  That's sad,
  gwh> but that's reality 8-(.

But that's a cop out answer.  DO you want to change things?

	roy




From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 05:22:30 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 13:23:35 BST
Message-Id: <10893.9309221223@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net
Cc: csc@pilot.njin.net, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Sean Casey's message of Tue, 21 Sep 93 16:42:30 EDT <9309212042.AA07542@pilot.njin.net>
Subject: Re: Gun control
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  Sean> Death or great bodily harm, to you or anyone else you're
  Sean> around.  People don't fool around with intruders here. Call it
  Sean> American attitude or whatever you want, but we consider our
  Sean> homes inviolate.  Most people here would feel perfectly
  Sean> justified killing someone about to kill or greatly injure them
  Sean> or someone they loved. Perhaps what we're seeing is a
  Sean> difference in societal attitudes about one's space and one's
  Sean> body.

Actually, I don't think so.  English law has the notion of using
"reasonable force" to defend yourself.  That can include killing
someone.

  Sean> I don't *care* if an intruder is lethally armed or not. All that
  Sean> matters is that a reasonable person thinks they're in imminent danger
  Sean> of great bodily harm. Once again, perhaps we just have different
  Sean> societal attitudes.

What worries me is how often people are going to get scared, and
overreact.  Is it commonplace for unarmed criminals to get shot
because their victims get scared that they *might* be armed...?

  Sean> Now personally, I'd like to carry Grizzly Bear Strength pepper
  Sean> spray.  It doesn't maim or kill, and it's very effective.
  Sean> Hurts a lot more too, which might function as some operant
  Sean> conditioning.

Now that i can relate to.  It's making me sick the number of times
people use the euphamism "defence" when talking about an offensive
weapon.

  Sean> Laser sighted pistols. Laser sights are inexpensive nowdays,
  Sean> greatly reduce the chance of missing (and hitting innocents),
  Sean> and have a psychological factor.

Yep, i guess (as someone else pointed out) I'm just ignorant aobut
firearms.


  Sean> And you've still got it backwards.  Taking away guns from
  Sean> honest civilians (not possible in these times) will not stop
  Sean> criminals, will not change things. It has to be done the other
  Sean> way around.

I think you're putting words into my mouth here.  I'm not necessarily
saying gun contorl will work.  All I'm trying to argue is that the
*problem* is gun ownership.  I don't know how to solve that problem.

Put it another way.  If you introduced gun control, and then magically
confiscated all the guns in circulation, do you think that would
work...?  Yep, people would still be able to get hold of guns smuggled
into the country on the black market, but the numbers would be
small....

Now in reality, achieving low gun ownership is hard, because of the
number of guns in circulation.  I accept that in a society where all
the criminals have guns, gun control laws may actually make things
worse.  But do you at least accept that gun ownership is a *problem*,
and that the *goal* should be to work towards a society where guns are
unusual, both amongst honest citizens, and amongst criminals.

Or is the idea of a non-gun-owning society just not the american way...

	Cosmic

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 05:44:45 1993
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From: Oozing Sincerity...  22-Sep-1993 1344 <gary@ayrmis.enet.dec.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Apparently-To: sfraves@techno.stanford.edu
Subject: Assorted ramblings from Scotland
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


	Ok, doubt I've ever contributed to this list before... (Well
	actually I did, couple of days ago, but some mail monster
	got its grubby little hands on it before it made the list)

	So I'm Gary, from Ayr, Scotland.

	Hello...

	I don't live in a 'gun culture', never fired, owned or had 
	any sort of need for a gun. I don't agree that guns should
	be banned in America. Guess I'd better support that view.

	But first, cross culture comparisons are often not completely
	valid. Personally I find adultry and theft to be activites
	best discouraged, but I'm not for the public flogging of
	straying partners and the removal of extremites from the
	convicted thief. Good deterents I'm sure, but too my 
	mind, a bit extreme. 
	
	To my mind punishing innocent people because of the activites
	of others is a bit extreme as well. Thats what your doing
	when you take away other peoples property, or rights.

	See thats what a gun is, property, an object. And I beleive
	the constitution of America allows the individual to own
	such property. People who want to ban guns want to take 
	away that right.

	You see people in America have always owned guns, unlike 
	us natives of the united kingdom, the clamour to ban them
	is a fairly recent thing, the escalating violence is a 
	recent thing. Doesn't this point to something other then
	guns as the source of the problem ?

	Guns deter crime. I beleive that in Florida, not too long
	ago, gun laws were relaxed to deter the rising violent 
	crime. It worked, the incidence of violent crime, rape 
	and assault, mugging and murder, went down.

	To combat the same problem many States placed more 
	restrictions on gun ownership, made it harder to get a
	gun. This didn't work, the crime rate continued to 
	escelate.

	This, as far as I know, if fact. Not speculation like 'In
	the UK...' and assuming that similar action will have
	the same aeffect in the US.

	Look at the figures for firearm realted deaths in the 
	United States, at first they'll seem alarmingly high. Of
	course they are. But look beyond that, look at the amount
	of crime commited by people using legally bought and
	owned guns, the very same guns that some people are intent
	on banning, I think you'll find your left with a very
	small number.

	Whatever, I'll get off my soapbox, If people are getting
	tired of this thread maybe it should be taken to mail.
	I'll be more than happy to debate with anyone who doesn't
	share my views...

	ObRaves - Ack, can't say I'm fond of the Faster-Faster
	More-More high BPM stuff, though to each his own and all
	that.

	More later,
	Gary				

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 07:45:12 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 07:34:39 PDT
From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309221434.AA06859@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: asah@cs.berkeley.edu, brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com
Subject: Re: perhaps a less religious viewpoint on high BPM...
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
> 
> > I'm in agreement with the diversity-is-great crowd.  But I do think there
> >   is a legit beef with 140+.  Namely, dancing to that kind of pace is
> >   --tiring-- (unless, as jsl@netcom.com suggests), you're on speed or some
> >   equivalent, or just jingling...
> 
> 
> ...or just in good shape.  I don't do speed or ephedrine or even caffeine
> when I'm out raving.  Eating well, catching a nap before going out, and 
> leading a stress free life, all allow me to keep up with faster bpms.

Well I don't take speed, haven't taken E or A in a couple of months
and don't even use caffine.  Myy energy source come from getting
plenty of exercise, meditation and doing yoga but that's another story.
(Actually for all you crunchies out there, my kundalini is active which
is why I can dance all night without drugs)

The bottom line for me is whether the music sends me into Trance state.
It takes a subtle combination of factors but basically I have to be able
to set up a "standing wave pattern" with the music, my brain/mind and with
my body.  I can't seem to do this if the BPMs are to fast, (I do believe
that you can most likely get there through "pogoing"  though) and for me if I'm
not tranced, I'm not having a good time :)

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 08:25:40 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 02:14:58 PDT
From: "Scott L. Burson" <gyro@zeta-soft.com>
Message-Id: <9309220914.AA20505@zeta-soft.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Sue Raisty's message of Fri, 17 Sep 93 17:58:49 PDT <9309180058.AA02153@berlioz.nsc.com>
Subject: Freedom
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


   Date: Fri, 17 Sep 93 17:58:49 PDT
   From: Sue Raisty  <raisty@berlioz.nsc.com>

   I (susan raisty) said this about the US constitution:
   --> >founded with the purpose to protect the liberties of the people!
   --> >That's why you're supposed to be innocent until proved guilty in
   --> the >US. We have to try to make today's government follow those
   --> principles, >and when we encourage them to take any of our
   --> freedoms away we are >going down the wrong path.


   Then (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence) jamiel said this:
   --> I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but I assume that you
   --> agree that changes to the constitution over time makes sense- you
   --> know, things like oh, say, women's right to vote. How about that
   --> bit about people with non-white skin being equal citizens? Things
   --> like that. 

   --> jamiel@sybase.com "Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank

   There is a fundamental difference between ammending the constitution
   to allow women and minorities vote and removing an ammendment from the
   bill of rights - the right to bear arms in this case.  One grants MORE
   liberties to the citizens and the other TAKES them away.  

There is a sentence in the Constitution that says, in effect, that the fact
that certain rights are specifically listed does not mean that these are all
the rights we have.  It was clearly the intention of the Founders that future
generations be able to add new rights as necessary.  Somebody here has already
spoken of the right to safety and I agree: I think there is a fundamental
right to be reasonably safe, not only from the government, but from one's
fellow citizens.

Where rights conflict they must be weighed against each other.  I wouldn't
want to suggest that this is an easy or simple process.  Consider for instance
the right to due process of law.  We hold this right very dear -- at least, I
hope we do -- but we say that it is alright for a police officer to shoot
someone in self-defense or defense of others, because if someone is in the
midst of the act of trying to kill people, we consider that the lives of their
potential victims outweigh their right to due process.  I think this is as it
should be.

However, where the right to keep and bear arms conflicts with the right to
reasonable safety, I think things are grossly out of whack.  I think we
greatly overvalue the right to bear arms, which happens to be enumerated in
the Constitution, and devalue the right to safety, which although it is not
mentioned specifically there is arguably still a right.  (Well, some would
argue that there isn't actually any conflict -- "guns don't kill people,
people kill people" -- but I think that is ridiculous, just like the tobacco
industry forever trying to argue that smoking has no negative health
consequences.)

Anyway, the point of all this is that there can be justification for
curtailing one right if it collides with another.

The other funny thing about the Second Amendment, of course, is the
justification within its wording.  [Roughly] "A well-prepared militia being
essential to the security of a free people, the right to keep and bear arms
shall not be infringed."  It is a little hard to argue (though some, of
course, do) that that justification did not become obsolete at least 50 years
ago.  The Founders did not conceive of tanks, fighter planes, helicopter
gunships, or nuclear weapons.  Or teenage gang violence, or carjackings.

I'm not calling for that amendment to be deleted entirely, but I do urge and
hope that it will be interpreted in a different light.

-- Scott

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 08:42:38 1993
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To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: 190 Huh again
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>
>} The people who have attended
>} these events have been mostly amped up on speed...I've seen 'em.  
>
>You should be a cop, you seem to be really good at telling what people
>are on by looks :)

My man...it is quite simple actually.  I look around ANY party to see who I
am about to deal with and who the crowd is.  I don't just go to a party,
put my stuff down, and ignore my surroundings.  It is because I am fully
aware of my surroundings that for the most part I have had few if any
problems at parties (esp with other party goers).  It is usually the person
, not noticing his surroundings/situation, that ends up in a lot of
trouble.  The fact that I have been to enough parties to tell WHAT type of
party I am attending does not make me a cop.  If you like to be completely
unaware of whats going on around you then fine.  I prefer to be fully
informed/aware. That's all that statement was about.  If I were a cop the
first people I would have arrested are 21-- in a 21+ club (; !!! 

> I really have to disagree with you here; 

What else is new.

>and this
>isn't a matter of opinion, or if it were I wouldn't be replying, I'd
>be thinking "he has his opinion and I have mine".  This is to contradict
>what you say, because in *my* experience, the harder parties recently
>(YSH's, which I've never seen you at), various renegades, and even the
>most recent Basics (which had stretches of nice hard stuff around 2am,
>before Spun dug into his bassy/electro set), HAVEN'T had any sizeable
>number of speed tweakers.  And at all of these parties, the hard fast
>parts were pretty much limited to one set or so.

Let's start with the comment about YSH.  Homebrew, YSH is on, uh, Thursday,
right?  Well Mon-Fri are workdays for me.  I am currently not in school
(unlike yourself), and have to put in a good 40+ hours a week programming
the Macintosh (the REAL world is much more diffcult than any course at Cal,
hate to tell you).
Along with that I have a family, something that means much more to me than
YSH or any party.  The fact I have not gone to a YSH means diddly, to me or
anyone else.  I would like to go, but my going-out is usually relgated to
Fri-Sun, since thatis the weekend, and that is the time I have avail to go
out. In closing, even tho YSH may be a good party, I may never
attend...why?  It's on a weekday.  And until I can get a Friday off (which
I can do at any time BTW, but to do it for a party is IMO weakness), YSH is
out for me.  So if you and others want to beat that dead horse (the subject
of "Hey, you should come to YSH!" and "Hey, why haven't you come to YSH?"
and the usual "YSH...you've never been" is really old as well), be my
guest.  

Uh sir, please do not confuse a hard set with hardcore. When I say hardcore
I mean 140+ BPM (150 is more like it).  A hard set on the other hand can be
played at slower speeds, and I have no problem with that style....but let's
keep on dragging this dead horse...you push, I'll pull.
>
>} There is
>} little you can do with your body at those speeds otehr than the arrythmic
>} "pogo" dance.  And speed is great for that type of twitchyness.
>
>This comment has a small amount of truth, but that's only because you and
>most others in SF don't know how to dance at those speeds.

Dude, the only person who I have seen dance, am an convinced of complete
arythmia is, YOU.  Now sonny, if you want to have a nice Danny Terrio dance
contest, we can go at it anytime.  If you want to TRY to do the fancy
footworks, we'll clear the dancefloor and you can start, I'll finish.  In
any case thanks for the judgements about SF dancers.  For someone who has
never even come close to dancing, you sure do know alot about it ;)

Flaming aside.  SF & SJ has some of the BEST dancers around.  Most of the
hokey dokes from Concord, and other non-ethnic East Bay regions are by far
the worst occupiers of space on ANY dancefloor.  Any person who spends
anytime on the dancefloor and has gotten a chance to meet anyone really
going off knows this.  BTW, this is not a flame, but I have seen John D. on
the dancefloor, and I want to say right now, he does NOT live in SF/SJ (he
even makes YOU look good Brian, and that is no small feat, or should I say
feet!)! (;  Basics, of late, has been full of arythmia!

>There's a lot of creativity in it.  Besides,
>who cares how you dance at a rave?

We all do.  There have been many posts about people who are rude at
parties, people who watch the "hoofers" as a spectator sport, etc.  I have
even seen the famed SFR John D. "push" someone at the last Funky Techno. 
Hel,l he was catching a groove and got caught up in the beat, but he did
push somebody.  So yeah, I care how people dance, cuz some people (esp the
arythmics), have a tendency to have little timing, and as a result, bump in
to many people.

>One thing most people like about raves
>is that no one CARES how you dnce, and most people don't try to show off,
>they just try to channel the music through them, and are usually lost in
>their own world when dancing.

So what happens when planets collide?

>There's also a LOT of range between
>140 and 190 BPM, something you seem to ignore.

Nope I'm quite aware of it.  I understand it is all how it's put together. 
A proper backbeat can make 140 seem like 120.  There are many techniques of
which I am fully aware.  But thanks for the info....

>
>} (this whole elitist schtick is waaaay old gents/ladies.  Look, if someone
>} doesn't like something, and has a preference for something else, and is
>} strong in that opinion, that is not elitism.  It is called "having a
>} preference".  And every human being is entitled to such without some sorry
>} label being attached to his/her persona!  - Thanks)
>
>You're mostly right, it is old... so quit thinking that anyone dancing
>to anything above 140 is by association a speed freak.

You made the association, I did not.  I said I went to parties where 140+
was the norm, and the party was speed induced.  Since I do not take spped,
and I attended and danced, I am far from thinking that EVRYONE who attends
such events are speed freaks, me being there and dancing proves that.  But
to say a party has a high speed factor, or a high e factor, or high acid
factor, is only a statement of what is observed.  Not necessarily an
indictment.  Relax, smoke a bowl!  Oh yeah, thanks for telling me how/what
to think.

>Preferences are
>fine, but if I feel they are based on silly criteria I can say so.

You sure can.  Even if your criteria for judging such things to be silly is
silly I say "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead Brain!".  We still have
50 yards to go, let's switch off, I'll push, you pull...
  
>Proscribing your tastes around pure BPM's is like saying you don't like
>books shorter than 120 pages or longer than 160 :)

In YOUR opinion.  The two are completely different, therefore your analogy
is, to say the least, misguided.  I do not like 140+ because I don't like
it.  I have heard enough of it to say that.  That does not mean that
anything above 140+ I won't at least give a try, but I do know what BPM's I
like, and try to stick within that realm.  Once again, a preference.  As
for judging my tastes, only I can do that.  But you can watch if you want
to! ;)

>That's kinda funny, because I remember the only Vortex I went to at
>174 King around the beginning of the year, and leaving at one point
>because the music had taken a very hardcore, and very boring, turn for
>about an hour from 4 to 5, after my energy hAd run its course and I
>was way too spent for it.

This is the usual tack, say something about Vortex.  Should I bite? ( Yeah,
I will, just for kicks!).  So my learned friend, who was playing?  Once
again, I have been to EVERY Vortex ever thrown, I know exactly what the
DJ's have played at each.  None has ever played a hardcore set, EVER.  They
have never gone above 140-150, so I don't consider anything ever played
there to be hardcore.  Most of the time things are trippy, acid laced,
depp-trance, etc. etc., but never hardcore.  Hard yes, but not hardcore. 
As for your energy, you should have had a hit of some speed, since we know
"only the hardcor...oops headstrong" ;).  I would not have noticed, really
I wouldn't. 

>I like all that too!  But I think SF has been missing a crucial
>element in its rush and desire to be "different" from the rest of the
>world.

Maybe you missed out when it came through?  I dunno.  SF is doing quite
well IMO, and will continue to get better as time marches on.  We are much
farther along and still the scene has not crumbled, unlike LA, whose ripoff
artists has killed amost everything there.

>Thinking now upon it, I think my anathema to hardcore had been
>based upon always associating the pounding 909 kick and dissonant
>chords and all the other stereotypical elements of hardcore circa 1992
>with insophistication and a dark step away from the happy vibe I felt
>at most SF sets (song with names like "Mother Fucker Man", etc) .  But
>it took some exposure to music, despite my initial feelings against
>it, to realize the bad attitude had been just about completely dropped
>while still maintaining a very nice sinister side, the kind of sinister
>that makes you smile.... anyways, I now fully enjoy it as a part of a
>night's set, and even have been hearing elements of it in recent Jeno
>and other sets. 
>
>John should NOT be flamed for not liking the usual constituents of
>hardcore music...I
>hope John "keeps the door open" so to speak.  But then again, what do
>I care. :)
>
>        Brian

I would suggest a new moniker for you laddie-buck: The Ambassador.  Yeah, I
kinda like it.  Kinda like "Negotiations have failed for the moment, but we
will re-convene at a leter date to work out a compromise."  Nice touch
Brian, nice touch.  I would close the door now, but your foot is in the
way.

Disclaimer to the Crunchster:  Nothing personal. 

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 08:58:11 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309221557.AA10440@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Assorted ramblings from Scotland
To: gary@ayrmis.enet.dec.com (Oozing Sincerity...  22-Sep-1993 1344)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 8:57:19 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309221244.AA28556@enet-gw.pa.dec.com>; from "Oozing Sincerity...  22-Sep-1993 1344" at Sep 22, 93 5:44 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Oozing Sincerity...  22-Sep-1993 1344 sez:
> 
> 	Look at the figures for firearm realted deaths in the 
> 	United States, at first they'll seem alarmingly high. Of
> 	course they are. But look beyond that, look at the amount
> 	of crime commited by people using legally bought and
> 	owned guns, the very same guns that some people are intent
> 	on banning, I think you'll find your left with a very
> 	small number.
> 

Thanks for your input, Gary.

I only want to say three more things about all this.  They're just data
points, I don't want to give any opinion on gun guntrol.

1.  By far the most people killed by handguns in america are killed by
    their own or an associate's handgun.  The FBI published statistics
    on this. 

2.  In your own home you are at a tremendous advantage against an
    intruder.  They have (likely) never been there before.
    Additionally, other weapons can be as or more effective in these
    circumstances.  And after all, do you really want to go around
    shooting guns in your own house?  You may hit your family.

3.  I live in a neighborhood where it's not uncommon to hear gunfire a
    a couple nights a week.  I'm still certain that the danger to me
    would be greater if I was armed with a gun, and I've been trained
    to use them.   If two or three guys jump you and you have a gun,
    likely you might get one of them before the others take your gun
    and shoot you.  That's something most people don't consider when
    getting a gun;  Once you have one, it becomes your responsibility 
    to defend not only yourself but also the weapon.  And to do that
    someone is going to get hurt.


Just some thoughts,

-H-


-- 
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                                             howard@netcom.com   
   If an airplane's software was QA'ed at Microsoft, would you fly in it?
...........................................................................

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 09:53:52 1993
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From: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 09:53:40 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: hardcore defined (an attempt)
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

John S. Lee gives us a definition of hardcore:
>When I say hardcore
>I mean 140+ BPM (150 is more like it).

This is a good starting definition.  Speed is only one component of the 
definition of hardcore, and just because something is 150+ it doesn't 
automatically make it hardcore.

Hardcore is characterized by a distorted and reverberating 909 kick drum
running at 140 BPM or faster in 4/4 time.  A sort of scrapey hi-hat rides 
on top of the kick line.  Since just about every track copies this, this 
formulation is the basis for the hardcore sound (and the resulting 
observations that all hardcore sounds the same -- if it didnt' sound like
this then it wouldn't be called hardcore :-) ).  Other elements of the 
hardcore sound include use of minor keys, reverberation, and sudden short 
breaks where a vocal sample is dropped in.  This produces an over all "dark" 
effect, much like one finds in "industrial-dance" music, like Front 242.  

Not much of this music is being made these days, by the way.  And it seems
that the people who are making it (Lenny Dee in New York, the PCD collective
in Germany) are getting SO hard with the tracks that you can't really even
call it music anymore (not that it isn't fun to dance to occaisonally, 
though, but I do prefer some music mixed in with my music, so I pass on these).

Many other tracks come out regularly that run faster than 150 bpm but would
never be considered hardcore.  For anyone who heard me in SF, I played a
track a few times that had a sort of muted drum line and was punctuated by
the loon sample from 808 State's "Pacific" and a voice going "increase the
voltage."  This track is 158 bpm, and is a good example of what I mean
by fast stuff that isn't hardcore.  We don't really know *what* to call it,
as labels are having less and less meanings these days as the music drifts
from the definitions that gelled in the summer of 1992.  Similarly, while I 
was in Los Angeles I bought two EPs, one very trancy and one rather acidy,
and the bpms on these ranged from 160 to 171.  Neither of them are 
recognizable as hardcore, though.

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 10:07:16 1993
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From: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
Message-Id: <9309221706.AA25716@orion.sybgate.sybase.com>
To: brycer@netcom.com
Subject: Re: perhaps a less religious viewpoint on high BPM...
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Content-Length: 188
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> If I can find "Plastic Dreams" in January in NY, they [the big SF DJs]
> sure can.
"Plastic Dreams" was pretty big in SF when it was first released.  It was
dead and buried by January.


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 10:26:08 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 13:26:01 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309221726.AA13028@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: I worship John Lee
In-Reply-To: <9309221542.AA06868@netcom.netcom.com>
References: <9309221542.AA06868@netcom.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


You know, I thought I had gotten away from that "I'm better than you I
know it all I'm cool I dance better than you I'm in I've seen it all
You're all wrong I'm right why don't you worship me while you're at it"
attitude when I graduated from high school. I _really_ thought I had
escaped it when I found the SF house movement, with its profound
acceptance and positive outlook.

Okay, John, you're the coolest person in SF. You dance better than
Brian or anyone else on sfraves. You know more about music than anyone
else here, even the ones with 2000 CDs and even the DJs. You know
who's cool and who's not, and you're able to walk into a place and
immediately sort them out. You use only the coolest drugs, because you
know that anyone that doesn't it completely stupid.  You're the Miss
Manners of raves, and should someone do something that's UnCool,
you'll know to avoid them. And you're right, of course, about people
being magically imbued with clue when they reach their 21st birthday.
And of course you know all the promoters, which takes your coolness
beyond the realm of the mortal.  And last but not least, your efforts
to teach the sfravers that everything they know and do is wrong, and
set them on your One True Path are greatly appreciated.  Why, look at
all you've accomplished!

Are you from New York? Or perhaps LA?

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 10:26:23 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 10:24:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Grant <tgrant@netcom.com>
Subject: synergy presents...
To: Sam Clam's Disco <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9309221010.A19582-9100000@netcom3>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hi gang...

Just wanted to let you know that we have another TV show on tonight at
6:00 p.m. on Viacom.  They keep changing the channels, but I believe it's
up in the low 50's.  Trippy graphics and a nice trancy mix by John Howard.
Feel free to record... I hope you enjoy.

Cheers,

Tony

/--------------------------------------------------------------\
|  Tony Grant          tgrant@netcom.com       s y n e r g y   |
\--------------------------------------------------------------/



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 10:50:16 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 13:50:07 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309221750.AA13786@pilot.njin.net>
To: doom@banneker.stanford.edu
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: guns and *my* mailbox...
In-Reply-To: <9309220542.AA09926@banneker.Stanford.EDU>
References: <9309220542.AA09926@banneker.Stanford.EDU>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

doom@banneker.stanford.edu writes:
 > Allow me to remind you folks about a few interesting unix
 > newsgroups: 
 > 
 >  talk.politics.guns
 >  ba.politics
 >  rec.guns
 > 
 > Not to mention an interesting bay area/california firearms
 > mailing list you could subscribe to (the ba list includes 
 > the ca traffic):
 > 
 >  ba-firearms-request@shell.portal.com  
 >  ca-firearms-request@shell.portal.com  
 > 
 > And I guess there's a texas-area firearms mailing list that
 > you folks from canada and the UK might be interested in
 > checking out. 
 > 
 > By the way, sorry if you've heard me say this before: but
 > existing in a common community doesn't give you the right
 > flood people's mailboxes with your opinions on any random
 > topic.  Try and have some respect for your neighbors, and 
 > show some restraint, huh?  

The thread will eventually die out. Or use procmail or other mail
distribution agent to filter your mail. Not everyone has Usenet
access. The topic, at least initially, was relevant to the charter.
Don't worry be happy.

Sean


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 11:28:34 1993
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To: Roy Badami <uunet!harlequin.co.uk!roy@uunet.UU.NET>
Cc: gwh@lurnix.COM, uunet!dhchung%us.oracle.com@uunet.uu.net,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, gwh@lurnix.COM
Subject: Re: gang violence 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:54:36 BST."
             <10197.9309221154@wundt.harlequin.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 11:10:07 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Roy:
>  gwh> It's not such a pretty friendly world out there.  That's sad,
>  gwh> but that's reality 8-(.
>
>But that's a cop out answer.  DO you want to change things?

No, it's not a cop-out.  It's reality.

Of course I want it to change for the better.  In order: I think
that the war on drugs, which is making drug-dealing profitable
enough to kill over, should be stopped immediately (and the
stuff should be legalized, probably); I think that the kids
growing up in Oakland, in New York, in Detroit, the ones who
see no future except being murdered in street violence, have
to be saved and given something good to live for.

I honestly think that "gun control" in any form will be unable
to reduce the level of violence in America any significant
amount.  I also very deeply feel that the two above changes,
about evenly, will cut out nearly all of what's driving american
violence.  Guns aren't it.  The kids who grow up and end up
believing that killing is natural are the problem.  We've lost
more than a generation to that attitude... and they're going
to haunt us for the next 50 years, whether we reform now or not.

-george william herbert



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To: Roy Badami <uunet!harlequin.co.uk!roy@uunet.UU.NET>
Cc: gwh@lurnix.COM, uunet!roy%harlequin.co.uk@uunet.uu.net, csc@pilot.njin.net,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, uunet!gwh@uunet.UU.NET, gwh@lurnix.COM
Subject: Re: Gun control 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:51:57 BST."
             <10151.9309221151@wundt.harlequin.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 11:02:55 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


>Maybe I'm walking down a dark street,
>and I bump into someone.  He panics, and shoots me....

I have bumped into and been bumped into by a lot of people.
None of us are dead, so far.

Next bright idea? 8-)

-george



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 12:20:14 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993   12:16 -0800 (PST)
From: JACOB%SLACVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU
To: DWATANAB@uci.edu, sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: 1000 BPM , variety
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

In-Reply-To: DWATANAB@uci.edu -- 09/21/93 10:19

i agree, dana. what happened to those parties with several rooms, like
the malachy benefit  in april ? each of the rooms would have different
styles and one could go from ambient, mello stuff to harder tekno.
mr floppy's used to do that stuff regularly, but lately it seems the
raves have one big room with 1 room, 1 style. i liked the variety!
bring back the noise.
take care/shalom/rave out'
ovid

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 12:23:40 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:23:34 PDT
From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309221923.AA20770@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, csc@pilot.njin.net
Subject: Re: I worship John Lee
Cc: jsl@netcom.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sean spouts: 
> You know, I thought I had gotten away from that "I'm better than you I
> know it all I'm cool I dance better than you I'm in I've seen it all
> You're all wrong I'm right why don't you worship me while you're at it"
> attitude when I graduated from high school. I _really_ thought I had
> escaped it when I found the SF house movement, with its profound
> acceptance and positive outlook.

It's a matter of degree Sean.  We can't spend every moment of our lives
at YSH.  And the things we feel at those special House Scene moments
don't always gel with the rest of our day-to-day experiences.  For example,
This latest post of yours doesn't show much profound acceptance and
positive outlook toward the way John S. Lee expresses himself.
 
> Okay, John, you're the coolest person in SF. You dance better than
> Brian or anyone else on sfraves. You know more about music than anyone
> else here, even the ones with 2000 CDs and even the DJs. You know
> who's cool and who's not, and you're able to walk into a place and
> immediately sort them out. [rest of tirade deleted]

I think we have to cut each other a bit more slack when interpreting
attitudes from Internet postings.  Sure, John may come across a bit caustic
at times, just like many of *my* postings are exercises in pretentiousness.
All that really matters is that some useful information gets shared that
is somewhat pertinant to the general focus of this mailing list.  I'll be
the first to admit that according to most of society's criteria, most
ravers, myself included, are pretty lame dancers.  It doesn't really
matter, but there's nothing wrong with making such an observation, even
if it's only an opinion.  All I ask from John is that he not point at me 
and laugh out loud when he sees me dancing.  In fact, my guess is that 
when the music's pumpin', the energy's flowin', and John and I are dancing 
next to each other, the last thing on his mind is my style of dance.  
Unless I bump into him, of course :-)

> Are you from New York? Or perhaps LA?

I'm from New York.  What does *that* have to do with anything - YOU STUPID
FUCKING ASSHOLE!!  :-)  :-)  :-)    

- leg of eel

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 12:30:52 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:31:10 -0700
From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309221931.AA25467@koko.csustan.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Gang viol., gun cont., etc.etc....
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Well it seems we  are all looking   for soluutions to solves these  major 
problems and each individual prresents their  ideas, beleifs, opinions,.......eetc. I  think it is an excellent way to make  peole  aware   of what they may  be

shhoveling if they do not know  whats going  on in our society. 

I just want  to say that to soove  all problems that exist oor may come into 
existance sooner or later, we  should start at the roots of mankind.

The children growing up in our soociety. I think everyboody  puts the rresponsibility of teaching what is good, bad, safe, unsafe, hazardous etc. to children upon
the paarents. That is good and works well only and only if the parent is a 
respponsible (I am sorry aabout the fucking double letters this keyboard   is 
really fuucked up but bear with me) and caring person aand not a menace to our
society.

Why not break  the fucked up minimum standard method of teaching at elementary
and even pre-school    or kindergarden levels. 


I think there is more to life  than $1+$1=$2. What about how not to be a bully 
and get  more haarsh punishment for that than talking in class or chewing sum.

If kids picck uup violence in early age what keeps us from teaching them that 
violence is bad at   the same time rather than wait till they are  older and more
violent. 

I think you have gotten   the idea by now. 

P.S. the human brain is a greatest computer system ever........it  is waiting to
be programed what you put in is  what  you get out. 

So lets start  to program children as soon as they are able to learn and lets 
break the fucked up standards we grew up during our school years.

Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 12:39:18 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:39:15 PDT
From: rslau@ucs.usc.edu (Robert Lau)
Message-Id: <9309221939.AA20425@tarazed.usc.edu>
To: jsl@netcom.com
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309220240.AA13930@netcom.netcom.com> "jsl@netcom.com"
Subject: Re: 190 Huh again
Reply-To: rslau@usc.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

   Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 19:40:46 -0700
   From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)

   The 140+ BPM has, IMO, run it's course here.  The people who have attended
   these events have been mostly amped up on speed...I've seen 'em.  There is
   little you can do with your body at those speeds otehr than the arrythmic
   "pogo" dance.  And speed is great for that type of twitchyness.

I don't think anybody can claim that an entire city no longer likes a
certain style of music, or anything thing else for that matter.  All you
can legitimately say is that the crowd *you* associate with no longer likes
hardcore.  Living isn't about blindly following trends.  If you like a
particular style of music, does the fact that nobody does make it any less
appealing to you?  It shouldn't.

I happen to love 180+ bpm, and I can do more than 'pogo'.  I've never
dropped, done lines, popped, shot up, etc but I can still feel the raw
energy in hardcore.  But, I also happen to like trance, country, house,
wailing divas, metal and practically every other form of music under the
sun.  You can't condemn or in any way slander a DJ for not playing only
what *you* as an individual want to hear.  DJ's want to make you happy but
there are hundreds of other people in the room who are not clones of you.
Even your closest friends have slightly different musical tastes than you.

Diversity not conformity.
All i can say is, open your ears and your mind and enjoy...

-robert

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 13:08:10 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 13:10:20 -0800
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
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> Are you from New York? Or perhaps LA?

I'm from New York.  What does *that* have to do with anything - YOU STUPID
FUCKING ASSHOLE!!  :-)  :-)  :-)    


YYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This made my day. It really did. And I even got up in a pretty evil mood
this morning.
Thank you.

jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 13:09:09 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Cabaret Law in Guardian
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 13:10:28 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


This week's SF Bay Guardian has a story on the cabaret law fight on
page 12 ('Footloose' law gets workout from S.F.Cops).  I'm not
going to type it in, but it contains some information which has not
been seen in previous postings, so it's worth picking up (read the
story on the Raker Act and public power in SF while you're at it :) ).

Supervisor Hallinan's quote: "People 18 to 21 can be on the
streets legally after 2 a.m.  Why shouldn't they be able to stay
inside licensed cabarets without alcohol?"

Quote by Bill Moratta of Neighbors United: "The Board of Supervisors
should not be encouraging 18-, 19- and 20-year-olds to hang out in
discos.  It is not OK to hang out all night."

******************************************************************************
The next hearing on the issue is at the Public Safety Committee's
September 28th meeting at 10 a.m. in City Hall.
******************************************************************************

If you can't make it, call the other supervisors on the committee
(Susan Leal and Kevin Shelley, I believe) to register your opinion.
Susie has their phone numbers, I think - can you post them again,
Susie?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 o derek chung  o  oracle graphics  o  dhchung@us.oracle.com  o 415.506.6195 o
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 13:24:40 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: in response to below
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 13:24:32 -0700
From: vivianm@src.dec.com
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

------

C'mon, are we now resorting to petty name calling?  This is really 
ridculous and childish.

>From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
>Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 13:10:20 -0800
>To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
>Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU
>Message-ID: <9309222008.AA13870@ralph.sybgate.sybase.com>


>> Are you from New York? Or perhaps LA?

>I'm from New York.  What does *that* have to do with anything - YOU STUPID
>FUCKING ASSHOLE!!  :-)  :-)  :-)    


>YYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>This made my day. It really did. And I even got up in a pretty evil mood
>this morning.
>Thank you.

>jamie

>jamiel@sybase.com
">Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 13:58:16 1993
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To: vivianm@src.dec.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
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Content-Length: 841
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At  1:24 PM 9/22/93 -0700, vivianm@src.dec.com wrote:
>------
>
>C'mon, are we now resorting to petty name calling?  This is really 
>ridculous and childish.
>

I'm sorry, I am simply really confused. How did I call someone a name? I
saw a cute joke about New York (a favorite ex haunt of mine, when I lived a
little closer to it) and people from there, and responded by showing
appreciation. Please show me how this was misinterpreted.

>
>>> Are you from New York? Or perhaps LA?
>
>>I'm from New York.  What does *that* have to do with anything - YOU STUPID
>>FUCKING ASSHOLE!!  :-)  :-)  :-)    
>
>
>>YYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>This made my day. It really did. And I even got up in a pretty evil mood
>>this morning.
>>Thank you.
>
>>jamie


jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 14:01:37 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 14:01:18 -0700
In-Reply-To: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
       "Cabaret Law in Guardian" (Sep 22,  1:10pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Subject: Re: Cabaret Law in Guardian
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Sep 22,  1:10pm, you proclaimed:
} Quote by Bill Moratta of Neighbors United: "The Board of Supervisors
} should not be encouraging 18-, 19- and 20-year-olds to hang out in
} discos.  It is not OK to hang out all night."

But 17-year-olds are okay?  Cool!  :)

They should realize that these kids are going to be out ANYWAYS, and 
wouldn't they rather have them in clubs adding to the tax base and
away from trouble than tagging or being vulnerable to crime?

} *****************************************************************************
} The next hearing on the issue is at the Public Safety Committee's
} September 28th meeting at 10 a.m. in City Hall.
} *****************************************************************************

AAAA!  I have a midterm from 11 to 12:30.  Maybe I'll try to take it early 
morning.  Waaaaa!

Derek, could you put this in the calendar?  Along with a 4-5 line description?

	Brian
y

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 14:20:16 1993
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From: geoffw@internex.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309222110.AA04493@internex.net>
To: dhchung@us.oracle.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu
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> 
> They should realize that these kids are going to be out ANYWAYS, and 
> wouldn't they rather have them in clubs adding to the tax base and
> away from trouble than tagging or being vulnerable to crime?
> 
> } *****************************************************************************
> } The next hearing on the issue is at the Public Safety Committee's
> } September 28th meeting at 10 a.m. in City Hall.
> } ****************************************************************************

Maybe we should shave an out door protest rave starting at 2:30
Iutside (since it is legal) then all ages can come.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 14:42:31 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309222142.AA22716@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: in response to below
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> From SFRaves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 22 14:15:15 1993
> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 13:50:55 -0800
> To: vivianm@src.dec.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
> I'm sorry, I am simply really confused. How did I call someone a name? I
> saw a cute joke about New York (a favorite ex haunt of mine, when I lived a
> little closer to it) and people from there, and responded by showing
> appreciation. Please show me how this was misinterpreted.

Your statement was misinterpreted as a misinterpretation of my joke as a
serious statement.  Just another example of why we should resist responding
in anger to each other over a bunch of words.  So c'mon everybody, we're 
ravers right?  Let's put our guns down and embrace each other in one big 
virtual hug... I hope to see everyone at HOME this Saturday.

- leg of eel  

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 14:50:12 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
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Subject: Re: Gun control
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


 All I'm trying to argue is that the
*problem* is gun ownership.  I don't know how to solve that problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
No roy!  Criminals are the problem and the ones that use guns to commit 
crime should be put away for ever!  If you magicly eliminated criminals
there would be no crime but there would still be use for guns, i.e., 
hunting, target shooting, and historic memorabilia.  Criminals are THE
problem.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Put it another way.  If you introduced gun control, and then magically
confiscated all the guns in circulation, do you think that would
work...?  Yep, people would still be able to get hold of guns smuggled
into the country on the black market, but the numbers would be
small....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No again.  The nubers would not be small.  It was just announced that
despite all efforts, there is as much or more cocaine comming into our
country as ever before.  Why would illegal guns be different?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now in reality, achieving low gun ownership is hard, because of the
number of guns in circulation.  I accept that in a society where all
the criminals have guns, gun control laws may actually make things
worse.  But do you at least accept that gun ownership is a *problem*,
and that the *goal* should be to work towards a society where guns are
unusual, both amongst honest citizens, and amongst criminals.

Or is the idea of a non-gun-owning society just not the american way...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes and No.  In ideal society there would be no existence of guns but 
by the selfish nature of criminals they will use what is available to
them to further their plans.  Since guns can be imported and made,
there is no chance of a gunless society.  Unfortuneatly, as long as
there are criminals there will be guns.  As someone else pointed out,
it's time to go deeper and try to eliminate the need for people to 
commit crime.  That means closing the gap between haves and havenots,
and the haves will never go for it.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 14:51:15 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 14:17:18 PDT
From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309222117.AA02337@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: gary@ayrmis.enet.dec.com, uunet!netcom.com!howard@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Assorted ramblings from Scotland
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Howard says:
> By far the most people killed by handguns in america are killed by
    their own or an associate's handgun.  The FBI published statistics
    on this.

I would be willing to bet that this is an ACCIDENTAL gun death statistic.
Sit for a minute and think about how often you hear about this kind of
unfortunate incicent and then compare it to how often you see/hear/read
about people being robbed and shot by strangers with a strange gun.  It
just doesn't add up.

> In your own home you are at a tremendous advantage against an
    intruder.  They have (likely) never been there before.
    Additionally, other weapons can be as or more effective in these
    circumstances.  And after all, do you really want to go around
    shooting guns in your own house?  You may hit your family.

That advantage would be instently equalized if they had a gun and you
didn't.  I have a family and am about to purchase a firearm for home
protection upon my gun-hating girlfriends request.  The news finaly
got to her.  Of course we will both take a gun-safety course and would
obviosly not shoot at an intruder while they were in the vicinity of
the kids.  The point is with a gun WE would be in control or at least
not as out of control as if the intruder had a gun and we didn't.  That
person is more likely to shoot us or the kids than we would be.

>I live in a neighborhood where it's not uncommon to hear gunfire a
    a couple nights a week.  I'm still certain that the danger to me
    would be greater if I was armed with a gun, and I've been trained
    to use them.   If two or three guys jump you and you have a gun,
    likely you might get one of them before the others take your gun
    and shoot you.  That's something most people don't consider when
    getting a gun;  Once you have one, it becomes your responsibility
    to defend not only yourself but also the weapon.  And to do that
    someone is going to get hurt.

You'd have to be STUPID to attack someone with a gun, especialy if they
just shot your accomplice and most criminals aren't stupid.  Anywone
reading this will verify, when someone has a gun pointed at you, you
do just about anything they say (exception:  You are a woman and someone
is trying to kidnap you from a public place.  If you run you might get
away or you might get shot (unlikely, according to statistics).  If you
cooperate you will probably be shot anyway after many horrible things
are done to you or you won't be shot after many horrible things are done
to you.)

Have a nice day.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 15:04:15 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: please unsubscribe me
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 15:04:11 -0700
From: vivianm@src.dec.com
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


If possible I would still like to recieve the rave guide.





vivianm

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 15:23:07 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309222221.AA02424@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Assorted ramblings from Scotland
To: winston@lurnix.lurnix.com (Mark Guthrie)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 15:21:52 PDT
Cc: gary@ayrmis.enet.dec.com, uunet!netcom.com!howard@uunet.UU.NET,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309222117.AA02337@cassy.lurnix.com>; from "Mark Guthrie" at Sep 22, 93 2:17 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Mark Guthrie sez:
> 
> Howard says:
> > By far the most people killed by handguns in america are killed by
>     their own or an associate's handgun.  The FBI published statistics
>     on this.
> 
> I would be willing to bet that this is an ACCIDENTAL gun death statistic.

No, I believe it's total gun related deaths.  Domestic violence is a major
contributor, and that's not accidental.  

> 
> You'd have to be STUPID to attack someone with a gun, especialy if they
> just shot your accomplice and most criminals aren't stupid.  Anywone

So you plan on walking around with a gun in your hand?  Otherwise, how will
anyone know you have one until you try to use it?

Say 4 guys decide they'd like your wallet.  The smartest thing to do
would be to give it to them, and maybe take a couple punches.
Unfortunately, if a gun comes out (either you pull it out or you drop
it whilst being punched) the whole situation changes.  If you're
lucky, they'll simply steal your gun.  If not, someone's going to get
hurt pretty bad.

It's easier than you think to disarm someone.  Especially if you
outnumber them.  That's what I meant by 'you might get one of them
before they take your gun and shoot you'.  The point is, the gun is
only going to come into play AFTER you are attacked and people are
close enough to touch (i.e. disarm) you.  Unless, of course, you plan
to go on the offensive :-)

None of that, of course, applies to home defense.  


-H-




-- 
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                                             howard@netcom.com   
   If an airplane's software was QA'ed at Microsoft, would you fly in it?
...........................................................................

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 15:23:35 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 15:23:24 -0700
From: Laura La Gassa <laura@soda.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <9309222223.AA26172@soda.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: flashing lights urban legend
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Hi, does anyone happen to have copies of ALL the traffic regarding the
flashing lights / gang initiation Urban Legend that "supposedly" was
happening in San Jose?  I especially want a copy of the disclaimer
statements that were made by the San Jose police.

This myth just popped up on the bulletin board at work in NEW JERSEY today, 
and I want proof to back up my debunking (so a copy of the disclaimer
would be great).

Brian, do we archive sfraves at all anyway?

Thanks, 

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 15:39:29 1993
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From: creon@netcom.com (Creon Levit)
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To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Doc Martin's phone # ?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Does anyone have it?  Some friends would like to hire him.

(please respond via mail - thanks)

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 15:43:17 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 11:51 PDT
From: YOUR FRIEND MIKE <MROMO@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>
Subject: 0 BPMs, Uzis, Cloud nine...etc
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <C7453CEF60015176@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


This is a neat place,  I have never seen anyone discuss BPMs for this
amount of time.  Like all of us, I will dance until I am tired, or I
will stop dancing when I realise the music is going nowhere, fsat or 
slow (fsat is an alternative way to spell "fast" by the way)...so 
continue on, but I am not sure how much more it can last...

And I must agree with Sean, this is the Last place to start talking about
who is a better dancer.  I mean, jeez, JSLee, you were going off!  I felt
like I was getting ripped on, and I am not even a bad dancer!  Anyone
feel the same?  I felt like I was going to be witness to a third break
dancing movie (I all you out!  You call me out?  AFTER SCHOOL....)

Gun control is fun control.  No, I am just feeling silly.  I have my own
views on the matter, and they are mine.  I don't like guns so I don't own
one.  Nuff on that...

Oh Cloud Nine is weak.

Unless you go out dancing, but it is not something to chill on, apparently.

(grumble)

So, is everyone having a nice Wednesday?  I am taking a break from things
for a bit, don't want to burn into a wall, but I think that the thing that
Jon D and Tamara and Laura are spinning at will be fun, along with the
park thing.  

Okay, be happy, people. Relax, get some water, go outside, breathe some
air, You Only Live Once...

have a good week
mike

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 16:36:12 1993
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To: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim)
Cc: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: perhaps a less religious viewpoint on high BPM... 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Sep 93 10:06:49 PDT."
             <9309221706.AA25716@orion.sybgate.sybase.com> 
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 16:36:33 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> "Plastic Dreams" was pretty big in SF when it was first released.  It was
> dead and buried by January.

if it was dead and buried, how come i keep hearing it? I recently even
heard it on live 105 (no, i wasn't actually listening to THAT station,
sheesh! :-)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 17:09:16 1993
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From: giamma@oas.olivetti.com (Gianmaria Clerici)
Message-Id: <9309222354.AA05690@milano.atc.olivetti.com>
Subject: #$%* XLSF party @&#$
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRavers)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 16:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: sfraves-planners@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaver Planners)
Organization: Olivetti Advanced Technology Center - SW Technologies
Phone: (408) 366-3545
Fax:   (408) 366-3606
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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!@#$%^&*()*&^%%$!#^@#&#!@)$&^!&$&*!@&$&&*#$*#^($*(#&$*&*(!&(*&@(*&$(#!^$^!@^$^&

                        *    *  *      ***** ******
                         *  *   *      *     *
                          **    *      ***** *****
                         *  *   *          * *
                        *    *  *****  ***** *

                      Sunday the 26th of September
		  	 12:00PM -- 4:00 PM FREE
		867 Valencia St. (between 19th and 20th St.)

This is not a rave but a party for XLSF: all SFRAVERS and friends are invited.
XLSF is the newly open X-LARGE store (all kind of clothing gear) run by our 
	SFRiend James Joaquin.
There will be music mixed by me on my DENON 2000 (twin CD player) and everybody
	is welcome to bring CD's and mix.

	c u there				Giamma

!@#$%^&*()*&^%%$!#^@#&#!@)$&^!&$&*!@&$&&*#$*#^($*(#&$*&*(!&(*&@(*&$(#!^$^!@^$^&

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 17:11:12 1993
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To: uunet!netcom.com!howard@uunet.UU.NET (Howard Berkey)
Cc: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie), gary@ayrmis.enet.dec.com,
        howard@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, gwh@lurnix.COM
Subject: Re: Assorted ramblings from Scotland 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Sep 93 15:21:52 PDT."
             <9309222221.AA02424@netcom3.netcom.com> 
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 16:56:19 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


>No, I believe it's total gun related deaths.  Domestic violence is a major
>contributor, and that's not accidental.  

No, gun homicides by strangers are about eight times as prevalent as
all domestic homicides.

>The point is, the gun is
>only going to come into play AFTER you are attacked and people are
>close enough to touch (i.e. disarm) you.  Unless, of course, you plan
>to go on the offensive :-)

If you're sufficiently situationally aware, you can tell something
is going to go down before anyone's that close, and this is more
important than being armed.  Once you know something is starting to
happen, or may start to happen, you have an edge... few attackers
want to go after an alerted victim.  Let them know you know what's
going on, establish eye contact, they usually decide to drop the
issue.

-george


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 17:11:20 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309222350.AA03438@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Sheep on Drugs
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sheep on Drugs are playing Monday.  My friend Lisa (the one involved with
the video thing) also runs a zine and she's interviewing them monday.  She
asked me for suggestions on questions to ask them.  Anyone?

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 17:40:27 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 17:40:42 -0700
Message-Id: <9309230040.AA25968@netcom.netcom.com>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: I worship John Lee or how I beat a dead horse
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The young altruistic laddie-buck Sean Casey gave mounds of worship:
>
>Okay, John, you're the coolest person in SF. 

Yes, I know.

>You dance better than
>Brian or anyone else on sfraves.

Yes, I know.

>You know more about music than anyone
>else here, even the ones with 2000 CDs and even the DJs.

No I would not say that.  There are plenty of people on this list that can
give me a run for my money.  Hell, I'm easy.  I don't know as much as many
on the list do.  But thanks for the worship.  Let's keep on draggin this
horse shall we?

>You know
>who's cool and who's not, and you're able to walk into a place and
>immediately sort them out.

Yes, I know.

>You use only the coolest drugs, because you
>know that anyone that doesn't it completely stupid.

Yes, I know.

>You're the Miss
>Manners of raves,

Uh, due to my gender laddie-buck you had better change that to Mr. Manners!



>and should someone do something that's UnCool,
>you'll know to avoid them. And you're right, of course, about people
>being magically imbued with clue when they reach their 21st birthday.

Yes, I know.

>And of course you know all the promoters, which takes your coolness
>beyond the realm of the mortal.

Yes, I know.

>And last but not least, your efforts
>to teach the sfravers that everything they know and do is wrong, and
>set them on your One True Path are greatly appreciated.  Why, look at
>all you've accomplished!

Not very much.  I still have so much more to do Sean.  That is why I want
to employ you, and all the other misguided souls who need my divine
guidance to, in a new effort.  The Church of His Highest Personage John S.
Lee.  Yes!  With only a small tithe ($20 each time you enter my immortal
realm), you will be treated to:

- My thoughts on raves.
- My thoughts on dancing.
- My thoughts on BPM's and what IS the correct speed.
- My thoughts on drug use.
- My thoughts on life.
- My thoughts on liberty.
- My thoughts on the pursuite of happiness.

Then with all of the money that I've collected, I will publish my new book
called "How I Made Them See My Light", look for it from Dead Horse
publications.  Thanks Sean for your support!

>
>Are you from New York? Or perhaps LA?
>
>Sean

Nope.


Please remember to stop by the Church anytime, bring your $20, and have a
seat.  I've still got a lot to do, and finding apostles is hard work. 
After looking at your posts, and your general manner, I would love to have
you as part of my flock.  God knows, you need it.


From his high-holy-coolness,
John S. Lee

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 17:40:34 1993
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Message-Id: <9309230040.AA25993@netcom.netcom.com>
To: rslau@usc.edu
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: another dead horse...190 who?
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>   Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 19:40:46 -0700
>   From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
>
>   The 140+ BPM has, IMO, run it's course here.  The people who have attended
>   these events have been mostly amped up on speed...I've seen 'em.  There is
>   little you can do with your body at those speeds otehr than the arrythmic
>   "pogo" dance.  And speed is great for that type of twitchyness.
>
>I don't think anybody can claim that an entire city no longer likes a
>certain style of music, or anything thing else for that matter.  All you
>can legitimately say is that the crowd *you* associate with no longer likes
>hardcore.

Could anything else have been implied by my post.  All I said was that the
MAJORITY of DJ here don't play dat stuff.  But let's continue with your
overanalysis...


>Living isn't about blindly following trends.

Life 101.  I read it yesterday ;)

>I happen to love 180+ bpm, and I can do more than 'pogo'.  I've never
>dropped, done lines, popped, shot up, etc but I can still feel the raw
>energy in hardcore.  But, I also happen to like trance, country, house,
>wailing divas, metal and practically every other form of music under the
>sun.  You can't condemn or in any way slander a DJ for not playing only
>what *you* as an individual want to hear.  DJ's want to make you happy but
>there are hundreds of other people in the room who are not clones of you.
>Even your closest friends have slightly different musical tastes than you.

This passive-agressive posting really stinks.  Ok my man.  Look, I am not
going to get into any explanations of my opinions.  Methinks that you and
other people on the list have a John S. Lee panic button going.  I made
some observations about what I liked and disliked.  You know, expressing an
opinion about a style of music I don't like.  The rest was just more of my
opinion.  Man, you guys must take everything I say pretty seriously.  

So let me dissect your last passage for all the innaccuracies:
> You can't condemn or in any way slander a DJ for not playing only
>what *you* as an individual want to hear. 

I didn't.  I said Goa Gill plays hardcore, and he does.  Is that a slam.  I
guess if JSL says it it is.

>DJ's want to make you happy but
>there are hundreds of other people in the room who are not clones of you.

DJ's could give a fuck about John S. Lee, unless of course they are my pals
:).  In any case the DJ is there for him/herself, the people, and MOST
importantly, the MUSIC.  As for clones of JSL, don't want any. Although it
would be nice to see MORE people of color at the events of late.

>Even your closest friends have slightly different musical tastes than you.

I guess this is called "Stating the obvious".  Yes, you're right....congrats.

>
>Diversity not conformity.

Diversity...hell, seems like some of you'ze people have adopted a word I
have used here on the list many many times.  Once again, nice one.

>All i can say is, open your ears and your mind and enjoy...

When I open my ears all I hear are panic sirens going off...quite nice actually.

>
>-robert


Listen bro,
All that you posted previous, I really have no problem with.  I do have a
problem with you or others judging my opinion.  Well, whatever.  It is
obvious that if you have a point of view that is slightly different, you
are bound to come under some criticism.  I accept that.  I do wish though
that you and others would be a bit more accurate in your observations,
instead of hitting that panic button. Too Pavlovian for my tastes.

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 17:40:58 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 17:40:58 -0700
Message-Id: <9309230040.AA26027@netcom.netcom.com>
To: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: I worship John Lee
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>I'll be
>the first to admit that according to most of society's criteria, most
>ravers, myself included, are pretty lame dancers.  It doesn't really
>matter, but there's nothing wrong with making such an observation, even
>if it's only an opinion.  All I ask from John is that he not point at me 
>and laugh out loud when he sees me dancing.  In fact, my guess is that 
>when the music's pumpin', the energy's flowin', and John and I are dancing 
>next to each other, the last thing on his mind is my style of dance.  
>Unless I bump into him, of course :-)

Dude, if you ever bump into me, I'll pistol whip ya! ;)

Really tho Lee.  The last thing that I care about is how someone dances,
unless they are absolutely careless in bumping into others (esp not saying
excuse me!).  I go to a party to dance and have a good time.  I do take a
good look around, and try to get a feel for the place that I'm at, but for
the most part I am there to enjoy myslef, and dance along with everyone
else.  I don't point fingies at people and say, "look at that guy".  I'm
usually soooo baked I could care less.  But you gotta admit, there are some
winners!  (Like waaay back there was some guy who use to walk around with
this HUGE stick, and would dance with it.  Pretty cool, but when you see it
in the morning, and that damn stick is still bobbing up and down ON THE
BEAT, and the dude is still going off like it's  2:00 a.m. all you can say
is WINNER).  Hell, there are a lot of funny people at parties, the funniest
ones of late are the ones who take their shit sooooo seriously.  GK had a
few of 'em. 

So I was upstairs, and I saw these two really nice looking girls and this,
uh, "gigger".  You've all HAD to have seen him once or twice.  He usually
has a buddy, and they dress alike (Black/White short sleeve shirt, nice cut
baggie pants, really clean looking, and there to put on the show!).  So
they were all on the beanbags doing dance stretching excercises.  Once they
were all stretched out they got up, started hoofing, and proceeded down the
stairs for the main event.  Now that was funny, and to me, they can dance! 
A bit too serious for my tastes, but then again, aren't we all at times.

>
>> Are you from New York? Or perhaps LA?
>
>I'm from New York.  What does *that* have to do with anything - YOU STUPID
>FUCKING ASSHOLE!!  :-)  :-)  :-)    
>
>- leg of eel


Actually I am from Miami, FL.  And if some of these fools don't stop,
they're gonna get my tourist treatment, for FREE ;)

(Seans post was so antagonistic, that I really did not want to grace him
with an answer).

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 17:41:07 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 17:41:12 -0700
Message-Id: <9309230041.AA26097@netcom.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: GK & BOOGIE Report
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

GK, although not one of Preston's finest parties, went the hell off
nonetheless.  John Howard (who will one day be the shit in this city, NO
DOUBT), played a really good set.  To think that fool was at the Big V one
year ago as a partier, and is now a full-blown respectable DJ is mind
boggling!  He's a really nice guy, and can fuck it up 2 boot.

Rick Preston....what can you say.  He really did the do, I was going crazy
when he hit the decks.  He spun some shit that put my ass into Monday of
next week.  Played some really depp, acidic groviness that was quite
coherent.  A full set with full tunes.  Rick's the man!

Spun...I have never really had anything good to say abpout Spun (so I've
remained silent).  He is not one of my favorite DJ's, but HE SURE IS NOW! 
He Spun some mental shit that was from beyond.  Man, that's all I can say. 
He's mental, his music is mental, he should be locked up!  Nice one!!!!


Ernie...the TRUEST showman of all.  Not only can he spin the shit, but he's
fun to watch.  I really got off on Ernies set (what else is new), and he
really comes out with the trnsacidwarpdrivefuckyourbrain set.  Ernie is
dangerous, when he and Markie team up, it is, in a word LETHAL!


Boogie:  I was so out of it, I stayed for 1.5 hours, got to hear my man
Harry Who do the do (he is the morning man 4 me), and went home.


Peace out,
John


P.S.  Didn't make it to WOMAD.  Didn't want to go.  I've been to some hefty
parties but 100,000+ is where this droogie draws the line.  No more
massives! ;)

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 17:42:48 1993
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From: Ravi Vinodrai Gadhia <rg@CS.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <9309230042.AA06955@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: BTW, how wuz Wicked??
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 17:42:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
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Hmmm,  

A few days have passed and my curiousity has gotten the
best of me.  I heard about LiquidAir, experienced
GrooveKitchen, but still haven't heard about Wicked.

Anyone care to clue me in?  Please??
			    ^^^^^^
GrooveKitchen, btw, was tremendous I thought.  The sound
was the cleanest that I've ever heard at King St.  Spun 
did a fabulous job filling the small wherehouse with 
MASSIVE, MASSIVE sound, and Ernie just went nuts....
vintage Ernie.

I'm still reeling from the joy of last weekend, and 
something tells me that this weekend (and the next)
will prove no different.  Fasten your seat belts....

,mmmH

Ravi



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 18:27:27 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 18:27:43 -0700
Message-Id: <9309230127.AA02218@netcom.netcom.com>
To: YOUR FRIEND MIKE <MROMO@scuacc.scu.edu>
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: 0 BPMs, Uzis, Cloud nine...etc
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>dancing movie (I all you out!  You call me out?  AFTER SCHOOL....)

Brian started the shit by saying all I can do is pogo.  and that SF people
can't keep up.  The retort about "Ill outdance you" was more sarcasm than
anything.  My history of talking about hoofers, then one should know I am
neither for or against it.  If anything I think it's old, but fun to watch.
 I am not a hoofer, but I can keep up with the best of 'em (not of the
hoofers mind you, of regular folks;)  It was all in fun, but some people on
the list love to push that old panic button (soemtimes called the Dead
Horse Button).

In any case....HIYA!

>
>Gun control is fun control.  No, I am just feeling silly.  I have my own
>views on the matter, and they are mine.  I don't like guns so I don't own
>one.  Nuff on that...
>
>Oh Cloud Nine is weak.
>
>Unless you go out dancing, but it is not something to chill on, apparently.
>
>(grumble)
>
>So, is everyone having a nice Wednesday?  I am taking a break from things
>for a bit, don't want to burn into a wall, but I think that the thing that
>Jon D and Tamara and Laura are spinning at will be fun, along with the
>park thing.  
>
>Okay, be happy, people. Relax, get some water, go outside, breathe some
>air, You Only Live Once...
>
>have a good week
>mike

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 18:27:33 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 18:27:49 -0700
Message-Id: <9309230127.AA02224@netcom.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Contest, sorry butts stay home!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I am sick and tired of ALL of you SFRavers talking about BPM's and DANCING.
 Look, for once and for all, back your shit up!

I propose a FINAL word on this by hosting an official SFR Dance Contest Called:
"The Hoofs on The Other Foot" or "Trip Your Feet to Thee Beet".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                PRESENTING
                                 The 1993
                               Hoofer's Ball
                        "Trip Your Feet to Thee Beet"

             brought to you by Dead Horse Productions & Palmolive


The contest rules are as follows:

1.  You must be able to move your feet in rapid succession, to a beat of no
less than 124BPM, no more than 145BPM, on time and TO THE BEAT!

Anyone caught missing a beat will be carried off the dancefloor. Shoes will
be confiscated so that they may go to the winner!

2. You must be able to do various forms of "catching air".  Points will be
given for the "Box-Air-Step", "Super-Betty Strut", and "Acid-Salsa" moves. 
Anything extra wins a bonus.  When performing these steps you MUST get at
leat 2-3 inces of air between your feet and the dancefloor (that means BOTH
feet and the dancefloor).

 Pogoing means INSTANT disqualification.  Feet never leaving the ground,
Instant disqualification.  Shoes will be confiscated so that they may go to
the winner!

3.  Arms must be in "harmony" with the music and the feet.  None of this
rock-and-roll-beat-the-drums-jerky-arms-bullshit.  The body must be in
complete concert, so keep the herky-jerky @ home!  Arms outstretched for
"Acid-Salsa", and arms in walking fashion ala "Super-Betty Strut" are ok. 
Bonus points for more fluid motion. Vogueing is OK, as long as you rep. a
house, and catch air during at least 1 pose.

 Anyone violating this will be disqualified. Shoes will be confiscated so
that they may go to the winner!

4.Stretching must be done, BEFORE you get on the dancefloor.  Any YOGA
moves means instant disqualification, unless you have cuaght air in the
process of making such moves!

5.  Dance teams are allowed, but if done you MUST match in dress, completely.

6.  Hands to the side (like doin the German Lederhosen deal), are OK.  As
long as your feet are moving to the music.

No cardboard will be provided for this event, so bring your own.

Smoking, drug-taking, speed, hallucinogens, are encouraged since this
contest will last for approx 10 hours.  Water provided by Evian.

The winner will be judged by a well known House personality, to be named at
a later date  (hell, at least I know 'em).

The Grand Pize:  Bragging Rights (they don't give no trophies for dancing @
raves), and all of the Losers sweaty shoes!

Runner-Ups:  There are no runner up's at raves.  Go home!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Entry fee is $20.  Door charge is $10.  Trophy fee is $35.  Evian water (by
the bottle) is $6.  Backpack OK as long as you have no water in them.

Let me know if you are interested, since applications are already being
accepted.

I for one have already sent in my $71!  So if you're man or woman enough to
challenge me...forget the threats, I'll see you on the dancefloor!


Only the headstrong,
John S. Lee  

- Cool guy, Dance King, Mr. House Manners '93, and the Untimate Insider.
 



================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 18:34:52 1993
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From: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
Message-Id: <9309230136.AA00790@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: What SFRaves means to me
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 19:36:28 -0600 (MDT)
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What SFRaves means to me...

Recently:

	- Off topic threads
	- Opinionated thoughtless responses
	- Personal attacks
	- Flames
	- Point, counter point
	- Rant, rant, rant
	- Me, me, me
	- Lack of caring
	- Lack of restraint
	- Lack of tolerance (I guess I'm guilty now, too)
	- Lack of human compassion
	- Lack of community 
	- Lack of vibe

	
Is there some bad shit going around, wrong phase of the moon, a karmic
catastrophe?  What?

If this is *really* what SF Raving is all about, please unsubscribe me.



-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 18:45:33 1993
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Message-Id: <9309230145.AA16018@netcom6.netcom.com>
To: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gang viol., gun cont., etc.etc.... 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Sep 93 12:31:10 PDT."
             <9309221931.AA25467@koko.csustan.edu> 
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 18:45:56 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz):
> If kids picck uup violence in early age what keeps us from teaching them that 
> violence is bad at   the same time rather than wait till they are  older and more
> violent. 
> ...
> So lets start  to program children as soon as they are able to learn and lets 
> break the fucked up standards we grew up during our school years.

A while back, John S Lee posted something about gangsta rap music, and I
believe he concluded that violent lyrics should not be censored. I wanted
to respond then, but I got too busy. Now I'll respond to both Hoss and
John...

I think violence in the media should be disallowed and censored, much in
the way that sexuality currently is. And I also agree with the current
movement in the US government to censor violence on TV and in the movies
and in music too.

At least in old school rap you'd just get people talking about their dick
size, their cars, how many women they've slept with, and their status.
Nothing really out of the ordinary -- people have been doing that for some
time, and i have nothing against it (in fact, i prefer a lot of old school
rap to the new stuff).

Now people rap about killing anybody who gets in their way, anybody that
disses them. Anybody that even disagrees w/ them. All in the name of being
"hard" "tough" and "gangsta". I've heard all the arguments pro/con, and I
don't think that's the way kids should be socialized. (the usual response
is "we're not violent/racist/sexist, we're just reflecting the reality that
is around us"...  WRONGO...  you're gloryfying it & gloryfying the
lifestyle thereby creating more violence -- a vicious cycle. 

The problem is the media. People no longer socialize people, the media does
it for us. It is the great brainwasher/parent/teacher/babysitter, but it is
teaching us lies & bullshit. Parents today for the most part are too busy
just trying to keep up with the joneses (or at least paying the bills) to
have any time to spend with their kids. So kids are educated and socialized
by TV and movies. No more sitting around with the family by candlelight and
telling stories to each other, no more imagination.

That, and stupid violent video games. Little kids (esp. boys) have always
been into mock-warriorhood. But they did it with mock war equipment.
Nowadays, kids know how to "kill" (at least virtually) before they know how
to ride a bike. ANd in graphic detail too. Nothing left to the imagination.

SO if you really want to change the world, start by promoting media that
doesn't show that easy solutions arise from acts of violence. Make 
violence unfashionable and uncool.

If people are upset by an erosion of rights caused by my proposed
censorship, then perhaps we should replace all TV violence with nudity and
sexuality on TV.  (Tit for tat, literally... :-). Go to south-or-central
america, or even many european coountries, and the UK, and you'll see full
frontal nudity all over the media (and on many beaches). It hasn't exactly
caused an erosion of moral values, but at the same time you don't get
people gunning down kids in schoolyards either.

This being a protestant country, we can't show natural (or "unnatural",
whatever that is) acts of sexuality, nor the beauty of the human body
without clothes. But we can show the insides of a body being ripped out,
bullets shredding flesh and death and mayhem. What's wrong with this
picture? Is this the way that good protestants act out their sexual
repression?

Given kids exposure to such artificial media socialization and the violent
dominator-society values promoted by those media... well, it's no wonder
we're seeing the kind of bullshit we're seeing.

PS-to-appease-ye-libertarians: I don't like the idea of censorship at all,
because of the fascist possibilities it entails. However, given that
violence is so fashionable, something needs to be done.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 19:15:52 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 19:13:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Arthur Chandler <arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: GG Park Rave still on?
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309230136.AA00790@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9309221910.A22433-8100000@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  Is the GG Park Rave -- October 3, Marx Meadow -- still on? Anyone know
the hours?
                        * * * * * * * * * *

  "To Rave Is To Affirm."




From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 19:51:42 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 19:49:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: Re: synergy presents...
To: Tony Grant <tgrant@netcom.com>
Cc: Sam Clam's Disco <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.05.9309221010.A19582-9100000@netcom3>
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ooooo does anyone have any of these shows taped? and if so willing to let
me copy them? i enjoyed the synergy light show t basics...partyon...susie (:

On Wed, 22 Sep 1993, Tony Grant wrote:

> Hi gang...
> 
> Just wanted to let you know that we have another TV show on tonight at
> 6:00 p.m. on Viacom.  They keep changing the channels, but I believe it's
> up in the low 50's.  Trippy graphics and a nice trancy mix by John Howard.
> Feel free to record... I hope you enjoy.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Tony
> 
> /--------------------------------------------------------------\
> |  Tony Grant          tgrant@netcom.com       s y n e r g y   |
> \--------------------------------------------------------------/
> 
> 




From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 20:12:57 1993
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Cabaret Law in Guardian
To: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Cc: SFRaves <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <9309222010.AA06136@slamdance.us.oracle.com>
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derek asked me to repost these numbers...and i urge you to call them and
tell them they should vote for this amendment

sup leal 5546644
sup shelley 5544005

also i encourage people to talk it up with there friends...

also if anyone wants to help me flyer about it..call me or email me...
415 612 7185

partyon...susie(:



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 20:54:55 1993
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From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: guns/nuts
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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WORDS ARE MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD...(OR GUN) PARTYON...SUSIE (:



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 22:41:41 1993
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From: alves@bethe.ucdavis.edu (David Alves)
Message-Id: <9309230533.AA24745@bethe.ucdavis.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: SanJose driveby myth
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Hi 
I was wondering if I could get a copy of some San Jose police statement or
get a reference debunking the "don't blink your headlights or you will be
attacked" myth.  This came up in my wife's class this evening, apparently
it was faxed to the schools in her district.
Anyway, any info would be helpful.
Thanks,
Dave



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 22 23:14:40 1993
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From: dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com (JUMP IN THE FIRE)
Message-Id: <9309230528.AA03025@curly.agames.com>
Subject: Violence, rights, responsibility
To: netcom!mayer@netcom.com (Niels P. Mayer)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 22:28:00 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309230145.AA16018@netcom6.netcom.com>; from "Niels P. Mayer" at Sep 22, 93 6:45 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


This is my last word on these subjects.  Read it carefully.  I have no
more to say.  I'm out of words.  Stick a fork in me, baby, I'm done.

Neils: I still believe you have the wrong solution to the right problem.

> I think violence in the media should be disallowed and censored, much in
> the way that sexuality currently is. And I also agree with the current
> movement in the US government to censor violence on TV and in the movies
> and in music too.

So what makes you any different or better than Tipper Gore and the PMRC?
The fact that you might actually listen to records before censoring their
content?  Censorship = censorship = censorship, no matter which way you
slice it, and you'll find a lot more people wanting to censor the things
you value than the things you abjure.  Best to step out of that
shouting match altogether and work on a real solution.

> At least in old school rap you'd just get people talking about their dick
> size, their cars, how many women they've slept with, and their status.
> Nothing really out of the ordinary -- people have been doing that for some
> time, and i have nothing against it (in fact, i prefer a lot of old school
> rap to the new stuff).
> 
> Now people rap about killing anybody who gets in their way, anybody that
> disses them. Anybody that even disagrees w/ them. All in the name of being
> "hard" "tough" and "gangsta". I've heard all the arguments pro/con, and I
> don't think that's the way kids should be socialized. (the usual response
> is "we're not violent/racist/sexist, we're just reflecting the reality that
> is around us"...  WRONGO...  you're gloryfying it & gloryfying the
> lifestyle thereby creating more violence -- a vicious cycle. 

You're sounding like your parents.  "Elvis' upper body was OK, but his
*pelvis* -- that's going way too far."

For anything you ever say, you can find _someone_ in the US who will
swear to their death that it should be censored.  Once you step on
that slippery slope of legislating moral judgements, you're riding it
to the bottom, where lies eventual fascism and/or violent revolution.

> The problem is the media. People no longer socialize people, the media does
> it for us. It is the great brainwasher/parent/teacher/babysitter, but it is
> teaching us lies & bullshit. Parents today for the most part are too busy
> just trying to keep up with the joneses (or at least paying the bills) to
> have any time to spend with their kids. So kids are educated and socialized
> by TV and movies. No more sitting around with the family by candlelight and
> telling stories to each other, no more imagination.

So don't let them be socialized by the media!  Repeat after me: "I will
not demand that others fix my problems."

> That, and stupid violent video games. Little kids (esp. boys) have always
> been into mock-warriorhood. But they did it with mock war equipment.
> Nowadays, kids know how to "kill" (at least virtually) before they know how
> to ride a bike. ANd in graphic detail too. Nothing left to the imagination.

And a Nintendo is more real than a toy gun?  Kids are inexperienced, but
they're not stupid.  Give them some credit.

> SO if you really want to change the world, start by promoting media that
> doesn't show that easy solutions arise from acts of violence. Make 
> violence unfashionable and uncool.

May the Prince of Lies, Indulgence, and Rash Actions forever protect
me from people who want to change the world to their own liking.  If
the path you have taken looks right to me, I may follow you.  If you
come at me with a leash, I'll bite your hand off.

> Go to south-or-central
> america, or even many european coountries, and the UK, and you'll see full
> frontal nudity all over the media (and on many beaches). It hasn't exactly
> caused an erosion of moral values, but at the same time you don't get
> people gunning down kids in schoolyards either.

Sure you do.  Usually government death squads, though, and with much more
regularity than the occasional deranged killers we get here.

We, as a society, fear unpredictability more than violence.  If a government
goes around killing people, that's OK, because that's what a government
does, and we understand.  But when some random person decides to freak out,
so do we, because it doesn't fit into our conditioning that everything 
should be predictable even at the price of our liberty.

> This being a protestant country, we can't show natural (or "unnatural",
> whatever that is) acts of sexuality, nor the beauty of the human body
> without clothes. But we can show the insides of a body being ripped out,
> bullets shredding flesh and death and mayhem. What's wrong with this
> picture? Is this the way that good protestants act out their sexual
> repression?

Yes.  The solution is to legalize both.  I'd rather watch sex than violence
any day, and so do most people, but if all you can get is violence, then
you take it.  Of course, I'd rather have sex than watch it, but my point
stands.

> PS-to-appease-ye-libertarians: I don't like the idea of censorship at all,
> because of the fascist possibilities it entails. However, given that
> violence is so fashionable, something needs to be done.

Like become fascist?  Oops.  "We will stop at nothing to achieve our
goal of moderation!"

Your feelings of guilt do not excuse your actions in any way.  I am
not appeased.  (I'm not a libertarian, either: I'm an anarchist.)

Why does everybody think that the solution to problems always lies with
everybody else?  Change yourself first!  Otherwise all your strong talk
is worth nothing.

Everyone is always telling me how I ought to be protected from this, and
ought to not hear about that, and ought to do this, and blah, blah, blah.
I will indulge myself with a little hostility towards these people:

MAY YOU BE CURSED WITH BOSSES THAT TREAT YOU THE WAY YOU WOULD OTHERS.

Hmm.  That's already happened.  (As the house nation's brushes with 
the law suggest.)

FUCK OFF!  (Maybe you could use a good fuck.  I know I could.)

GET THEE BEHIND ME, BONEHEAD!  Ia Ia!  Cthulhu fhtagn!  Io Pan Io Pan Pan!
Shemhamforash!  Booga-booga-booga!

Sheesh.  I'm going to go ride my bike at 500 miles an hour until I can't
move my legs.  Then I'm going to crank Ministry at 120 dB until I go deaf
or the police come.  Be thankful I don't just kill you all.  Send me $20
now to avoid your grisly fate.  Just put a 29c stamp on the bill and
address it to "God".  Drop it in the nearest mailbox.  It'll get there.

"Better that all mankind should perish than one free man should refrain
 from any action that occurs to him"	-Freddie Nietszche

// g

(OK, it's a paraphrase.  Don't sue me, find the original.  The point stands.)


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 03:07:24 1993
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From: vampyre@uclink.berkeley.edu
Message-Id: <9309231004.AA02683@uclink.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: 190 Huh again
To: rslau@skat.usc.edu
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 03:04:54 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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> I happen to love 180+ bpm, and I can do more than 'pogo'.  I've never
> dropped, done lines, popped, shot up, etc but I can still feel the raw
> energy in hardcore.  But, I also happen to like trance, country, house,

YAY! me neither. and i never felt like i needed anything when i'm dancing
either...
i do a helluva lot more than "twitch" to faster BPM's, believe me... 

> wailing divas, metal and practically every other form of music under the
> sun.  You can't condemn or in any way slander a DJ for not playing only

yes! thank you - that's exactly what i was saying in an earlier post. 
i've found a new love of hardcore, yet i enjoy my classical tapes, my
thrash/death metal stuff...a whole slew of varying musical genres.
i don't see a point in putting down other people's tastes...to each his/her
own.

> Diversity not conformity.
> All i can say is, open your ears and your mind and enjoy...

*EXACTLY!*
yes, yes, yes. opening the mind - being open to new ideas, others opinions,
interests, anything- it's all part of the raving culture/community, & the
only way we can ever hope to grow closer & come to understand eachother.


-j

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 06:24:55 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 14:25:15 BST
Message-Id: <15657.9309231325@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: winston@lurnix.com
Cc: gary@ayrmis.enet.dec.com, howard%netcom.com%uunet@uunet.uu.net,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Mark Guthrie's message of Wed, 22 Sep 93 14:17:18 PDT <9309222117.AA02337@cassy.lurnix.com>
Subject: Re: Assorted ramblings from Scotland
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  Mark> I would be willing to bet that this is an ACCIDENTAL gun death statistic.
  Mark> Sit for a minute and think about how often you hear about this kind of
  Mark> unfortunate incicent and then compare it to how often you see/hear/read
  Mark> about people being robbed and shot by strangers with a strange gun.  It
  Mark> just doesn't add up.

In the UK, *most* murders are committed by someone known to the
victim.  Most people seem to find this statistic surpising.  

I'm not saying that the "most" will necesarrily be true in the US, but
i'm sure that it still accounts fo a large number of deaths.

	roy

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 06:28:46 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 14:29:42 BST
Message-Id: <15743.9309231329@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: mayer@netcom.com
Cc: mw@sybase.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: "Niels P. Mayer"'s message of Wed, 22 Sep 93 16:36:33 -0700 <9309222336.AA07643@netcom6.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: perhaps a less religious viewpoint on high BPM... 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



> "Plastic Dreams" was pretty big in SF when it was first released.  It was
> dead and buried by January.

  Niels> if it was dead and buried, how come i keep hearing it? I recently even
  Niels> heard it on live 105 (no, i wasn't actually listening to THAT station,
  Niels> sheesh! :-)

I think that's exactly what Mike means....!  :)

	Cosmic

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 07:12:54 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309231413.AA06098@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: SouthBayLunch ...
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 7:13:17 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


-- 

Just a quick reminder to let everyone know about
today's SFR South Bay Lunch ...

When: Thursday, 
Time: 12.00 noon
Where: Greer Park, Palo Alto

Directions:

* From 101 (South or North) take the Oregon Expressway Exit

* Left at the first signal - W. Bayshore
  (it's a frontage road that takes you south again)

* Follow this road approx. 1/4 mile (pass apartment complexes on right)
  
* You will see the park on your right hand side. Park in the first
  carpark to your right.

* We'll meet on the grassy knoll , behind the round baseball fence.

Bring lunch, toys, yourselves!




From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 08:02:00 1993
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 08:01:55 PDT
From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309231501.AA02459@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu
Subject: Re: GG Park Rave still on?
Cc: hyland@netcom.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>   Is the GG Park Rave -- October 3, Marx Meadow -- still on? Anyone know
> the hours?

The only thing that can stop it now is bad weather or a West Coast 
targeted nuclear war.  Call the Fluid Groove info line for updates.
The "legal" start time is actually 1:00, but we'll start the music earlier
if it looks like we can get away with it.  

From the SFRaves calender:

Sunday, October 3rd - SFR presents: Connection Earth
	Marx Meadow, Golden Gate Park!  Noon-5pm
	DJs Lee  Markie  Jon D.; audio by Sound Vision
	info: 415.487.8497	

- leg of eel

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 09:04:14 1993
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From: nrg@netcom.com (Ethan I. Miller)
Message-Id: <9309231604.AA17831@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Welcome Home
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 9:04:38 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Dear friends,

I wanted to take this opportunity to personally invite all of you to Home,
this Saturday, the 25th of September. It's the first big party I've done,
and me and my partner Mark Norby (of Tilt-a-Whirl) have really strived to
integrate all of the concerns that we as sfr have raised and discussed over
our time together into a really great party.

  the party will be 18+
  there will not be too much smoke
  there will be free water
  the party will be reasonably priced
  etc.

Also,it's very important to Mark and I that house music, raves etc. be more
that just a great party. Towards this end, 15% of any profit from this Home
and any future Homes will go to Bay Area homeless children in the name of
the Bay Area House Movement. A full financial disclosure will follow the
party...

Too, in many ways this is an sfr production: I'm promoting, Markie is
spinning, and Tony and Synergy will be providing visuals...

Because we feel this way, we would like to offer all sfravers and their SOs
a $3 discount at the door, bringing the total cost down to $12, a great value
I assure you. Just give us the address of sfraves
(sfraves@techno.stanford.edu) at the door to receive your discount. And
*Please* use this only for yourself and one SO  :)

As a reminder, the lineup is as follows:

Markie
Jon Williams
Simon (UK)
DRC (of YSH fame)
Galen 
Jordan (fresno)

Visuals by
Synergy
Liquid Sircus Delights

Audio by
Sound Vision

The party will be in San Francisco!  :)
Call 415.647.4788 for more info.

I really look forward to seing you all there!
love ya
ethan

PS: if anyone is interested in doing an sfr info table or a vrave terminal,
plz contact me ASAP...

*******************************************************************************
*    ethan miller                     nrg                     415.826.6137    *
*                            'one unbroken whole'                             *
*                               nrg@netcom.com                                *
*******************************************************************************
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 09:59:25 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309231659.AA24237@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Welcome Home Address
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 9:59:48 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Ethan Said -

> a $3 (SFR) discount at the door, bringing the total cost down to $12, 
> ... Just give us the address of sfraves
> (sfraves@techno.stanford.edu) at the door to receive your discount. And
> *Please* use this only for yourself and one SO  :)
> 
 But what if some old SFRavers say "sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu" by mistake?
Will we be refused entry by 400lb. doormen w/ bad attitudes? And will
"sfraves@sfraves.stanford.edu" be an acceptable alternate ???

 =>=>=> :-) <=<=<= 
 
> I really look forward to seing you all there!
> love ya
> ethan

 Unless something turns up at the last minute , I certainly intend to
be there! Hope to see & meet more SFRavers too!

				Larry Ching / larryc@netcom.com


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 11:01:07 1993
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 10:59:42 -0700
From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309231759.AA18201@koko.csustan.edu>
To: mayer@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Gang viol., gun cont., etc.etc....
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Neils says: I don't like the idea of censorship at all,
because of the fascist possibilities it entails. However, given that
violence is so fashionable, something needs to be done.

I agree. I beleive censorship is not democratic, but I also think censorship is
necessary in certain issues such as showing violence to children, censoring 
preaching prejudice and violence on rap or what have you, etc. This type of 
censorship is acceptable for the good of mankind (who knows mabe your own when
walking from your car to the rave party in "bad terf"). The censorship I am 
talkng about (and probably Neils) is the kind that only restricts children from
buying certain stuff, and not every single individual regardless of age.

Once a child is taught right from wrong and has his moral, social, and humane
values imprinted in his or her brain than there would be no threat of brainwashing
 them or detering them from what they beleive what is wrong and right regardless 
of what violence they are exposed to through the media and/or audio.

I mean we were all taught not to kill or be violent and we are all exposed to 
violence, but because we have our values imprinted in our heads we are not 
subject to carry out those acts regardless of how much we are exposed to it.
Most of the time we do not even bother exposing ourselves to violence that is 
exceedingly bloody.

If you ask me, movie producers would make more money if they concentrated more
on disney movies or the such than if they did in violent movies. Look at all the
movies that came out and make big bucks, many of them has violence but there 
were a few that didn't or at least had acceptable violence. Now if the actors
were not the hippocrits that they are they would have refused to do violent films
and turn the movie industry market around by making movies acceptalbe by all 
audiences, and make more money to make them fat and hearty for the big meal.


Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 11:05:37 1993
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 11:05:31 PDT
From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309231805.AA11029@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Welcome Home
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> Also,it's very important to Mark and I that house music, raves etc. be more
> that just a great party. Towards this end, 15% of any profit from this Home
> and any future Homes will go to Bay Area homeless children in the name of
> the Bay Area House Movement.

> we would like to offer all sfravers and their SOs
> a $3 discount at the door, bringing the total cost down to $12, 

Considering that there has been some criticism on SFRaves against
I-know-the-promoter elitism, some may want to consider not taking advantage 
of Ethan's friendly offer, especially considering that some of the $ is 
going to charity.  $15 is a lot, I know, and dealing with monetary reality 
often outweighs the pursuit of selfrighteous idealism.  What really matters
though, is that we give promoters who display and carry out good intentions 
our support.  See ya there!

- leg of eel

P.S.  Speaking of fun, I suggest that anyone who hasn't experienced a
Bulletproof boat party check it out this Sunday, before the weather gets
too cold.


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 11:39:35 1993
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From: wicked@netcom.com
Message-Id: <9309231839.AA19779@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: Mission Rock
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 11:39:58 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

	Hi y'all. If anyone feels like a groove tonight you can hear me at
Mission Rock. Otherwise see you tomorrow at HOME :)

	Markie  !)

 -- 

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 11:52:02 1993
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Message-Id: <9309231851.AA22774@soda.berkeley.edu>
From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 11:51:52 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: What SFRaves Means To Me
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>From one Brian to another, I hear ya man.

Usually when I post to SFRaves, I post as me, bbehlen, one of 277 list members.
Now, though, I want to speak as the SFRaves sysadmin, the guy who started the
list, the guy who runs it, and the one ultimately responsible for the traffic
it generates.

1) The gun control thread has simply gone on too long.  This is a very
emotional issue, and certainly an important issue these days, but
SFRaves is NOT an appropriate forum for discussion.  The thread should
have been taken to email or to a more appropriate mailing list or
newsgroup LONG AGO.  Usually I'm fairly leniant about off-topic posts
every once in awhile, but even I stopped reading this thread about 3
days ago.  This is not a suggestion, this is a REQUEST.

2) It takes all kinds of people to make the world go round.  And there
are going to be some people who have strong opinions and are always
willing to defend them.  Ask me about nitrous, or ask me about a
select number of other things, and I'll argue till I'm blue in the
face about them.  What I'm asking all you you to realize (as most of you
pretty much have) is that there are some people whose style of writing
makes those opinions sound like facts; so when you see posts from them,
giving them the benefit of the doubt and injecting "In My Humble Opinion"
clauses and "I believe" clauses here and there will do a world of good.
Learn to see through their words and try and see if you can decode what
they're really trying to get at.  

Okay, that's all for now.  Music, maestro, hit it!

	Brian

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 12:37:19 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309231937.AA15905@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: BPM viol., BPM cont., etc.etc....
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


"Ya know, that hardcore techno stuff, say anything over 140 BPMs, is so 
violent sounding...and don't skinheads in Germany listen to that crap
before committing acts of unspeakable violence?  Yeah, censor it.  That'll
fix things..."
	
I challenge anyone on this list who promotes increased censorship of the
arts to give up raving and all your favorite forms of music just to show 
us how willing you are to make such a sacrifice for the good of humanity!

- leg of eel  (Help!  I fell on this soapbox and can't get down!)

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 12:47:44 1993
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 12:45:33 -0700
From: scottie@uclink.berkeley.edu (Scott Everett Swiger)
Message-Id: <9309231945.AA10369@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: MOTHER EARTH SOUND SYSTEM #6
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


MOTHER EARTH SOUND SYSTEM

invites you to gather

for an end-of-summer fling

Saturday, Sept. 25

at Candlestick Park

with DJs

Brad
Scottie
Stonie
& guests

DIRECTIONS:
	From East Bay & SF:
	
	Take 101 South to Candlestick Park exit
	Make a RIGHT at the stopsign
	Follow road into Candlestick Park and look for cars parked
		along the right-hand side of the road
	Park and head WEST, towards the water - the entrance to the
		path you should follow is near the bathrooms
	Take the paved path out until it forks, then take the 
		LEFT-hand dirt path and keep your ears peeled

	From South Bay:

	Take 101 North to Candlestick Park exit and follow
		above directions

As always, this will be a free party, we just ask that you take care
	of the space and leave it cleaner than you found it

Try to arrive around 1 am and we hope to see you there!

Peace...

			*************************
			MOTHER EARTH SOUND SYSTEM
			*************************
			>>>respect your mother<<<
			*************************


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 13:25:05 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Repost of SFR Guidelines
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 13:26:18 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Here's the posting guidelines that Brian sent out several months
ago.  It's worth re-reading as a refresher every once in a while
(even if you think you already know what it says).


Message-Id: <9305042003.AA14014@soda.berkeley.edu>
From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Tue, 4 May 1993 13:03:28 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: GUIDELINES FOR POSTING TO SFRAVES
Status: RO

Some guidelines for posting to SFRaves.   Print this out and tape it to
your computer for handy reference.  This list will be given to all new
members from now on.

1)  First realize that

	a) SFRaves is a large mailing list.

	b) The volume is already quite high.

	c) For every editorial or opinion there are hundreds of
	   possible replies.

	d) Topics of world import such as feminism and race relations
	   will *always* be with us, at least for the current generation,
	   and while discussion about them is important the issues *won't*
	   be resolved by just talking about them here on the list.  They
	   are appropriate here as long as they aren't more appropriate
	   in soc.feminism, etc.

	e) Ego has NO PLACE on the mailing list.

	f) Even with a high signal-to-noise ratio, a high volume means more
	   people skim articles than actually read them.  This is a bad thing.

2)  Now for the general rules:

	a) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS - even if someone is being a complete
	   jerk and everyone agrees, please refrain from flaming him/her
	   in public.  Send him/her all the private email you want.  If
	   they flame you first, be the wise one and take the argument
	   off the list.  If he/she is truely being a jerk everyone knows
	   it anyways.  The difference between a well-reasoned argument
	   and a personal flame should be quite clear.

	b) Try and set an upper limit to your number of posts to 2 a day.
	   Making more is fine, but as you're typing your third make *sure*
	   it's something that's worth the time of the 250 people you are
	   sending it to.

	c) BREVITY IS THE SOUL OF WIT.  Paragraphs prove you have a point.

	d) Ranting is the opposite of raving (thanks to rth@netcom.com for
	   reminding us)

	e) Don't reply to a post until you have read your entire mail
	   queue and made sure no one else has replied exactly what you
	   would say.

	f) Refrain from making "me too" posts, where you simply add "I agree"
	   to the bottom of a quoted message.

	g) If you reply to a post someone makes, READ EVERY WORD THEY SAY
	   CAREFULLY, and in the absence of facial and hand gestures interpret
	   their comments in the best possible light.  It's very hard for the
	   "TV" generation (which we are whther you own a TV or not) to know
	   how to communicate without visual cues.  Make sure you understand
	   what the other person is saying.  

	h) If a conversation turns into a particulary heated argument, wait
	   at least an hour before making your reply, to allow you to see 
	   what they are saying in the absence of a testosterone rush.

	i) Be SURE of what you are saying when you say it.  Proofread your
	   comments several times.  Make sure your use of certain words is
	   the generally accepted use by the community at large, not what
	   *you* think that usage should implicate.


We are at the brink of something BIG here, and SFRaves can be a part of
it.  But only if we keep ourselves as high quality as we've been in the
past, and these guidelines are a part of it.  Anyone who's spent a good
deal of time on the net knows these as part of an unwritten policy, but
they bear repeated for those who are new.  

The Conciousness Revolution has begun.

	Brian


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 o derek chung  o  oracle graphics  o  dhchung@us.oracle.com  o 415.506.6195 o
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 14:04:32 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 13:58:38 PDT
Cc: sfraves-calendar@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFR Calendar)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



The important news this week is the upcoming hearing on the proposed
amendment to allow 18-20-year-olds into dance clubs in SF after 2am.
So if you are under 21, or if you have friends that are under 21, or
as long as you believe that it should be OK for 21-- people to dance
after 2am, it's IMPORTANT that you make your voice heard.  In city
politics it's much easier to have a big impact.

So go to the hearing at the Public Safety Committee meeting on Tuesday
morning at City Hall (details in the listings), or call the
supervisors on the committee (Supervisor Susan Leal 415.554.6644,
Supervisor Kevin Shelley 415.544.4005, Supervisor Hallinan
415.554.5184) to voice your opinion.  Believe it or not, there are
powerful opponents on this issue, so your input is crucial!  See the
article in the Bay Guardian for more details on the issue itself.

Now for the fun stuff.  HOME sounds like the big winner this weekend,
it's got SFR's fingerprints all over it. :)  But that's not all!
Tonight there's Your Sisters' House again and a new party, Delusions of
Grandeur; Corduroy City and Mission Rock on Friday, MESS also on 
Saturday.  All this, not for $99.95, not for $49.95, but only $34.95!
But wait!  On Sunday, we throw in the XLSF party for free!  Don't
hesitate, call those info numbers now!  Yes now!


*****************************************************************************
UPCOMING RAVES IN THE SF/BAY AREA                     	    Updated: 09.23.93
*****************************************************************************

Thursday, September 23rd - Delusions of Grandeur opens (see weeklies)

Friday, September 24th - Eden N93
	John Howard  Henrick  Code Blue  Richie Fingers  Steve Mitchell
		Kid Dice  Liquid  Maxx
	10pm - 8am.  Info: 415-267-7694	  510-906-6845	 408-450-2707

Saturday, September 25th - Awaken
	Jeno  Spun  Tony  Josh  Doran  Joe Harp
	near Stockton - buses from SF will be available
	415-442-7922  	209-569-7867	916-552-1599

Saturday, September 25th - HOME
	Markie  Jon Williams  Simon  DRC  Galen  Jordan
	Audio by Sound Vision/Visuals by Synergy
	15% of proceeds to benefit SF homeless children
	18+, SF location.  415.647.4788

Saturday, September 25th - MESS #6 
	DJs Brad, Scottie, Stonie & guests
	510.549.6240

Sunday, September 26th - XLSF opening party
	new X-Large store opened by SFRiend James Joaquin
	DJs Giamma & guests (bring CDs if you want to mix)
	867 Valencia, SF.  noon - 4pm, free!

Sunday, September 26th - Bulletproof boat party - see weeklies

Tuesday, September 28th - meeting of the Committee on Health, Public Safety
	and the Environment.  Hearing on the proposed amendment to the
	cabaret law to permit 18-20-year-olds to dance afterhours.
	10am, SF City Hall - 400 Van Ness Ave, Room 200.

Thursday, September 30th (I think) - the werewolves of SF will gather
	for an all-night ritual.

Saturday, October 2nd - Origin
	Doran  Spun  Josh  Tony  Jas
	415.905.8831

Saturday, October 2nd - Mr Floppy Presents...Aceeed!
	Mickey says be cool.
	[no phone number.  maybe it's the old Mr Floppy phone number?]

Sunday, October 3rd - SFR presents: Connection Earth
	Marx Meadow, Golden Gate Park!  Noon-5pm
	DJs Lee  Markie  Jon D.; audio by SoundVision
	info: 415.487.8497	

Saturday, October 9th - Energy
	Doc Martin  Ghost  Mojo Hand  Willy Wonka  Josh  Alfie
	Tattooing/body piercing/fruit & salad bars/smart bars/alcohol bars
	3-d visuals/3-d glasses
	415-995-4787	916-557-5845	18+, $10 before 11

Friday, October 15th - Liquid Air 
	DJs Tamara, Laura, Jon D.
	info: 415.487.8497	

Saturday, October 16th - Passage
	Noel  Ghost  Dave Alga  Dolphi  Rob  Ted
	510-505-8841

Saturday, October 23rd - Basics
	Tony  Doran  Josh  Spun  Jeno  Jon Williams
	415-905-9629

Saturday, October 23rd - The Cat in the Hat - 415.995.4646

Saturday, October 23rd - "a big event w/lots o promoters" [thanks, susie :) ]

Sunday, October 31st - Casper (more details to follow)

Saturday, November 20th - Come Together

Penelope's Web 2 - at the same location as the first, more details to follow...
	415-765-7671

Tribal Funk - 415.756.1531 - details to follow

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        People who want to send money, cards and other goodwill 
	thoughts to Malachy can make checks payable to the:
                M. O'Brien Healing Fund
                1388 Haight st #117
                San Francisco CA. 94112
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be-AT INFO LINE: 415-626-4087. 
The Elmo line - (415) 884-ABCD
Ameba - 415-750-9368
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some weeklies - whether or not they count as real "raves" is 
debatable, but they were advertised by flyers and the music could be
good. If anyone can provide reviews of them, i.e., their appropriateness 
in being on the list, let me know.  Also let me know when any of them stop...

Thursdays

SFR South Bay Lunch - noon at Greer Park in Palo Alto.  
	e-mail larryc@netcom.com for directions.
YOUR SISTERS' HOUSE - 9pm discussion - 10pm-4am funkygrooves - 415-765-7670
Deep Space - 200 N. 1st Street, SJ - 21+ - Rick Preston, others
Universal Groove - Carlos, Ghost, Dutch, Dave Alga, Duran (sic), Bones
	$5.  415.281.5913  510.869.2727
Overnight Xpress - 1 Bolivar Drive, Berkeley - 415.266.8232  408.236.2032
Ajax - Acid Jazz w/Harry Who (San Jose)
Eclipse - 2520 Camino Diablo, Walnut Creek. open till 4, 18+
Delusions of Grandeur - every other Thursday - Jon Williams, Robbie & Scott
	Hardkiss.  Ambience by SpaceTime Continuum.  Visuals by Synergy.
	10pm - 6am, 1015 Folsom. 

Fridays

Mission Rock - 817 China Basin - $5 - 21+
	[9/24 - Markie and guest]
Life - Sound Factory - 525 Harrison @ 1st, SF    415.543.1300   21+
Corduroy City - $5 - 11-6am - 415.974.9715
Dig! - Cleo's Cafe @ Haight&Pierce. Acid Jazz & deep house w/Charlotte
	and Rasoul.  5-10pm, no cover, all ages.

Saturdays 

Lost It - Steve Mitchel, Dutch, Richie, La Paix - 2am-noon - $5 - DNA Lounge
Housing Project - 6am-2pm - DJ Dani & guests - End Up 401 6th @ Harrison, 21+ 
Deep House Sessions at the Groove Station  1141 Polk St  6-9 pm  FREE
Cornbread - acid jazz, house - noon - blondies, 540 valencia@16th 415.487.6246
Funky Underground - Dimensions, S 1st St, San Jose 408.920.1762
Rhythm - Neon Leon, Jan Cooley, Markie - 177 Townsend - 21+ - 415-281-3344
The Fridge - on hold - $7 - 21+ - 415-487-6305
Aurgasm - on hold - collective T.A.Z. - $5 before 12 - 415.974.9363

Sundays

Boogie Buffet - 1015 Folsom - 6am-2pm - 415-979-8845
EndUp from 6am - 6th & Harrison
Cleo's Cafe - Haight & Pierce - informal YSH gathering - 2pm-8pm - free!
Once is Never Enough - $5, "6:00 am til we hit the beach", 415-905-6443
Bulletproof boat party - 5-9pm pier 40 (last Sunday of each month) 
        Tickets at Bulletproof 629 Haight (255.7168)
Spundae - various guest DJs - 55 Natoma  
the ambient club - spike's, 8th & Minna, 10 till 2 am
Tranceformation - 201 9th @ Howard - $3, 21+ - 415-267-6189
The Sky High Club - Djs Louis Walden & Mike Manahan
	Sir Francis Drake Hotel, 450 Powell. 9pm-3am  415 392-7755 ext.2212
Punch Drunk - Cal's, 2001 Union St @ Buchanan - 6pm - 415-776-7036
Sunday Joy - 8th & Kirkham (in the Sunset) - 2pm-7pm - $2
Deep Forest - Carlos, Dutch, & Guests - 7am-? - 18+ - $3 - 415.679.8070
Flapjacks - by Curious George - 18+, 6am-3pm, $4 incl. pancakes. 510-505-8841

Mondays 
Pepper.  Deep House with Buck, Josh, Chris Lum. 668 Haight, 10-2AM, $3, 21+. 
Mushroom Jazz - acid jazz w/Mark Farina, Thomas, Ammon, Is, Alex, Kevin
	$3, 9pm-3am.  Club Oasis, 278 11th St, 21+. 415-905-8811
FreeLife - every other Monday at F/X in San Jose.
Depth Chamber - temporarily on hold - 9-2am, 21+, (415)241-1560

Tuesdays 

Together - Simon, Garth, guests - Big Heart City (339 Jessie) 415-979-8825
Progress - 150 S.2nd St in San Jose (Club Oz, lower level entrance).
	21+, 408-236-2284.  DJs Julius, Rick Preston, Leonard & guests

Wednesdays 

Housing Project - DJs Jeno & Josh. 9-330am @ the EndUp, 401 6th @ harrison 21+
Recycle - 16th & Harrison - 18+ - 415-599-3750.
Mystery School - 525 Harrison @ 1st (Sound Factory) - 21+, 11pm - sunrise
	415-337-4905
Tilt - Jan Cooley, Neon Leon, Frankie Feliciano, Roger S. - 540 Howard (DV8)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONNECTION 2 TAPES >> 4 cassettes >> 6 hours >> complete live house
DJs: Moonpup, Scott Hardkiss, Jon Drukman, Lee and Blurrr 
contact Bob Ramstad (boccibob%groovy@us.oracle.com) 
$15 + $5 shipping, $5 of which goes to the Malachy O'Brien healing fund 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

RADIO SHOWS: 
Saturday mornings 1-3:30am - Mescalina, KALX 90.7 (Berkeley)
Sunday mornings 1-3:30am - Minor Minor KALX 90.7 (Berkeley)
Mondays 10pm - Belladonna, KFJC 89.7, Foothill College (Los Altos Hills)
Tuesdays noon-3pm - "London Jamaica" w/Unknown KZSU 90.1 (Stanford)
Tuesdays 7:30-10:00pm - Pete Gracious, KSCU 103.3 (Santa Clara)
weeknights ~9pm - the Modern Mix w/Steve Masters KITS 105.3 (SF)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone has info on any other events, submit them! I can't possibly hope
to get all the info every week. 

Brian Behlendorf, bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu, 510-649-0351 and
Derek Chung, dhchung@us.oracle.com, 415-506-6195


To subscribe/unsubscribe to the calendar mailing list, send e-mail to
majordomo@sfraves.stanford.edu with either the line

subscribe sfraves-calendar   or
unsubscribe sfraves-calendar   

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 14:34:51 1993
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	id AA24904; Thu, 23 Sep 93 14:34:49 PDT
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 13:41:16 PDT
From: hart@ntmtv.com (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309232041.AA05425@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: ames!concert.net!drum, ames!concert.net!drum-plus,
        funky-music@Athena.MIT.EDU, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: I sent this to the Pres, maybe you can too!!
Cc: ntmtv!hart
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hey,

I sent the following letter to the pres and vice-pres, outlining my disfavor
with the Clipper Chip/Skipjack "encryption with a trap door" proposed
policy.  I find that it compromises the privacy of law-abiding people and
that a trustworthy "escrow agency" is realistically impossible to find
and maintain in this age of Watergate, Iran-Contra-Gate, the S&L Scam,
and most importantly, the Inslaw Software Affair, which involved the 
use or mis-use of just such a trap door by none other than the Justice
Dept. itself!!  You are free to copy my letter, and/or change it to
suit your own position on this, but I  urge that you make your opinion
heard while there is still time and before policy becomes set in stone.

YOU MAY NOW RETURN TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAM...


*


----- Begin Included Message -----

From hart@ntmtv Thu Sep 23 13:26:27 1993
Return-Path: <hart@ntmtv>
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	id AA04973; Thu, 23 Sep 93 13:26:22 PDT
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 13:26:22 PDT
From: hart@ntmtv (Chris Hart)
Message-Id: <9309232026.AA04973@nmtvs313.mtvyp>
To: PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV, VICE-PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV
Subject: Clipper/Skipjack Is Not Acceptable
Cc: hart@ntmtv
Status: R


Dear Sirs,

I strongly agree with the statements made below with respect to the issue
 of cryptography and the use of a trap door accessible to any government
 agency.  I don't believe there is ANY legitimate reason to compromise
 the privacy of any persons in this country.  Please abandon the attempt
 to institute any encryption policy involving any escrow system or trap door
 of any kind.  Please the the statements below; I agree with them strongly and
 urge you to adopt policies that conform to them.  Thank you very much for
 your time and consideration.

Chris Hart
1827 Haight St. #8
S.F. CA 94117
(415) 771-7017
hart@ntmtv.com

(This message was composed by voice)

A Policy on Cryptography

1.      There should no law restricting any use of cryptography by private
citizens.

2.      There should be no restriction on the export of cryptographic
algorithms or any other instruments of cryptography.

3.      Secret agencies should not be allowed to drive public policies.

4.      The taxpayer's investment in encryption technology and related
mathematical research should be made available for public and scientific
use.            
5.      The government should encourage the deployment of wide-spread
encryption.

6.      While key escrow systems may have purposes, none should be
implemented that places the keys in the hands of government. 
 
7.      Any encryption standard to be implemented by the government should
developed in an open and public fashion and should not employ a secret
algorithm. 

And last, or perhaps, first...

8.      There should be no broadening of governmental access to private
communications and records unless there is a public consensus that the
risks to safety outweigh the risks to liberty and will be effectively
addressed by these means.    

If you support these principles, or even if you don't, I hope you will
participate in making this a public process.


----- End Included Message -----


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 15:28:18 1993
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	id AA25243; Thu, 23 Sep 93 15:28:15 PDT
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 15:12 PDT
From: YOUR FRIEND MIKE <MROMO@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>
Subject: Deeeeeep Space
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <AC80FAA7A001CD93@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>
X-Envelope-To: sfraves@techno.stanford.edu
X-Vms-To: IN%"sfraves@techno.stanford.edu"
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


For all you people in the South Bay, look at next Wednesday for a party
at Selectionz or something like that off of Brokaw on Oakland road...I
went last night, it's Rick and Harry's new event with Randall, and it 
was a lot of fun, it's like a mini EndUp, complete with Patio.  I think
that it's gonna be a really good scene, especially since last freeLife
was the last one (sigh) apparently.  So look for that next wednesday, 
I will post more concrete info as I get it.


Tonight at the Oasis is a great line up with Spun, Wool, Dutch and Ernie
Munson.  Dutch is really good (I know, no opinion about it ;) ) and
Ernie is,...well, Ernie!...it should be a good time.  The best way to do it?
get there around 9:30, get stamped, go to ajax and mellow to some jass
(jazz) spun by Julius and then go back to the oasis...it's a good night,
and it costs you the beers...

I will be there along with the regular crew, so we hope to catch up with
all y'all...

be happy the weekend approacheth!

m i k e

(I can log on from work and boy am I happy)

****** FAKE FOOTER FOR THE MASSES *******


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 15:55:27 1993
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Message-Id: <9309232255.AA26766@ploor.pa.dec.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Deeeeeep Space
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 23 Sep 1993 15:12 PDT
    from YOUR FRIEND MIKE <MROMO@scuacc.scu.edu>
    <AC80FAA7A001CD93@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 15:55:17 -0700
From: vivianm@src.dec.com
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU





>For all you people in the South Bay, look at next Wednesday for a party
>at Selectionz or something like that off of Brokaw on Oakland road...I
>went last night, it's Rick and Harry's new event with Randall, and it 
>was a lot of fun, it's like a mini EndUp, complete with Patio.  I think
>that it's gonna be a really good scene, especially since last freeLife
>was the last one (sigh) apparently.  So look for that next wednesday, 
>I will post more concrete info as I get it.

The music was great I agree. There was a really small crowd but I 
think I knew almost everybody and met some new people.  I hope it 
picks up, the music was great.  It is officially called Limbo Lounge, 
and I believe it was Randall's event, with the help of Rick and Harry.  
Rick is trying to put something together on alternate Wednesdays 
if this works out, at FX.
But freelife is going to continue starting Monday October 4th at Greg's bar at 551 W. julian at Montgomery.




vivianm
(well I guess i haven't unsubscribed yet)

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 16:36:41 1993
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From: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone)
Message-Id: <9309232338.AA01313@unislc.slc.unisys.com>
Subject: What SFRaves *Really* Means To Me
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (Bay Area Ravers)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 17:38:09 -0600 (MDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 565       
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU




OK, sorry for my earlier negativity.  I'm better now.  Smooches and
Hugs to everybody!  :)   And here everyone, have a virtual Blow-Pop!


      O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 
      | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


mmmm... 


-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-
              Activate the rythym that has always been within.
                    Shamanic, artistic, archaic revival.
-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 17:58:43 1993
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From: dms!curly!grigsby@netcom.com (JUMP IN THE FIRE)
Message-Id: <9309240042.AA04236@curly.agames.com>
Subject: Re: Deeeeeep Space
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 17:41:59 PDT
In-Reply-To: <AC80FAA7A001CD93@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>; from "YOUR FRIEND MIKE" at Sep 23, 93 3:12 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

About Deep Space tonight:

> I will be there along with the regular crew, so we hope to catch up with
> all y'all...

I should be there sometime depending on how work goes.  Look for the
caffeine molecule shirt and/or the long silly hat (toque?).  Greetings
and hugs cheerfully accepted and given.

// g



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 18:07:30 1993
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From: nineball@remarque.berkeley.edu (9ball)
Message-Id: <9309240107.AA25575@remarque.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Sorry to be negative, but this is sort of a last request of a dying
sfraver.  Please, please, fucking well please, be more courteous
in posting to this list.  Some of us in the Stone Age still read
at 2400 baud.  I have enjoyed reading and posting to this list
articles relevant to raving AND relevant to most other list members
since it started, but I'm at the end of my thread (pun) with sifting
through megabyte after megabyte of people's personal
attacks and personal pet threads which belong elsewhere.

Comments like

"use procmail or other mail
distribution agent to filter your mail...Don't worry be happy"

in response to suggestions for appropriate discussion venues is
akin to people who let their dogs shit anywhere they want, and
tell you to "watch where you step".  Yeah, whatever.

When you notice yourself typing phrases like

"This is really ridculous and childish"

you're probably right.  Other catch phrases which tell you
it's time to go to private e-mail are things like:

"petty name calling" and "How did I call someone a name?"


I'm almost outta here.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 18:22:08 1993
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 16:47:53 -0700
From: scottie@uclink.berkeley.edu (Scott Everett Swiger)
Message-Id: <9309232347.AA17461@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Update: MOTHER EARTH SOUND SYSTEM #6
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Someone brought to my attention a mistake in our party directions, so here's
the corrected version:

From SF & East Bay...
Take 101 South to Candlestick Park exit
RIGHT at the stopsign
Enter the park and look for cars along the right-hand side of the road
Park and walk EAST towards the water (the entrance to the path you should
	follow is near the bathrooms)
Follow the paved path until it forks, then take the LEFT-hand dirt path
Perk up them ears!

The most current location info will be on Whit's answering machine:
	(510) 549-6253
Check this number the night of the party, and if the party gets moved.

Remember to prepare for chilly weather, as this spot is by the water and
	may be windy (also shades for the sunrise over the Oakland Hills :)

Peace...
			*************************
			MOTHER EARTH SOUND SYSTEM
			*************************
			>>>respect your mother<<<
			*************************

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 23 19:20:35 1993
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 19:19:11 -0700
From: red@net.bio.net (Ben Wing)
Message-Id: <9309240219.AA19700@net.bio.net>
To: nrg@netcom.com
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Welcome Home
Newsgroups: 
In-Reply-To: <9309231604.AA17831@netcom3.netcom.com>
Organization: Straight On Till Morning
Cc: 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

In article <9309231604.AA17831@netcom3.netcom.com> you write:
|
|*Please* use this only for yourself and one SO  :)

Discriminatory against polyamorists!!

;) ;)

ben

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 04:32:08 1993
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 07:26:59 EDT
From: abbe@bronze.lcs.mit.edu (John C. Abbe aka Rademir)
Message-Id: <9309241126.AA25018@bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
To: brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  What SFRaves means to me
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com (Brian Sassone) wrote:
>What SFRaves means to me...
> 
>Recently:
> 
>        - Off topic threads
>        - Opinionated thoughtless responses
>        - Personal attacks
>        - Flames
>        - Point, counter point
>        - Rant, rant, rant
>        - Me, me, me
>        - Lack of caring
>        - Lack of restraint
>        - Lack of tolerance (I guess I'm guilty now, too)
>        - Lack of human compassion
>        - Lack of community
>        - Lack of vibe

Heyo heyo,
I know that Brian has since ~apologized for being in a bad mood when he
wrote this, and I'm sure he didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, as I
do not. But what he's talking about is kind of going on. And I wonder
why? Is it as simple as sometimes individual people get carried away and
things get a little (or a lot, depending on your perspective) flame-y?
[having now set up the straw man, I will proceed to knock it down :]

Brian also asked:
>Is there some bad shit going around, wrong phase of the moon, a karmic
>catastrophe?  What?

I don't think that any of us think that the flamage is what SFRaves is *all*
about, but yeah, it is in there somewhere, and it's been out and about
some lately. Maybe Brian is speaking for the group in some sense, and
there is some stuff going on that underlies the recent flaminess. In fact
to me it seems normal that a still relatively young community like this
is going to have lots of issues about what what makes someone part of
the scene. Is it politics? Your BPM preferences? Whether you live in/near
the physical origin of the scene? I see this as one (1) possible reading
of the subtext that may exist beneath what's been going on.

At last week's YSH, I was at the discussion, and my topic, "Being aware
of the group-as-a-whole" was selected. This is the kind of thing I meant
by that, if it helps any :)

Most of you are hopefully sweating and smiling, on your way out of YSH
right now. Sorry I missed it, maybe next week...

Peace,
--John

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 07:40:08 1993
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Message-Id: <9309241440.AA06508@soda.berkeley.edu>
From: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 07:40:02 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  What SFRaves means to me
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The "what SFR means" thing is starting to disturb me.

When Brian S. first posted his list
>        - Off topic threads
>        - Opinionated thoughtless responses
>        - Personal attacks
>        - Flames
>        - Point, counter point
>        - Rant, rant, rant
>        - Me, me, me
>        - Lack of caring
>        - Lack of restraint
>        - Lack of tolerance (I guess I'm guilty now, too)
>        - Lack of human compassion
>        - Lack of community
>        - Lack of vibe

I started to wonder if maybe me talking about music was somehow considered 
off-topic by the community.  As far as I can tell from the above list and 
from reading sfraves since June, the only "safe" topics of discussion are 
what parties you are going to, what ones you have just been to, how spiritual 
things are, and PC things like feeding the homeless and registering to vote.

Then I saw John Abbe's post, and really started to wonder:
>Your BPM preferences? Whether you live in/near
>the physical origin of the scene? 

Since I was a heavy contributor to the BPM thing *and* I don't CURRENTLY 
live near San Francisco I feel REALLY singled out by this.

So, my question is:  should I just refrain from posting unless it's to praise 
a recent SF party?  

I really feel like I'm somehow being censored here for (1) daring to attempt 
to discuss music in depth and (2) living 2500 miles away yet daring to post 
to the list.

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 08:40:00 1993
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 08:40:16 -0700
Message-Id: <9309241540.AA18991@netcom.netcom.com>
To: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re:  What SFRaves means to me
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>The "what SFR means" thing is starting to disturb me.
>
>When Brian S. first posted his list
>>        - Off topic threads
>>        - Opinionated thoughtless responses
>>        - Personal attacks
>>        - Flames
>>        - Point, counter point
>>        - Rant, rant, rant
>>        - Me, me, me
>>        - Lack of caring
>>        - Lack of restraint
>>        - Lack of tolerance (I guess I'm guilty now, too)
>>        - Lack of human compassion
>>        - Lack of community
>>        - Lack of vibe
>
>I started to wonder if maybe me talking about music was somehow considered 
>off-topic by the community.  As far as I can tell from the above list and 
>from reading sfraves since June, the only "safe" topics of discussion are 
>what parties you are going to, what ones you have just been to, how spiritual 
>things are, and PC things like feeding the homeless and registering to vote.

At one time I thought that there was no such thing as "safe" topics.  But
after some thought,I think you're onto something.

>
>Then I saw John Abbe's post, and really started to wonder:
>>Your BPM preferences? Whether you live in/near
>>the physical origin of the scene? 
>
>Since I was a heavy contributor to the BPM thing *and* I don't CURRENTLY 
>live near San Francisco I feel REALLY singled out by this.
>
>So, my question is:  should I just refrain from posting unless it's to praise 
>a recent SF party?

Hell No Laura!  You should posts whatever you like.  Hell, if there is time
to talk about the homeless, then there is time to talk about BPM's, songs,
parties (good/bad), prefernces, things related to the scene, as well as
thing not related to the scene.  There is plenty of cross pollination to
keep things interesting.  I think that the recent flurry of whatever was
caused by some hitting, for lack of a better word, a panic button.  There
are some issues on the list that NOBODY can discuss without a flurry of
insults being traded back and forth.

Me thinks that most of them are directed at me, but then again, I do have a
larger than life ego ;).  Most have cited by "style" as being a major
problem.  Well, we all have to get over some things at some times, eh?

I would not worry about it.
 
>
>I really feel like I'm somehow being censored here for (1) daring to attempt 
>to discuss music in depth and (2) living 2500 miles away yet daring to post 
>to the list.
>
>Laura


Don't feel singled out...it happens to the best of us :)

Later,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 09:28:29 1993
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 09:24:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Arthur Chandler <arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: InterRAVE
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9309240947.A10844-c100000@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
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  Thought some of you/us might find this post interesting. I thought about
replying to him to tell him about V-raves here, but I haven't been there
in a while. Is the v-rave channel still going? And what is its address?
Maybe the interrave IRC channel would be a nice way to hook up SF rave
events with a world community of ravers.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 06:30:46 PDT
From: pmoore@PEG.APC.ORG
To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
Subject: A message from "Mitch"

Hello world. Some of you will know me from the Aleph mailing list.

I am physically at the offices of Pegasus Networking in Brisbane, Queensland,
Australia. A few blocks away at this moment Brisbane's first InterRAVE is
happening; it is in fact a rainforest benefit, all proceeds from the event
will go to support the Rainforest Action Network which, according to my
conversations with the organizers, will go to held develop more sustainable
and locally appropriate methods of economic interdependence, or some
such thing.. I am not an expert on what their methods are, but I have an idea
of their AIMS, which is to take us in their own way one step closer to a
truly better world.

The reason that this message is going out:

An InterRAVE, as I understand it, consists of a number of raves located in
different timezones around the world, all tuning into and out of the IRC
channel #interrave. (Parenthetically, I would like to urge that someone
forwar a copy of this message to emr@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au at Melbourne
University, since she wrote a rather well-known thesis on the topic of
IRC as social medim and I want her onboard some time in the next ten hous
if possible, to see whatever it is that ends up happening.)

The point is this: I have spent the last two years of my life networking, both
in cyberspace and out of it. Tonight, right at this moment, I feel the
potential to bring more of those different networks and the individuals on
them into contact with each other than ever before. It's hard to be more
specific about what it is that I'm trying to do at this stage because I
don't even know if I'm going to be able to get back onto the IRC channel
this evening. But at the very least, something is going to happen with
global ramifications, simply because people across the world in different
timezones will be plugged in during the event.

But to be more specific: I see the potential to greatly extend the power of
us each as individuals to actually affect the course of events here, not
just geopolitically or culturally but in a very literal sense, at the
level of planetary evolution. The conjunction of influences present
encompasses a great range of human cultures, as well as an awareness of
economic, environmental, and technological influences.

I am blathering on like this because I am trying to do whatever is
necessary to convince as many people as possible who will read these
words in time to make the effort to CONNECT TO THE CHANNEL.

Please forward this message on. I will see you if and when I can,

"Mitch"



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 09:46:27 1993
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 12:45:01 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309241645.AA01637@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  What SFRaves means to me
In-Reply-To: <9309241126.AA25018@bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <9309241126.AA25018@bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

John C. Abbe aka Rademir writes:
 > Brian also asked:
 > >Is there some bad shit going around, wrong phase of the moon, a karmic
 > >catastrophe?  What?
 > 
 > I don't think that any of us think that the flamage is what SFRaves is *all*
 > about, but yeah, it is in there somewhere, and it's been out and about
 > some lately. Maybe Brian is speaking for the group in some sense, and
 > there is some stuff going on that underlies the recent flaminess.

Well there's a lot of Ego going on lately. A lot of postings with the
general tone of "You have no clue," and a lot of personal attacks,
mostly by John Lee.

Now I don't think we have to be all flowery and overflowing with the
cream of human goodness all the time--we're only human--, but it is
possible to discuss things in a non-belligerent manner, and with a
little care for other person's feelings.  We have a small, very
intimate community. Ripping someone to pieces Usenet style because one
disagrees with them is very much out of place here.

I took some pretty harsh criticism for my flame of John. It came from
some people I love and whose opinions I consider important. I guess
I'd seen John jump down someone I cared about's throat too many times.
Normally, when I'm very upset and want to post something, I'll write
it and file it. A few hours later, I'll decide if I really want to
post it. Most of the time I throw it away. This time I didn't.  So I
apologise for the bad vibes and for those who were offended.

I really don't know what to do. I could permanently filter out John's
mail with about 20 seconds of work. But I feel he _does_ have
important and useful contributions to make, that I might gain from
them. At the same time, his presentation pisses me off. Tons of
attitude, passing judgement, personal attacks on peaceful people when
he disagrees with them.  Very inappropriate for this particular
community. Poison is the word that comes to mind.

Guess I need to think about it a while. I am really bummed out.

Sean


1. Who is your audience?
2. How do you want them to respond?
3. Is your presentation likely to cause them to respond in the way
   that you want? Why or why not?
4. How would you respond if someone made the same presentation to you?
5. What do you respond to?




From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 09:46:31 1993
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 09:34:31 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: Laura La Gassa's message of Fri, 24 Sep 1993 07:40:02 -0700 <9309241440.AA06508@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject:  What SFRaves means to me
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

laura la gassa:

>I started to wonder if maybe me talking about music was somehow considered 
>off-topic by the community.

not by me.

>So, my question is:  should I just refrain from posting unless it's to praise 
>a recent SF party?  

no.

>I really feel like I'm somehow being censored here for (1) daring to attempt 
>to discuss music in depth and (2) living 2500 miles away yet daring to post 
>to the list.

don't!

obviously i'm not the moderator, but i think that talking about bpms,
style of dancing, and comparisons of east coast vs west coast rave
culture are FAR more appropriate to this forum than gun control,
homelessness, &c.  obviously a social conscience is a good thing but
as mike of the young ones says, "a social conscience is like a garden
shed - you try to eat it, it'll stick in your throat."

please take the social issues to email and leave the more directly
rave related material to the list.

obviously i've just violated my own charter but i don't want laura to
feel that she's done anything wrong.  she needs public exoneration!

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 09:56:19 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309241656.AA07319@netcom6.netcom.com>
Subject: Outdoor Sound - Thanks!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 9:56:39 PDT
Cc: renegade@nexsys.net
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Thanks to the folks who answered my questions about outdoor sound 
equipment. Here's a summary of the information sent to me:


Sources of information: 

MIX magazine - Saw it at Tower Books , but didn't get it , as it seemed 
   to be aimed at the studio environment and high-end/high $$$ professional 
   market.

Mobile Beat magazine - Self-described as "The Magazine for Professional 
   DJs & Mobile Entertainers" , it seems to be much more geared to what I 
   was looking for than MIX magazine. It's a bi-monthly , published by LA 
   Communications , Inc. in East Rochester , NY. It's full of news , 
   reviews , and hints for people trying to make a living as a mobile DJ . 
   Lots of ads for cases and racks , truntables , mixing boards , samplers 
   , and other audio and lighting gear.

( For your info , the Tower Books store I'm refering to is in the South 
Bay , next to Tower Records at the border of Mountain View/Los 
Altos/Palo Alto )

Newsgroup rec.audio.pro - I took a peek at this newsgroup , and I have 
   the same initial objection to it as I did to MIX magazine - too 
   indoor/studio orientated for my purposes. Still ,it looks like an 
   informative newsgroup , and I may post some questions there eventually.


Recommended equipment/hints :

 I didn't get much in the way of direct endorsements of specific models 
or brands . Here's what I got:

connectors: XLR or Neutrik brand. Also , connector covers to keep out 
    sand & dirt .

cases: Anvil EIA "flight rack" w/ removeable front & back covers , 
    wheels or casters.

tarps: To protect electronics and speakers .

amps: Carver , for good watts/lb. density - 250W/250W in an 8 lb. amp , 
    for example.




                     Thanks again!
                     Larry Ching / larryc@netcom.com

PS - People have only posted about Technics turnables , when they ever
     mention turntables in a post. Why Technics turntables , vs other
     brands ( Gemini or Denon ) ?



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 10:52:06 1993
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From: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 10:51:53 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: Arthur Chandler <arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: InterRAVE
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

vrave still exists

telnet techno.stanford.edu 7283

login as new and follow the directions to give yourself an account.

If memory serves me correctly, the interRAVE thing was suggested by
a vraver from Sydney who is also a rave DJ (hardcore) there and wanted
to get vrave set up at one of the raves he was spinning at.  I'll ask
him the next time I "see" him and will let you know for sure.

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 10:56:33 1993
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From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309241756.AA04517@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: flames...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sean writes...

>general tone of "You have no clue," and a lot of personal attacks,
>mostly by John Lee.

I have met John Lee on numerous occassions,  and as a person I find
his postings quite surprising which don't really reflect him as a person,
so I can only assume that perhaps he is ommitting a smiley face in his
postings,  and perhaps they shouldn't be taken that seriously...  I
hope he takes this as a complement....   As always,  postings don't
often really reflect a persons mood and can often be taken seriously.   
I know that my postings have also done this,  mostly because I stupidly omit
the :-).

By the way,  after talking to a lot of people,  I think that the HOME rave
is happening this weekend,   so thats probably where I'll be this Sat nite
so I'll see Ya all there....

Re:  the BPM issue,  although I find it frivilous,  I think that music
discussions,  dance stype,  etc should NOT be banned from sfraves,  but this
gun control stuff should perhaps go off-line.  No flames pleeze...

CC

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 11:57:45 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309241805.AA05434@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, uunet!netcom.com!larryc@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Outdoor Sound - Thanks!
Cc: renegade@nexsys.net
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Larry asks:
>PS - People have only posted about Technics turnables , when they ever
     mention turntables in a post. Why Technics turntables , vs other
     brands ( Gemini or Denon ) ?

Because there are no others.  Pretend those other brands don't exist.  This
is the only example of a product that I can think of that isn't rivaled.
So far nothing comes close - yet.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 12:05:04 1993
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Subject: Re: Welcome Home Address
To: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 12:03:59 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309231659.AA24237@netcom.netcom.com>; from "Larry Ching" at Sep 23, 93 9:59 am
From: DWATANAB@uci.edu (Dana Watanabe)
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> But what if some old SFRavers say "sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu" by mistake?
>Will we be refused entry by 400lb. doormen w/ bad attitudes? And will
>"sfraves@sfraves.stanford.edu" be an acceptable alternate ???

what if some really old SFRavers say "sfraves@petrus.berkeley.edu"???

sorry... had to be done

 ,
dana

(at least its brief if not wit)

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 12:16:18 1993
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From: ambient@netcom.com (Joe Rice)
Message-Id: <9309241916.AA10139@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re:  What SFRaves means to me
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 12:16:37 PDT
In-Reply-To: <9309241645.AA01637@pilot.njin.net>; from "Sean Casey" at Sep 24, 93 12:45 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

While this isn't directly SFR related, I do believe it's list related 
considering recent threads.

Today's (9/24/93) LA Times has an article on some of the social facets of 
email.  Research has indicated that when using e-mail, as opposed to voice or 
more "personal" forms of communication, peope tend to be much more blunt and 
don't temper what they say.  One researcher noted that anything ambiguous will 
usually be taken in the worst light.

Perhaps something to consider before hitting that "R" reflexively.

-joe-
 
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 12:57:38 1993
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From: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Message-Id: <9309241957.AA22002@slack>
Subject: Re:  What SFRaves means to me
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF Raves)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 13:57:10 -0600 (MDT)
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> While this isn't directly SFR related, I do believe it's list related 
> considering recent threads.
> 
> Today's (9/24/93) LA Times has an article on some of the social facets of 
> email.  Research has indicated that when using e-mail, as opposed to voice or 
> more "personal" forms of communication, peope tend to be much more blunt and 
> don't temper what they say.  One researcher noted that anything ambiguous will 
> usually be taken in the worst light.
> 
> Perhaps something to consider before hitting that "R" reflexively.

FUCK YOU!!!


(joke son, it's a joke)

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 14:26:08 1993
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From: alves@bethe.ucdavis.edu (David Alves)
Message-Id: <9309242114.AA28547@bethe.ucdavis.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: blunt is good
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



>Today's (9/24/93) LA Times has an article on some of the social facets of 
>email.  Research has indicated that when using e-mail, as opposed to voice or 
>more "personal" forms of communication, peope tend to be much more blunt and 
>don't temper what they say.  One researcher noted that anything ambiguous will 
>usually be taken in the worst light.
>  -joe-
 
This is why email lists are interesting.  It is like writing letters but much 
faster - and thus sometimes, less well thought out.  You'll read the 
ocassionally post that is practically an essay and then read a knee-jerk
response.  

It is the anonymity of the medium that makes flaming easier.  
All the rigid formalism that letter writing used to entail
had its origin (I think) in preventing what we call flames.
It is a skill that has been lost over the last 50 years or so. 

Smileys and other net acronyms are shortcuts for personal expression.  
They convey what you could (should?) be able to get across in a really well 
written / well thought out post.  Stuff like humor, sarcasm, and humility.

I think,

Blunt is good.  It saves time.  It is efficient.
Smileys are fine.  They help people get it. They are not "required".
Brevity is *wonderful* (another sign of good writing), but not at the expense 
of accuracy.  Email need not be spoon fed.  
Don't assume a post will be "over there heads" cuz if it is people will
ask (hint hint personal email) or skip it and to do so contributes to the 
mediocrity of a discussion.

Reader beware.
Dave 



From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 15:37:11 1993
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 15:31:21 PDT
From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309242231.AA05839@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, uunet!slack.sim.es.com!pashdown@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re:  What SFRaves means to me
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

There was a similar article to the LA Times one in one of the UNIX pubs a
year or so ago, maybe it was  UNIFORUM.  Anyway, pretty much the same 
conclusions.  Normaly passive people tend to be a little more "balsy" or
aggresive in dealings because e-mail is so non-confrontational.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 15:56:59 1993
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 14:15:34 PDT
From: john@makesys.com (John Turman)
Message-Id: <9309242115.AA17256@makesys. com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Outdoor Sound - Thanks!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> 
> Larry asks:
> >PS - People have only posted about Technics turnables , when they ever
>      mention turntables in a post. Why Technics turntables , vs other
>      brands ( Gemini or Denon ) ?
> 
> Because there are no others.  Pretend those other brands don't exist.  This
> is the only example of a product that I can think of that isn't rivaled.
> So far nothing comes close - yet.
> 
> -Mark
> 

May I add? What about Micro-Seiki, or Thorens, or Bang&Olufsen, or Linn,
or how about Carver? There are a number of excellent turntables still in
existence that are far superior in their specs, and durability to Technics.

Why such prejudice towards such an inferior product?

Inquiring minds want to know.

John Turman
john@makesys.com

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 16:33:57 1993
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 16:34:13 -0700
Message-Id: <9309242334.AA02138@netcom.netcom.com>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Mr Angry....
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>John C. Abbe aka Rademir writes:
> > Brian also asked:
> > >Is there some bad shit going around, wrong phase of the moon, a karmic
> > >catastrophe?  What?
> > 
> > I don't think that any of us think that the flamage is what SFRaves is *all*
> > about, but yeah, it is in there somewhere, and it's been out and about
> > some lately. Maybe Brian is speaking for the group in some sense, and
> > there is some stuff going on that underlies the recent flaminess.
>
>Well there's a lot of Ego going on lately. A lot of postings with the
>general tone of "You have no clue," and a lot of personal attacks,
>mostly by John Lee.

And what does one call this?

>
>Now I don't think we have to be all flowery and overflowing with the
>cream of human goodness all the time--we're only human--, but it is
>possible to discuss things in a non-belligerent manner, and with a
>little care for other person's feelings.  We have a small, very
>intimate community. Ripping someone to pieces Usenet style because one
>disagrees with them is very much out of place here.

Um, what was HIS previous post about?

>
>I took some pretty harsh criticism for my flame of John. It came from
>some people I love and whose opinions I consider important. I guess
>I'd seen John jump down someone I cared about's throat too many times.
>Normally, when I'm very upset and want to post something, I'll write
>it and file it. A few hours later, I'll decide if I really want to
>post it. Most of the time I throw it away. This time I didn't.  So I
>apologise for the bad vibes and for those who were offended.

I have not jumped down nobody's throat.  And if I did, I resolved it with
them, not you.  So why not quit playing the "Avenging Angel" and relax.

>
>I really don't know what to do. I could permanently filter out John's
>mail with about 20 seconds of work. But I feel he _does_ have
>important and useful contributions to make, that I might gain from
>them. At the same time, his presentation pisses me off.

This presentation thing is rather old.  And has been dealt with most
recently.  But maybe not enough for Sean.  To each his own...

>Tons of
>attitude, passing judgement, personal attacks on peaceful people when
>he disagrees with them.  Very inappropriate for this particular
>community. Poison is the word that comes to mind.

"Poison" as percieved by you.  But you did mention personal attacks, and
attitude, and of course, passing judgement.  Now what does this last
praragraph do?  All I can say is CONTRADICTION.

>
>Guess I need to think about it a while. I am really bummed out.
>
>Sean
>


Yes he IS bummed out. I have not really flamed you once during this whole
charade. 

At this point he is quite angry and perturbed, so I won't mess with him
further.  I have toned down my , uh, "style" , as much as I'd care to.  If
you still have a problem with it, then I would suggest the delete key.  But
continuing these personal attacks, since I have ceased, accomplishes
nothing.



So if we can bury THAT dead horse we can now move on,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 17:17:32 1993
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To: "San FranDisco Ravers List" <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>,
        john@makesys.com (John Turman)
Subject: Turntable Terror (was Re: Outdoor Sound - Thanks! )
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 24 Sep 93 14:15:34 PDT."
             <9309242115.AA17256@makesys. com> 
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 17:17:54 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

From john@makesys.com (John Turman):
> May I add? What about Micro-Seiki, or Thorens, or Bang&Olufsen, or Linn,
> or how about Carver? There are a number of excellent turntables still in
> existence that are far superior in their specs, and durability to Technics.
> 
> Why such prejudice towards such an inferior product?

Well, I'd venture that most radio shack products sound just as good as
Bang&Olufsen, but they're not as pretty and don't have the required yuppie
cachet. People that buy B&O usually know nothing about sound -- they're
buying a pretty "appliance" rather than a system scientifically designed to
reproduce music accurately. IMHO, their stuff really isn't that good,
sounds mediocre, but costs as much as decent low-end audiophile equipment
that sounds tons better. (and i'm sick of slick euro-design -- gimme
something truly ugly, like a mackintosh! (not the computer))...

And i'm sure backspinning isn't pretty with B&O's linear tracking tonarm.

As far as the other "high-end" turntables you mentioned, the problem is
that they're designed for low-tracking weight stylii (e.g.  0.75-1.25 g)
and are build in a very delicate fashion. DJ and radio equipment is built
for abuse, and designed so that the needle will grind through the 6 inches
of slimy bongwater that have besludged one's records, and built so that
they spin up to speed in less than one rotation; it's not uncommon to see
DJ/broadcast stylii spec'd for tracking at 3.5 grams, and DJ's that are
planning on doing tricks sometimes crank it up to 5 grams so that the
needle stays in the groove no matter what. I'd venture to guess that, a
micro-seiki/linn/thorens only go up to 2 grams max, and the needle would be
popping all over the place in most club situations. THey'd also go out of
alignment after a few gigs, and would not be suitable for DJing cuz they
don't quite have the range of speed control needed for DJing.

(I have an old high-end "Dual" direct drive turntable myself, and i'm sure
it really sucks for DJing, but is good for playing back records accuratly.)

IMHO, techno is an amazingly lo-fi medium, and often sounds better on
medium and lo-fi equipment. On my "pseudo-audiophile" stereo system, I
don't often get the "crunchy" sound that you get when playing techno
through a more traditional home or club stereo system (maybe if I didn't
have a MOSFET power amp, it might sound a little crunchier). On the other
hand, my stereo makes saxophones/horns sound really sweet, while most
"consumer" or club systems make them sound like shit.... Similarly, techno
is the only music that sounds really good on my admittedly pathetic car
stereo, whereas jazz or classical indian music sound like shit and lose
much of their tranparency and clarity.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 18:18:41 1993
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From: laura@soda.berkeley.edu (Laura La Gassa)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 18:18:34 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Outdoor Sound - Thanks!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

John Turman wonders about something Larry and Mark said:

>> Larry asks:
>> >PS - People have only posted about Technics turnables , when they ever
>>      mention turntables in a post. Why Technics turntables , vs other
>>      brands ( Gemini or Denon ) ?
>> 
>> Because there are no others.  Pretend those other brands don't exist.  This
>> is the only example of a product that I can think of that isn't rivaled.
>> So far nothing comes close - yet.
>> 
>> -Mark
>> 
>
>May I add? What about Micro-Seiki, or Thorens, or Bang&Olufsen, or Linn,
>or how about Carver? There are a number of excellent turntables still in
>existence that are far superior in their specs, and durability to Technics.

Why such prejudice towards such an inferior product?

Well, the Technics in question are the Technics 1200 series of heavy-duty
direct-drive turntables.  These are turntables you can drop off a truck and
still use to DJ with.  No, they won't give you the sound quality of a
Bang&Olufsen table, but do you really want your B&O table sitting outside
on a beach with someone like Garth wanking the hell out of it?

I think the Technics are so popular because you can get them for a really
good price, and because for the money they do exactly what a 
house/techno/hip-hop DJ wants:  they play the records, stop on a dime, hold
pitch well, and don't freak when imbued with a bit of rain, fog juice, or
mud -- and if the cops end up with them at the end of the night you're only
out $350 a pop (on the grey market).

Laura

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 19:53:29 1993
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From: throb@netcom.com (Robert Oliver)
Message-Id: <9309250253.AA23675@netcom4.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: blunt is good
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 19:53:53 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>Today's (9/24/93) LA Times has an article on some of the social facets of
>email....
>  -joe-

Similar to pondering *how* to communicate in SFRaves,  I found it interesting to reflect on *why* we communicate on e-mail.  A previous (9/12/93) Los Angeles Times Magazine's topic was: "The Faceof Cyber Chaos, Five Writers on the Complex Seductions of Computer Culture."

One article (by Margo Kaufman) includes the following:

"As Dr. Joyce Brothers, the psychologist, who recently went on a cyber-business trip, told me, 'In small towns there used to be a general store and you'd sit around the potbelly stove and swap tales and gossip and deal with life.  Later, the stove became the drugstore.  Now it's the computer network.'"

...."the lost art of conversation is thriving on-line."

This last line sounds like a great quote for a signature.  Hmmm...

As the 'zine's title implies, the articles deal most with "cyberlove" and such.   For those of you that connect to the Net from work, Kaufman's article brought up an interesting point about wasted time:

"'When you talk about the decline in American productivity, one factor is that people get lost in cyberspace,' said Stuart Brotman, a communications consultant based in Lexington, Mass.  'It's pretty common in large companies.  People feel that it's their job to initiate and receive electronic messages,but as soon as they do that, they take time away from other things.'  He understands the appeal though. 'It lets you escaped your job without leaving your desk.'"

IMHO, Mr. Brotman's blanket statement about e-mail is like saying "people who work in cubicles take time away from work to talk over the wall and to whomever walks in."  His point at least provoked me into thinking about a continuum between "time saved" and "timed wasted" whenever we use e-mail for communication. We can easily produce examples of clear time savers and obvious time wasters, but there's some "grey" in there too.

Stop pondering!  You're wasting time!!  :)


Rob

throb@netcom.com
-- 

From sfraves-owner  Fri Sep 24 21:03:04 1993
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1993 20:51:15
From: Franklin Shotwell <shotwell@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: SpaceTime Continuum radio show
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9309242015.A13056-a100000@sandstorm.berkeley.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



	Apologies to those who tuned in a couple weeks back.
SpaceTime really is going to be on my show tomorrow night on KALX,
that's Sat night 1-3:30, 90.7 fm.
	I'm really excited about this -- Jonah is bringing by his
newest unreleased tracks, some solo and some in collaboration with
Terence McKenna, so we'll hear those along with an interview, and
plenty of ambience done up inna dj style.  I hope some of you will
tune in.
	Also, next week Lee An is going to swing by with his crates.
The invitation is open, for all you up and coming, or there and 
sticking (Marky, John) SFRDJs to swing by and modulate the megaHerz.


	(minor		shotwell@ocf.berkeley.edu
	 minor)		shotwell@dec-1.ce.berkeley.edu



From sfraves-owner  Sat Sep 25 20:09:35 1993
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Date: Sat, 25 Sep 93 20:09:47 -0700
Message-Id: <9309260309.AA16164@netcom.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: raise your hands....
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I heard some cop pulled a gun on the doorman at C City last night, true? 
Non? 

Geez...,
john

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 26 06:50:54 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309261350.AA25531@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
Subject: Gang Violence at MESS
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 93 6:50:32 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Some very bad violence occurred at Candlestick Park this
morning.  A local gang broke up the party, and some major
physical fighting broke out.  Some ravers tried to mediate,
things, others got beaten up while many cowered in fear
amongst rocks and trees.  Guns were present, but as far as
I know, no shots were fired.  There were many injuries with
at least 6 people requiring medical attention; cops,
firetrucks and paramedics came to the scene.

We hope everyone's OK, and if anyone else has more information
on this please let us all know.  Our hearts are with you; we
know that the MESS people are amongst the most peaceful and
caring people in our community.  We can only hope that the world
will become a better place than it is, and perhaps through our 
steadfast belief in this hope, we will help make it happen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com
____________________________________________________________________________

From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 26 08:15:19 1993
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Date: Sun, 26 Sep 93 08:15:31 -0700
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309261515.AA24259@netcom4.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: product sale
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hi- just a quick note to let ravelist people know that I'm running a final
sale on Intellex.This will probably be the last,because I'm trying to get
financing for a new product,one which won't be so bulk oriented. (so the
per drink cost on the new product will not be so low..but you _will_ be able
to buy smaller qualtities of it,though..Basically the reason is that these
bulk jars of high density product have been extremely expensive to
manufacture in low quantity,and so I'm changing the packaging,hoping that
the new product (probably available in January..after the legal situation
hopefully clears..) is a little more mass market..read profitable It's_so_
hard to get capital when you're a small,innovative company  .)

 The price is 30 dollars for each 1/4 kilo 83 serving bottle... Most of the
list people are familiar with this product,its a
choline/DMAE/pyroglutamate product similar to Source Natural's "Mental
Edge",except its considerably stronger and cheaper. It's unflavored and
mixes well with lemonade or cranberry juice-or really any tart fruit
juice..Its great for knowledge workers or tired ravers.It's so strong that
one only uses a _TEASPOON_ in each strong drink..Any more is too
much..believe it or not.Its also extremely hygroscopic,so keep the bottle
tightly shut.Intellex sucks water out of the air.
It should go without saying,but I have to make it clear that I make no
health or "intelligence increasing" claims for this product..Its simply a
strong choline supplement,one that is designed to be strong without
tasting bad...
 (If you've ever sampled the drinks at NASA's smartbar you're probably
familiar with it.Intellex was also served at the two Verbum "Digital
Be-Ins",at the ILM/Lucasfilm party at SIGGRAPH 93,at the Raveamerica party
at Knotts Berry Farm last New Years,at the Revelation and Future 1 and 2
parties in Washington/Baltimore last year,at most (actually,I think,all)
of the incredible GATHERINGs,Basics,Destinys and Vision 1 and 2 here in SF
and at most of the early ToonTowns,so it should be familiar to a lot of
people.Its the best choline product available.) I'm sorry,but I wont be
able to offer this price anymore.
This will be the last of this product, an extremely dense,very high
potency,choline (1 gram) pyroglutamate (600 mg) DMAE (350 mg) supplement.

So here are the specifics..My mailing address is POB 170156, SF,CA.94117-0156 

Payment should be by postal money order made out to Nutrient
Cafe Wholesale.(Please dont send personal checks, I have to wait for them
to clear and there simply isnt that much product left.Dont send cash either.)
Shipping is $6.00 first bottle,$1.00 for each additional bottle. California
residents please
add $2.47 per bottle sales tax.If you live in SF you can also pick up
 Thank you- I hope this message represents
enough of a unique situation to qualify as a message of universal interest
and not simply a commercial message. -Thanks again!
     Chris.


From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 26 08:42:43 1993
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Date: Sun, 26 Sep 93 08:25:27 PDT
From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309261525.AA00895@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Silly Laws...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



OK everybody, here's a chance to voice your opinion about
a number of silly and useless federal laws that waste taxpayers
money...

I know I can think of at least one ... :)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 25 Sep 1993 18:09:24 EDT
From:    Lisa Kimball <lisa@TMN.COM>
Subject: silly government regulations

PLEASE PORT

NETRESULTS, the team of people working on implementation and follow-up
to the Vice President's National Performance Review (reinventing
government) initiative are using the net to gather examples of
regulations which should be targeted for change or elimination.

If you know of a Federal regulation which could/should be investigated
to see if it could be changed or eliminated, please send info about
it to the NETRESULTS team.  The more details you have the better -
especially if you can give an example of how the regulation stands in
the way of a government which "works better and costs less."

Send your examples to:

    sillyreg@tmn.com


From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 26 10:59:25 1993
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From: Mark Metz / Future Forum <mmetz@soda.berkeley.edu>
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Subject: sky high club
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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THE SKY HIGH CLUB may be just what is needed after a long weekend of
bad directions,cops with no sympathy for raving, gangs, speed, dank
basement level parties.....

The Sir Francis Drake hotel has started to allow Mike Manahan and
friends to throw a Sunday night party in the fat-assed lounge
on the 21st floor, in the "starlight room". A view for sipping 
spirulina/lecithin laced bloody marys and reflecting on the weekends
events, as Richard Sun said "high above the Psychic plane".

10-2:00 Sunday night.

also Sunday the third is the last time we wil see mark ameba for a
while. He is going to go live with his wife and daughter in New Zealand
for a couple months. I think he would appreciate seeing the SFraves friends
more than anything, he has always had the highest regard for your efforts.

IT costs $5 Mike Manahan is a ripping progressive dj who is leaving
to start a scene in Guam. He plays progressive house/spiritual techno
which is almost my ideal (Hard trance With a Gay Vibe).

Salutations, 
Allen@ameba

From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 26 12:26:49 1993
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Date: Sun, 26 Sep 93 12:26:43 -0700
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To: lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com (Lee Fogel)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
X-Sender: jsl@netcom.com (Unverified)
Subject: Re: Gang Violence at MESS
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>Some very bad violence occurred at Candlestick Park this
>morning.  A local gang broke up the party, and some major
>physical fighting broke out.  Some ravers tried to mediate,
>things, others got beaten up while many cowered in fear
>amongst rocks and trees.  Guns were present, but as far as
>I know, no shots were fired.  There were many injuries with
>at least 6 people requiring medical attention; cops,
>firetrucks and paramedics came to the scene.

Man, I am really sorry to hear about this incident!  I hope that anyone who
was involved is OK or at least in the middle of a healing process.  If you
@ MESS are interested in security please contact me.  I have a few friends
(Not Lyon's mind you), who are pro's @ security.  Very inconspicuous, and
have handled situations WORSE than the one described.  Let me know...


>
>We hope everyone's OK, and if anyone else has more information
>on this please let us all know.  Our hearts are with you; we
>know that the MESS people are amongst the most peaceful and
>caring people in our community.  We can only hope that the world
>will become a better place than it is, and perhaps through our 
>steadfast belief in this hope, we will help make it happen.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com
>____________________________________________________________________________


My heart goes out to those folks as well!


Peace thru peace,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 26 14:01:23 1993
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From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309262101.AA19463@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: ORB!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

   Rumor has it the ORB are coming to San Francisco Oct 14 or 15.
-Don't know where yet..so please dont ask..
-Chris.

From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 26 16:31:57 1993
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From: rth@netcom.com (Robert Hughes)
Message-Id: <9309262332.AA01515@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Gang Violence at MESS
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


This from clarinews:

   San Francisco police report that about 10 people crashed an outdoor rave
party at a park near Candlestick early this morning and started beating up
the people attending the gathering.
   Officer Bob Hartmann said the suspects that crashed the party shortly
after 3 a.m. first danced with the crowd, but then started striking people
and taking wallets and other personal posessions.
   Police recovered the stolen goods and arrested two men and one juvenile
boy.
   A San Francisco General Hospital nursing supervisor said four victims of
the fight are at the hospital and in good condition.  She said three will
be treated and released and one of them may be admitted.
   
   NOTE TO EDITORS: The exact location of the fight is uncertain beyond the 
fact that it was at a park near Candlestick.  A San Francisco police 
officer at operations said it was at California Point State Park; a 
paramedics dispatcher at C-med said the call was at Giants Drive adjacent 
to Gilman Park; a fire dispatcher said it was at Gates A and B of 
Candlestick.
   


From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 26 21:12:44 1993
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From: geoffw@nexsys.net (Geoff White)
Message-Id: <9309270345.AA01213@nexsys.nexsys.net>
To: lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com, jsl@netcom.com
Subject: Re: Gang Violence at MESS
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Anybody got any more info on this?
(Was anybody actually there?
Please let me know.


			-G

From sfraves-owner  Sun Sep 26 23:58:19 1993
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To: geoffw@nexsys.net
Subject: Re: perhaps a less religious viewpoint on high BPM...
From: andy@wco.ftp.com  (Andy Nourse)
Cc: asah@cs.berkeley.edu, brians@unislc.slc.unisys.com,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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>    Myy energy source come from getting
>   plenty of exercise, meditation and doing yoga but that's another story.
>   (Actually for all you crunchies out there, my kundalini is active which
>   is why I can dance all night without drugs)

    It seems to me that I get my energy from the music
    and from all the other dancers enjoying the music...
    I'll at least try to dance to just about anything
    at any speed, any beat.  I particularly like dancing
    to African beats and other non-4/4 things.
    Those could wake me from the dead.

    Just trying to dance to something
    that is just on the edge of being danceable
    is a trip in itself.

    

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 00:39:58 1993
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Subject: Re: Contest, sorry butts stay home!
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>   Shoes will be confiscated so that they may go to the winner!

    You can have 'em.  I usually dance barefoot if at all possible anyway. 

    Seriously, does anybody know of any shoes that won't make my feet
    complain horribly (and usually blister) when danced in for as
    long as a good rave lasts?


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 00:49:26 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: ORB! 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Sep 93 14:01:36 PDT."
             <9309262101.AA19463@netcom3.netcom.com> 
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 00:49:09 -0700
From: Joachim Vance (The Underdog) <jvance@einstein.oac.uci.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>    Rumor has it the ORB are coming to San Francisco Oct 14 or 15.
> -Don't know where yet..so please dont ask..

  Not that this helps at all, but some of you might be interested to
know that the Orb will be in LA Saturday, October 16th at the Park
Plaza Hotel.

  So it would make sense that Orb would be in SF Thurs or Friday
before that.

Joachim

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 01:09:07 1993
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From: f1sami@uta.fi (Samu Mielonen)
Message-Id: <9309270808.AA03824@villakko>
Subject: San Francisco - out and about
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (sf)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 10:08:42 +0200 (EET)
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Dear sf-ravers,

A friend of mine is going to San Francisco next month (17-24.10) and he
asked me to bug you for information on raves, clubs & shops. I've been
raving about your scene (without having seen it myself) to him so many
times that I would really like to see his trip succeed. Therefor I would
appreciate personal comments & recommendations on clubs, raves etc. as
that is the kind of information that counts. I know from personal experience
that going to a record shops and skimming through the pile of flyers isn't
very helpful in determining what's good and what's a rip off (it's the 
cultural gap you see :) I might also add that Antti (the friend in question)
is no newbie to the scene and being somewhat disillusioned with the Finnish
scene he'd probably appreciate anything truly creative or out of ordinary
(be that a live performance or a 12" of the year). On a last note, if anyone
wants to volunteer to show him around (yes, he speaks english, but lacks
Internet access) that would be - in immortal words of Soundgarden -
UltraMegaOk :)

Your help is welcome,
Samu Mielonen

PS I'm quite the information I'm looking for floats around here daily, so
you might just as well reply personally to avoid wasting the wavelength.

the same

-- 
"Roll up for the Mystery Tour!"

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 01:42:21 1993
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From: red@net.bio.net (Ben Wing)
Message-Id: <9309270841.AA02653@net.bio.net>
To: geoffw@nexsys.net
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Gang Violence at MESS
Newsgroups: 
In-Reply-To: <9309270345.AA01213@nexsys.nexsys.net>
Organization: Straight On Till Morning
Cc: 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

In article <9309270345.AA01213@nexsys.nexsys.net> you write:
|
|Anybody got any more info on this?
|(Was anybody actually there?
|Please let me know.
|

I was there ...  the info given so far is basically right.  I got
there about 2am, and the shit started happening about a half-hour
later.  It was really too bad; there was a great vibe at the party,
cool acidy music, not very cold at all.  Maybe about 50-60 people
there.

It seems that there were about 10 gang-type people who were hanging
out and drinking somewhere nearby when the MESS people set up the
party.  (It was, I think, in the same place that the FMR a few months
ago got moved to, after the Water Temple was busted.  It was at the end
of a little spit of land that stuck out in the water, somewhere where
you get a good view of Hunters' Point across Candlestick Cove.)  The
MESS organizers told the guys that they were putting on a free house
party, come join if you want, dance, etc.  At some point, I think about
when I got there, they came, and at first were cool ...  but there were
maybe 2 or 3 in the group, real young ones who had something to prove
...  they thought they were being dissed by some people there, or
something ...  it was pretty random, and didn't seem like anybody
really did much to provoke them.  I didn't really catch what happened
until it erupted into a fight, maybe 4 or 5 guys attacking someone
named Ivan, a friend of the MESS people ...  they were also shouting
things like "someone wanna call me a nigger ...?  huh?"  Meanwhile some
older guys in the same group of 10 were trying to calm things down; one
guy, in particular, kept saying, "Man, we don't wanna fight, let's just
dance and enjoy it.  Come on, knock it off ..." etc.  It would calm
down and then erupt again (I guess the young ones were even getting
pissed off at their older friends for restraining them); at first there
was just that fight off to the side, and it wasn't really all that
noticeable, but soon it moved to the center and they had to shut off
the music.  They then tried to start again, but it was clear it wasn't
going anywhere.  They stopped the music and started to shut down, and
the gang types filed off, along with some ravers, including some who
said they'd call the police.  The gang types hung around for awhile and
(it seemed) thrashed a few others; the remaining organizers and ravers
(most of us still were there) were worried about leaving for fear of
getting attacked, esp. with the equipment that had to be carried out;
we were at the end of a spit of land so there weren't too many ways
out.  Some people wanted to leave on their own, but others said that
really wouldn't be a good idea; better to stay all together.  After a
half hour or so the police came by and the paramedics and such, and the
gang types took off.  There were some "scouts" being sent out by the
organizers, who would report on what was happening; from the rave site
you couldn't see much at all except out into the Bay.  (There was this
constant rumbling in the distance, which occasionally grew louder and
softer.  It was pretty eerie and a bit apocalyptic, almost; although it
got put into perspective when I figured out that the rumbling was
coming from planes taking off and landing at the SF airport.  When the
police came to where we were, they naturally hassled us about the party
and told us to leave, which we had every intent of doing anyway.  They
said no one was there so we all filed out, equipment in hand, and found
all sorts of police cars, ambulances, and fire trucks parked near out
cars.  I only saw one of the injured people, this girl who had wandered
off and run into the gang types on their way out; she had blood all
down one side of her face and looked like some image out of a horror
film, but she seemed more shaken up than stirred ...  er, seriously
injured I mean.  (Ivan, on the other hand, apparently got seriously
mauled and was lying by the side of the road for awhile till the
paramedics came to help him.) Some of us hung around, and after awhile,
the cops of course started hassling us ...  ("What are you doing
here????"  "We're waiting for a friend ...  he went back to the site to
look for his backpack."  "Well, everyone leave except one person to
wait for him.")

MESS moved back to Chateau, the co-op at Berkeley where they hail from,
and Susie and I took off for Home ...  a little bit of a strange vibe
there, having to do mostly with the space (Cesar's Latin Palace, at
Mission and Army).  Normally it's (or I should say, it seemed to be ...
I've never been there before now) this kinda cheesy 70's disco place,
and there were lots of people coming there for this and finding this
rave music and getting confused and kinda just hanging there not really
knowing what to think -- it felt to me like there was this culture
clash there that was weirding things out.  But it was nice to see
some familiar faces there.

ben

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 01:52:45 1993
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From: red@net.bio.net (Ben Wing)
Message-Id: <9309270852.AA03493@net.bio.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Crash Worship et al.
Newsgroups: 
Organization: Straight On Till Morning
Cc: 
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Not directly rave related, but Crash Worship is going to be playing
this Friday night Oct 1st at the Haze Theater in SF.  (2730 16th St.)
Show starts at 9 but there are lots of opening bands so CW probably
won't come on till midnight or later.

If you haven't seen Crash Worship, well ...  they put on an amazing
spectacle, what can I say.  Heavy pounding incessant tribal drumming,
some guy screaming in the background, complete darkness except one
bright fluorescent flashing light, fog, people moshing all around you,
naked painted dancers with huge animal masks, torches, wineskins ...
Definitely not a "clean" experience :-) ...  I guess that sounds
scarier than it is; it's really a fun experience and you can always
move away from the action if it gets too intense.

ben

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 05:39:19 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 13:39:44 BST
Message-Id: <1733.9309271239@gamgee.harlequin.co.uk>
To: john@makesys.com
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: John Turman's message of Fri, 24 Sep 93 14:15:34 PDT <9309242115.AA17256@makesys. com>
Subject: Re: Outdoor Sound - Thanks!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


   May I add? What about Micro-Seiki, or Thorens, or Bang&Olufsen, or Linn,
   or how about Carver? There are a number of excellent turntables still in
   existence that are far superior in their specs, and durability to Technics.

   Why such prejudice towards such an inferior product?

In pure hi-fi terms, there's no doubt that a Linn LP12 would beat a
Technics SL1200 hands down.  But sound quality isn't the only issue
here.  I'm not familliar with micro-seiki or carver, but the other
turntables you mention would be completely unsuitable for for DJ use.
You're not just playing records... you're mixing them...

So, for a start, you need high torque, so you can stop the record
without slowing down the platter (you have a slipmat between the
record and the platter which is designed to allow you do do this.)

This pretty much rules out belt drive decks, so anything in the
Linn/Thorens school of design will be useless.

You need a good +/-8% pitch control.... that rules out many hi-fi
decks.

A suspended sub-chassis design probably wouldn't be suitable....
be too easy to jog the armboard...

What else...?  Let me see... a strobe might be nice, though not
essential.  That's out of fashion in minimalist hi-fi designs.  How
about a cueing light.... DJ's often have to work in the dark.... i've
yet to see a hifi design that has one....  Oh, most of the desks you
mention will probably never have been tried in some of the harsh
environments that Technics get used....  being knocked and jogged and
bumped around, both in transport, and in use....

There must be a dozen other little points that i've missed.... 

The decks you mention were designed to sound good, with no
compromises.  1200's are designed to sound good, but to do a lot more
besides....


	roy

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 05:41:08 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 13:41:59 BST
Message-Id: <1746.9309271241@gamgee.harlequin.co.uk>
To: john@makesys.com
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: John Turman's message of Fri, 24 Sep 93 14:15:34 PDT <9309242115.AA17256@makesys. com>
Subject: Re: Outdoor Sound - Thanks!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


   Why such prejudice towards such an inferior product?

I should add that there are a lot of other DJ decks out there.  Almost
all of them are low cost Technics imitations, and they are without
exception inferior products.  

People use Technics because it's the best....  No serious DJ would
even consider using anthing else...

	roy

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 07:16:28 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309271416.AA04377@netcom5.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Shoes
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 7:16:40 PDT
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Forwarded message:
> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 00:31:53 PDT
> From: andy@wco.ftp.com  (Andy Nourse)
> 
>     Seriously, does anybody know of any shoes that won't make my feet
>     complain horribly (and usually blister) when danced in for as
>     long as a good rave lasts?
> 
> 

  Andy -

 I asked this question last year , and got a bunch of answers ,that 
I still have somewhere on disk. I'll mail the file of replies to you 
later.


 I found that using thick hiking socks w/ my original shoes worked out
the best for me - also cheaper.

				Larry Ching/larryc@netcom.com

-- 

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 07:54:17 1993
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From: Max Enrique Sequeira Garza <al160184@academ01.mty.itesm.mx>
Message-Id: <199309271452.AA49221@academ01.mty.itesm.mx>
Organization: ITESM Campus Monterrey, Mexico.
Subject: Re: Contest, sorry butts stay home!
To: andy@wco.ftp.com (Andy Nourse)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 08:52:57 -0600 (CST)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309270731.AA26434@wco.ftp.com> from "Andy Nourse" at Sep 27, 93 00:31:53 am
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>
>     Seriously, does anybody know of any shoes that won't make my feet
>     complain horribly (and usually blister) when danced in for as
>     long as a good rave lasts?
>
>
        Well, back in april i was there in SF and discovered what an incredible
experience is to rave with your Birkenstocks... what can i say... it's like
dancing on little fluffy clouds!

        MAX

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 08:04:42 1993
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 08:05:09 -0700
Message-Id: <9309271505.AA27056@netcom.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Weekend reports?  What up?!?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno

I would like to hear some reports about:

Did anyone go to Wicked last weekend?  report pleeze :)
Did anyone go to Awakening this weekend?  report pleeze :)
How about HOME?  Did it go off?  you know how this line ends :)

Peace,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 09:44:14 1993
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 12:44:02 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309271644.AA08210@pilot.njin.net>
To: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Shoes
In-Reply-To: <9309271416.AA04377@netcom5.netcom.com>
References: <9309271416.AA04377@netcom5.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Get a good pair of tennies. They're made for people to be jumping and
moving about in. Get something light. Dr. Martens are the fashionable
thing to wear, but your feet'll be much happier after a night in
Reeboks.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 09:56:43 1993
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 09:57:06 -0700
From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309271657.AA05776@netcom4.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Weekend report
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Weekend rave report
===================

  I am VERY VERY sorry to hear about what happened at MESS at Candlestick
park.    Radion,  my friend wanted me to take him there,   but I went to
HOME instead,  which I really think was totally awsome.    And best of all
they had fans at the dance floor,  dispite the no ins and outs,  probably
imposed by the owners,   it was really smoke free,  as long as smokers 
didn't stand behind the fans.    The music was out of this world and
I was in such a wonderful trancey mode that I turned into a dance machine
and couldn't keep off the dance floor.

  Unfortunately,  they had to clear everyone out by 6 am,  but I was able
to find all my freinds and we chilled out till Boogie Buffet opened up the
sunlight area.    At the same time,  the Folsom Stree fair was going on
down the street,  and after they set up the sound system,  some DJ's from
England did the most awsome hard-core sets I have ever heard using a
sampler synth in clown suits.   WOW!!   What a wonderful dance experience
it was.   Naturally,  I was one of the only dudes out there dancing to
the fast 160 PBM stuff.  

  Towards the end,  they smashed up the Techniques 1200 turntables on
the stage as an act,  then threw out copies of their albums to the crowd.

  Anyway,  hats off to Ethan for putting on a most sucessful rave,   it
was a very good venue dispite the early shut-down,  the scene was totally
wonderful and pleasant.   I can only hope that Ethan can pull off yet another
one soon.   

  I also met a dude at Boogie in the morning that said that Awaken wasn't
really that good,  and they had to turn down the sound several times,  as
it was held in an armory (Don't recall the city,  but it was in Central
valley).   

Cheers
CC

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 10:06:35 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: root@Gregor.Mosheh.Net (Gregor Mosheh, Administrator)
X-Sender: root@Gregor.Mosheh.Net (Unverified)
Subject: HOME
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Wow. Ethan really kicked ass on that one. Home is (thus far) the most
produced event I've gone to, and it just blew my mind away.

The graphics were great, very beautiful and entrancing stuff. The sound
system was fantastic, and very loud. The location was cool once you got
inside, but the security people weren't very nice, and the outside was
actually hostile towards some friends and I.

DRC and Markie played the weirdest acid trance stuff I've ever heard, stuff
I really got into. I dunno who else was up in what order, but all of them
were just amazing.

I heard that Ethan lost money on Home because not enough people showed up.
Too bad. I pity everyone who stayed home or went somewhere else.


                 hazrat Gregor Mosheh
    4301-B Ashland Terrace Davis, CA 95616  (916) 757-7319                 
     
   gmosheh@nyx.cs.du.edu      mosheh@cybernet.cse.fau.edu
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From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 10:17:44 1993
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From: Randy Tinkerman <rmt@well.sf.ca.us>
To: ccat@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  ORB!
Message-Id: <93Sep27.101659pdt.14086-1@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Mon, 27 Sep 1993 10:16:55 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Orb to play @ Warfield.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 10:40:45 1993
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From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9309271741.AA24204@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: shoes
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sean says:

>Get a good pair of tennies. They're made for people to be jumping and
>moving about in. Get something light. Dr. Martens are the fashionable
>thing to wear, but your feet'll be much happier after a night in
>Reeboks.

I wear New Balance running shoes.   They are light,  adequately cushioned
for impact (Which I CANNOT be subjected to),   and comfortable.

Unfortunately,  they are expensive,  but if you shop around,  you could pick
up a pair for under $50.

CC

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 10:51:02 1993
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 10:49:05 PDT
From: Jon Drukman <jdrukman@us.oracle.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: John Draper's message of Mon, 27 Sep 93 10:41:09 -0700 <9309271741.AA24204@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: shoes
Reply-To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

plus ca change, eh wot?

we've already had the Shoe Discussion, so all interest parties should
go check out the archives.

FWIW, i dance in both doc martens and converse hi-tops (NO, not at the
same time), and i like the doc martens better.

Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 10:55:34 1993
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From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309271755.AA11854@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Home!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

What a party! HOME went really well, and I had a blast.  We took a
couple of first-timers there, and they had a *great* time.  They'd
never been exposed to the scene or the music before, and they loved
it. Danced their butts off :). Have to go to the butt shop and get new
ones :).

The Bad - The only bad thing I can say about Home is that the security
presence was excessive. They were circulating among the people,
constantly checking the bathrooms, etc., obviously looking for drugs.
No doubt this is Caesar's policy and not the promoters. I guess
there's no point in telling him, but the good officers are just
wasting their energy and his money.

With that out of the way...

DJs - It was good acid trance most of the night.  I got there in the
middle of Darcy's set. She wasn't mixing as well as usual, but it was
still a great Darcy vibe. Then Jon Williams came on. I've never heard
him spin before. Holy shit! Sorry guys, I've got a new favorite DJ now
:). He makes it look soooo easy, too. I got to hear a lot of new
stuff.  Simon was next, with Markie finishing up with a really (as
Fred put it) "mental" trance set. It was a good night to just dance
dance dance. I did my share of speaker worshiping and had a great time
:).

Visuals - *Really* groovy visuals. Some of the best I've ever seen.
There were two screens with color-cycled acidwarp/movies/fractal
images. A huge crowd level screen with slides and bubbly stuff, and
another huge spinning projection at crowd level. I love these sort of
visuals; very colorful and trippy, and close to the crowd. A laser
would have been good too.

Sound - Perfect. Whoever set up the sound should give lessons. A 4
corners system with just the right amount of loud. The bass was really
punchy and the highs came through loud and clear without being
distorted or excessive. A perfect balance. The stereo imaging was
great, and the room was full of good sweet spots where stereo sound
just surrounded you..  Listening to this system is not unlike
listening to my MDR-V6 headphones cranked way up with a bass bin
nearby to punch me good. Total tranceout city. The songs never sounded
better.

The Vibe - I thought it was great. Most of the people were dancing and
having a great time. It had a little bit of a weird edge to it
sometimes because some people were just hanging around like they'd
never seen a rave before.  My idea is, when I see some people sitting
around like they don't know what to do, I just flow with it and get
out there and have fun. Lead by example. Spread your good vibe around
:).  A lot of regulars were there, whom I really enjoyed being with.

Misc Stuff - Free water. Free fruit. No confiscations. A good welcome
at the door (not just for me, I hung around a bit and everyone was
getting a good treatment). Coat check $1. Lots of good chill space.
Good ventilation. Fans.

Ethan, you are a walking talking good vibe. Congradulations (to you
and the Tilt-a-Whirl guy whose name I can never remember) on a great
party :).

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 10:55:43 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9309271756.AA18489@netcom6.netcom.com>
Subject: Re:  ORB!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 10:56:09 PDT
In-Reply-To: <93Sep27.101659pdt.14086-1@well.sf.ca.us>; from "Randy Tinkerman" at Sep 27, 93 10:16 am
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

My mailer says that Randy Tinkerman said:
> 
> Orb to play @ Warfield.
> 
When? I've heard Thursday the 14th. Any confirmation?
-- 
Bryce Ryan -- AMBIANCE -- brycer@netcom.com-------------------
Sound surrounds you like Liquid Air ------- Every Month ------
415-487-8497 -- Audio by Sound Vision -- Flyer by Dave Scruton

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 11:18:55 1993
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 11:19:06 -0700
From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309271819.AA21285@koko.csustan.edu>
To: mmetz@soda.berkeley.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  sky high club
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I went there to a after Womad rave party last sunday and there was hardly anyone there because of the Womad after parties everywhere; anyhow, the music and the scenery was excellent. I recomend it for sunday nights. 

Were you there that night Allen????

Hoss

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 11:29:40 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
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To: ccat@netcom.com, rmt@well.sf.ca.us, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  ORB!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

when ??

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 12:07:13 1993
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From: nrg@netcom.com (Ethan I. Miller)
Message-Id: <9309271907.AA23078@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Home Review
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 12:07:39 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Greetings friends...

First off, my very deepest respect, sympathy and wishes for healing to MESS
and all involved in Saturday nights unfortunate Candlestick attack.
Security is really a bitch, more on this follows....

Many, many thanks to everyone that came out for Home; it was IMHO a
resounding success. I had a wonderful time and think everyone else did too.
We ended up with just under 500 paid, and, as usual, more guests than
anticipated or desired; all in all my partner Mark and I lost $809 each... 
18+ spaces that will go all night in SF are damn expensive  :(

But it was never about money anyway, so on to the important stuff...

Positives:
Vibe: Really great energy all night; dancing people with big smiles, lots
of hugs, nothing beats dancing with friends and family. My wife actually
had a great time at this party; very unusual event. Maybe she'll get out more
often now :)

Music: Killer music all night long! Jordan was excellent and is a really
nice guy to boot; lots of heart. he does fairly large parties in fresno;
I'm gonna try and make his next one. Galen was great as well; definitely
some up and coming talent well represented here. DRC was fantastic; harder
than your usual sf rave goer is used to lots of trance and an occasional
piece of techno thrown in as well, very funky an danceable; I can't tell
you how many people asked me who she was. Jon Williams was incredible: high
energy progressive house with lots of uplifting vocal and keboard riffs;
really got the floor moving; people jumping up and down, yelling screaming
etc. really a hoot. Simon treated us to a feast form his all new double
crate of records. By his own admission he's tired of disco, funk, etc. and
is moving in a harder, trancier direction. Truly mindbending. Markie
wrapped it up for us and was also fantastic. Bass therapy at 5:30 am is
just a great experience. Finished up with a killer track which must be
called *Joy* that left everybody clapping and wishing for more. Really
looking forward to hearing him at Connection Earth this sunday  :)

Sound:
Okay, I'm gonna sound conceited here, but if I'm wrong, I couldn't tell it
from anyone I spoke to there... Sound was amazing; loud as shit but crystal
clear with *no distortion* no ringing ears, nothing, just power! Better
sound than Basics, Vision, Groove Kitchen, any party I've been to
recently... We used my system for monitors and JK provided the rest: six
stacks of the Community VBS 415 /RS 880 combination. 24,000 watts total :)

Visuals:
Synergy did a great job on two screens right over the dance floor.
Left/right mirrored computer/video psychosis all night. Lots of
compliments on their work. Howard from Liquid Sircus Delight also did
agreat job on one and occasionally two screens. He really needs a big
screen like at the first Come Unity to do him justice. But his liquid,
mineral, radial treats were really nice. Towards the end, he started
projecting onto the dance floor which was this neat shower of twirling
shifting light, almost like beams of pre dawn sunlight anticipating the
coming day...

Water:
lots of it and free :)


negatives:
Well I live in the Mission district and quite honestly, aside from having
great burritos, I can do without the local culture. Alcohol just figures
way to prominently in the Mission's definition of how to have fun. Resident
gangs etc. force Cesars Latin palace and by turn us to Take security rather
seriuosly. This resulted in up front security that frisked everyone fully
and weren't the most friendly at times. They did however keep out twenty
gang members in colors that showed up, and thank goddess, there was no
violence during the night. My apologies to anyone that they offended; they
came with the space; very little i could do about it except repeatedly ask
them to be as pleasant as possible.

Luckily, most of the drunk locals seemed to pass out in the corners and the
vibe didn't take too much of a hit from them...It really is a good space,
too bad about the neighborhood...

What's next?
Well, I'm viewing this as a great start to something that will keep getting
better. I have to break even on the next one though, or I'm going to have a
hard time selling my wife on the concept. Bottom line is: we just can't
afford to lose the money  :( 

so our next party is going to be a little less of a big production and try
and focus on the basics: music, sound, dance, vibe. We're looking at the
weekend of October 23 for a smaller party in a non-mission SF, 18+ space.
We'd like to feature two members of UVC: Jon D and Jeff Taylor (don't worry
Jon I'll mail you about this) and two visiting members of the UK's DIY sound
system, plus a special guest or two  :)

One again, thanks for the support; I had a fucking great time!
love ya
ethan and mark
-- 


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 12:17:03 1993
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From: Mark Metz / Future Forum <mmetz@soda.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <9309271916.AA16987@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject: sky hi no more
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 12:16:55 -0700 (PDT)
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ski hi club failed not enough interest
ill bring mark to the park on oct 3rd
salutations
allen@ameba

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 12:20:04 1993
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From: noah@Cadence.COM (Noah Ruiz)
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To: ccat@netcom.com, rmt@well.sf.ca.us, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  ORB!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

From SFRaves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU Mon Sep 27 10:57:53 1993
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From: Randy Tinkerman <rmt@well.sf.ca.us>
To: ccat@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  ORB!
Message-Id: <93Sep27.101659pdt.14086-1@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Mon, 27 Sep 1993 10:16:55 -0700
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Status: R

Orb to play @ Warfield.

****When?



Noah Ruiz
noah@cadence.com
"True friendship comes when silence
 between two people is comfortable".



From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 12:45:27 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9309271945.AA11544@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Home!
Cc: jlf3@attmail.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Sean reports:
>Then Jon Williams came on. I've never heard
> him spin before. Holy shit! 

He really blew us away.  He set was the peak of the evening for us.
 
> Visuals - *Really* groovy visuals. Some of the best I've ever seen.

Synergy rules!  
 
> Sound - Perfect. Whoever set up the sound should give lessons. 

I'd have to say that it was the best sound system I've experienced in
recent memory.  The complete lack of distortion allowed the volume to
be cranked without pain, completely taking over my body & mind.  At one
pojnt Simon played some trancy religious-sounding stuff that made
me feel like I was floating in space.  
 
Ethan and company did a fantastic great job putting together this party.
It's too bad more people didn't come out for it.  Like 16th & Harrison, 
Ceasar's doesn't have a very good reputation for house parties.  Perhaps a 
lot of people just weren't willing to risk $15 for an unknown production 
at an iffy location.  Too bad.  But Ethan, if you're reading this, don't 
be discouraged.  It might take some time to build a following.  Word will 
get around that Home rocks.
  
> The Bad - The only bad thing I can say about Home is that the security
> presence was excessive. They were circulating among the people,
> constantly checking the bathrooms, etc., obviously looking for drugs.

I know someone who got thrown out that night for attempting to eat a small
piece of paper.  Actually, he succeeded in eating it, but only after
wrestling with the security goon over it who then became so enraged that
he pinched my friend's jaw open and tried to retrieve the paper from his
mouth with his hand.  Is that sick, or what?  After being thrown out, my
friend tried to salvage his evening by visiting the MESS party and ended
up in the middle of the gang violence that ensued there.  Nice trip :-(

But anyway, we know that Home had no say in the security situation, so
I just want to end this post on a positive note: Ethan & Mark, thanks;
you guys really put your heart into it, and it showed.  The free water,
good air circulation, great DJs, incredible sound & visuals - it was
better than any *home* I've been in, more like raver heaven!

- leg of eel


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 13:17:10 1993
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From: jamiel@sybase.com (Jamie 'Bobo' Lawrence)
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Subject: Re: Home!
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Had to add in words of encouragement to ethan as well- Home was awesome. I
left early- around 3am or so (sleep is becoming a very scarce thing for
me), but still think it was worth the money. Darcy (D'arcy? DRC? hm...) was
incredible, and it was even cooler to meet/hang out with her after her set.
Where is she spinning next?

It really sucks that Ethan and Mark lost so much on it. Hopefully more
poeple will show at the next one...

jamie

jamiel@sybase.com
"Static- It's all just static"- Bryna Bank


From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 13:30:14 1993
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 13:27:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Arthur Chandler <arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: Re: ORB!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <93Sep27.101659pdt.14086-1@well.sf.ca.us>
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  I just called the Warfield:
  "Orb?"  pause... "Never heard of 'em. Who are they?" said the woman who
answered the phone.  So.... where else might they be playing?

On Mon, 27 Sep 1993, Randy Tinkerman wrote:

> Orb to play @ Warfield.




From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 13:35:53 1993
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 13:28:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: see ya tommorrow
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i hope lots of people come out tommorrow for the committee meeting...it is
tommorrow (and as predicted by jean-paul from halinans office) it should
be about 11:30 when the topic  comes up...i am cutting class and hopefully
will get a chance to speak...wheeeee...i also i have heard that live 105
and the palladium are sponcering some type of party/encouraging folks to
come out to the meeting...i also told jean-paul that if it passes
committee he should workon getting the meeting later in the day when
people between the ages of 18-21 aren't working, going to school, or being
a slacker hehehehehheh....

i was at the mess party...and want to send my good vibes out to all those
people...

also i went to the bulletproof party...wowoowoowoowowowowow
all i can say is that you can't do better for visuals than a sunset with
san francisco in the background...wheeeee!!!!! i hope to suggest it to my
promoter friend in baltimore (another beautiful port) and see if they
would do a party there...because a boat is just about one of the only
places you don't need a sound permitt!!!!

...partyon...susie (:



From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 13:56:39 1993
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From: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown)
Message-Id: <9309272056.AA27268@slack>
Subject: Subterranean
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SF Raves)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 14:56:11 -0600 (MDT)
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We had planned to use the basement of the same building we used for "Sea
Monkey Love Castle".  The basement was huge, and we had blocked most of it off
when we used it before.  This time we thought we would use the whole thing and
go for the theme of "Subterranean".

After a lot of work, I managed to secure a date to fly in Garth and Carlos.  I
was especially excited to see and hear Carlos work after the buzz that has
been given him on SFRAVES, and Garth is immensely popular here, due to his CD
being played at parties with no DJ.

We finally splurged on color flyers, and were they ever gorgeous!  In
association with Dave Scruton, I spent a large part of two weeks designing
this thing.  Dave did the rendering of the front, which looked like an
underground cavern with stalagtites, stalagmites, and a glowing crystal with a
TASTE logo flying over it.  The back was done with Photoshop and a newly
purchased copy of "Kai's Power Tools" which does the funkiest psychedelic
effects around.  Even on my employer's (after hours) Mac Quadra 900, it
seemingly took FOREVER to get things right.  Even after I was satisfied with
both sides, John had to spend five hours getting the color corrected (at his
work) and the separations done.  Then he was able to swing a deal for 3000
cardstock copies for $500.  The color correction cost $300.  Expensive and
time consuming, but was it ever pleasurable to see people's faces explode when
they saw them.  Even when I went out to San Francisco with our friend Grant,
we got a big reaction handing them to people at a smallish rave we went to.
Nothing like this had even come close in Salt Lake City, but we raised the
standard again, and now everyone is at least getting their flyers litho'd.

Because we had 3000 flyers, we went a bit aboveground and distributed them in
record and clothing shops.  Along with the flyers, we had tickets printed up,
so we sold those in advance.  However, there wasn't much incentive to buy them
in advance, since the price would not change from $10.  Tickets did sell
gradually, and things were simplified in a major way when it came time to take
them at the door.  Very little door sales were done at all, because we
insisted on having people buy their tickets at the map point.

The basement of the building ended up not being available, so we scrambled for
another site.  We looked at roller rinks, and a couple of unsuitable
warehouses.  In the end, we decided to use the same "cat box" warehouse that
we had used for "Rites of Spring".  When we arrived to inspect the building in
advanced, we were happy to see that it contained roughly half the amount of
cardboard that it did before.  Since we were expecting around 800 people to
show up, we decided to expand the dancefloor into where the chill area was
before.  There was enough cardboard to make a large partitioning wall between
a reduced size chill area, bathrooms, and smart bar.

I ordered four eight foot weather balloons, and one sixteen foot weather
balloon.  We blew up two of the red eight foot size, and they looked great
hanging from the ceiling.  I started to fill the sixteen foot when John locked
himself out of the warehouse, I didn't want the barely inflated balloon to
touch the floor where it could collect dirt, so I ran with it to the door.  It
snagged on suspended box pallette and tore a hole in it.  John patched it with
duct tape and I continued to fill it up.  When it got to be about ten feet in
size, it exploded.  Our beautiful $70 weather balloon was a useless pile of
latex.  I felt like a kid who's first balloon just got popped.

Most of the setup was done again by John and myself.  Lots of people always
want to help and we're glad to oblige, but when it comes down to it, they very
rarely show up for extended periods.  We did have a lot of help from Grant of
course, and Todd who was a manager for a local clothing store, but that was
about it.

I was approached by a friend who wanted to do an ambient room.  This was when
I thought we had the basement, so I told him it would be great if he could do
so.  He requested someone to spell him, so I found another guy who is
enthusiastic about the ambient music I play.  When I had to tell them that I
couldn't use them after all, it was bitching and whining to hell and back.
Both of these guys had never spun before and all of a sudden they felt like
they were doing me a favor.  The second guy asked if he could close the rave
instead and I just had to laugh at him.  The lesson learned here is that you
shouldn't tell people they can do something until you are absolutely sure you
can accomodate them.  I ended up giving them free tickets and the second guy
was a big help at one point in getting things setup.

Carlos called me the night before to tell me how psyched he was to be doing
the show.  He said he was getting lots of rest on Friday so he could give us
the best possible performance that he could do.  Needless to say, his energy
over the phone was invigorating.  I picked Carlos and Garth up from the
airport the evening before, and Carlos insisted on going to Sizzler.  A point
that many people here couldn't understand, but I didn't mind.  I bought them
both dinner and they were very appreciative.  We talked about different DJs,
music, and different bands.  I started to realize that I had recruited the
thickest accents in San Francisco and going from Carlos to Garth to Carlos to
Garth manage to cause a lot of confusion in the conversation.  More than once
I had no clue what they were trying to say to me.

When we returned to the warehouse, Carlos took a look at my pristine tables
and said, "Wow! New needles!"  I told them that they were about six months old
and he laughed and said, "You should see my needles."  There was some previous
debate before they arrived over how high the table should be.  We had to find
a happy medium for the shorter Carlos, and the taller Garth and myself.
Luckily our "guess" was just about right.  Aside from moving the monitors
around, things were very comfy for everyone involved, which relieved me in a
big way after having that junk turntable that Moonpup had problems with.

The door opened at about 11:20, 20 minutes late.  Reid, our video guy had
worked very hard at preparing animations and video to use for this one.  I had
spent some time getting 72 new slides made, but alas, I didn't make it back to
the photo shop in time to pick them up.  I hadn't wanted things to come down
to the wire like this, but I had spent a leisure hour at the Sizzler stuffing
my face, which was a drastic change from the past.  Usually I have a loaf of
french bread underneath the table to feed me from not eating all day.

I kicked things off with a unspectacular set, realizing I was going to be
dwarfed by the things to come.  There was a small panic when I realized the
second CD wasn't playing, and I frantically watched the time count down on the
first one before I discovered that the "TAPE" button had been pressed on the
NuMark that I had rented on Carlos' request.  I played until 12:30, when he
took the controls.

People stood near the tables slackjawed while he spun up a storm.  I have
*never* seen anything like it.  The amazing amount of energy that flows from
Carlos into the crowd is just spectacular.  When he mixed in Led Zepplin and
another classic rock song that just GROOVED (I can't remember the name),
things just exploded.  What was great is that he was having such a good time
doing it.  Salt Lake was in awe over his skill and ability.

Garth took over two hours later and had things pumping until *blam*.  The
power went out.  This happened FOUR times later, and we finally isolated it to
monitors being cranked too loud.  I pulled one of the monitor speakers off and
even though I was fairly sure that was it, all we had running at that point
was the projection TV and the computers.  All the disco lights, slide
projectors, and the laser were shut off permanently.  What was great about
Garth was his complete calm over the situation.  Even though the power kept
dropping out in mid set, he kept the crowd happy and had his thumb on the
situation.  Things would start up immediately when the power came back on and
it was like it never happened.  By the third blackout, people had almost begun
to expect them, as they started to clap in rhythm before things would kick in
again.  Many cheers were heard once they did.

I got a chance to talk with Carlos while Garth was playing and he was so
charged.  "You MUST bring me back here, I LOVE this place!"  He had met so
many people and picked up such a good vibe that he had really fallen in love
with Salt Lake City.  He was telling me that there was so much more energy at
4:00 AM than he had seen in San Francisco recently.

When I took over at 5:20 from Garth, there were still about a hundred people
left.  Not surprising since Garth had laid down an excellent groove, and it
was hard to quit from that.  I put down my *real* set, playing things that I
had been holding on to for a while, just waiting for the right moment.  It
went over very well, and I was able to keep the crowd there.  When I kicked
into trance at a quarter to six, I was deeply involved in what I was doing
when I noticed what was going on with the video.  Reid had taken a break and
thrown in a film called "Chronos".  Utterly gorgeous images of Egyptian
temples, classical Greek sculpture, and life on this planet.  About thirty
people had gathered around on the floor in front of the fifty foot image and
just watched in silence.  The other half just flowed and moved to the sound.
I left the mixer so I could go up to where they were sitting and I was
surprised to find John sitting there with his eyes wide open.  One of those
precious moments I will not forget.

After I returned and mixed for another fifteen minutes, I turned around to
find a grinning Carlos behind me.  I pointed at the mixer and he nodded
enthusiastically.  I let him take the controls to clear things out.  Garth
showed up as he was doing that and I asked him if he wanted to play at all.
He said he was happy in letting Carlos finish it out.  He asked how long he
should go, and I said another five minutes.  Then he talked to Carlos and
asked for fifteen.  That would have made things stop at 6:30.  I said sure,
but when we got to that point, it wasn't enough.  Garth asked for him to play
for ten more minutes and I readily agreed.  Then I ran into John who said the
sun was almost up and we should probably take things to 7:00.  Garth said,
"Good show!" and we relayed this to Carlos who laughed over it.

For the first time that night, I really saw Garth moving around to the music.
He certainly wasn't as outgoing as Carlos, but he was just as enthusiastic
about our work.  They both were in awe of Reid's video work, which was
astoundingly beautiful.  We ended up paying Reid $300 instead of the $200
originally agreed on.

When things ended at 7:00, John got up on a box and said thanks and thanks to
Garth and Carlos, which got a loud round of unexpected applause from the
remaining fifty people there.

I took them back to my place where they were determined to stay awake until
their flight left at 11:00.  I was not in the same state and crashed
immediately even though Garth was playing a tape on the stereo.  When they
woke me an hour later, they were concerned about their records being in the
sun in the car, and wanted to go to the airport now so I wouldn't have to
worry about them an hour later.  In my groggy state, I was glad to oblige and
took them there.  Carlos emphasized about how he wanted to come back and Garth
thanked me for a good party.  I said goodbye and that was that.

At 2:30 I returned to the warehouse to find John had swept most of it, and
removed the porto-potties from the inside.  Grant was busily coiling cables
and taking down equipment.  We stayed until about 10:00 cleaning up and
hauling equipment out.  This included a break to setup one of the televisions
to watch the premier of Star Trek.

When all the cash was counted, the results turned out to be rather dismal.
Despite the extensive flyering we had done, the crowd had not been any larger
than what we would have had if we had just sent photocopied flyers to the
mailing list.  I think the "curiosity seekers" have left the raves, and all
that is left is about 500 hardcore dancers.  This is good for the scene, but
not good for bigger and better promotions.  When we had spent in excess of
$4000 for putting this on, it ended up with about $240 each for John, myself,
and Todd from the clothing store who had helped sponsor us.  I found out later
that the sound had not been accounted for, and so $190 came out of John's and
my share.  That left us with $330, which all went towards the Meat Beat
Manifesto debt (yes, we still have about $500 left to pay).  Plans for Orb,
and Orbital/Aphex-Twin/Moby have been abandoned.  Plans for scaling back how
often we do these things have been pushed aside as well.  We are doing a
concert with Crash Worship on the 16th of October, and thankfully, that is
relatively cheap to do in comparison.

The small net gain coupled with the fact that someone stole my "Ecco The
Dolphin" cartridge from the Sega videogame that we had setup, along with
someone ripping off my step-mother's three folding tables from outside the
warehouse the next morning (who would be so desperate?), along with a possibly
blown 18" woofer, put a very dark cloud over what was an excellent vibe.  The
future holds scaled back raves for us, and an effort to quit what we are
doing.  The possible sidetrack into concerts looks like a dead end as well.
Although I think we as Taste are the one best teams in the country, and
possibly the planet, a fact that is constantly confirmed by outsiders, I can't
see how much longer I can go on doing something that drains me physically and
financially.  Very frustrating considering the fact that we would be doing
very well in a larger town, but good considering the fact that the audience
here is the only reason that keeps me doing them anyway.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 14:05:35 1993
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From: Randy Tinkerman <rmt@well.sf.ca.us>
To: arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: ORB!
Message-Id: <93Sep27.140513pdt.14102-2@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Mon, 27 Sep 1993 14:05:07 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Orb.  10/15.  Warfield.  w/ Buck, Markie, others.  Peace

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 14:12:16 1993
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From: Randy Tinkerman <rmt@well.sf.ca.us>
To: magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  see ya tommorrow
Message-Id: <93Sep27.141144pdt.14111-1@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Mon, 27 Sep 1993 14:11:35 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

of course, when the planar vector of the dance floor changes with every
swell, the advantages of raving on a boat are most apparent....specially kif
the roof beams are too high to reach for 1-armed stability.

suggest Pepper tonite kids.  stable floor, unstable djs.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 15:09:50 1993
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From: raff@olivea.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Raffaele Sena)
Message-Id: <9309272209.AA01754@olivea.ATC.Olivetti.Com>
Subject: Good-bye (soon)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 15:09:42 PDT
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Hi,
	I'm goind back to Italy after (other) six wonderfull months around
	here. 

	I was thinking to go out for dinner on Thursday, before my last YSH
	(sigh, sob !!!!) and say goodbye to all the people I met in this
	period.

	The idea is to go to a restaurant (Thai or something like that) if
	we are a relatively small group. Or to go in a place like Azteca,
	if we are a bigger group.

	Can you please send me a mail if you like to come and then we can
	decide the place, depending on the people ?

So, see you on Thursday (and I hope to see you soon back here :-)

Ciao,
	Raffaele

------------------------------------------------------------
Raffaele Sena - Olivetti ATC - Cupertino, CA
		Phone: +1-408-366-3542
		Fax:   +1-408-366-3606
		E-Mail: raff@atc.olivetti.com

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 15:24:20 1993
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From: Harry Duran <hduran@UMDNJ.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shoes
To: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1993 18:20:42 -0500 (EDT)
Cc: larryc@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309271644.AA08210@pilot.njin.net> from "Sean Casey" at Sep 27, 93 12:44:02 pm
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> 
> Get a good pair of tennies. They're made for people to be jumping and
> moving about in. Get something light. Dr. Martens are the fashionable
> thing to wear, but your feet'll be much happier after a night in
> Reeboks.
> 
> Sean
> 
I'm sure the Reeboks work just great however, i swear by my Dr. Martens,
 11 eyelet low calf boots with thick  hiking socks or a plush absorbent sock,
second runner up are my nike hikers but i prefer these for out door and for
 hiking of course
On the dance floor the Nike  sole gives too much floor purchase while the
Docs are supple enough to keep me sailing at a fast BPM.
The Docs are heavy but the weight can be used to generate momentum for 
high velocity spins dives bobs and weaves heh heh :)
I ignore fashionable ness( being purely practicality minded) so what-evah!! 

Thats my $.02 for what its worth

WazzupDoQ?



From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 15:52:56 1993
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From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309272252.AA23497@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: shoes
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Uh oh. Now I've insulted people's shoes.

"Jehovah! Jehovah!"

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 16:24:34 1993
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From: phred@well.sf.ca.us (Fred Heutte)
Date: 	Mon, 27 Sep 1993 16:23:29 -0700
In-Reply-To: nrg@netcom.com (Ethan I. Miller)
       "Home Review" (Sep 27, 12:07pm)
References: <9309271907.AA23078@netcom3.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: Home Review
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MAJOR PROPS to Ethan and the krewe for a great party at HOME!

I had a thoroughly enjoyable time.  Only wish the sound had been cranked
up a little louder earlier in the evening -- my pal DRC would've tranced
everyone through the roof -- but perhaps it was just as well to bring it
up steadily.

OK, so here's the checklist:

1.  DJs.  We got 'em.  What a great lineup!  Strongest through and through
    I've seen for months.  I arrived at midnight so missed the earlier
    turns, but DRC was on-spot onna trancey tip (a little rough, I think
    these large events are new for her but she has a great selecter's view
    of things :).  I *finally* got to hear Jon Williams doing a great
    progressive/trance/happy house set similar to the combo he did with
    Phil Smart on their tape 'Kitchen Synch' which is my fave of '93 and
    I would highly recommend (I bought it at Housewares which doesn't
    seem to have copies at the moment, but Ameba has several -- get it
    while you can!).  Simon put through an incredibly powerful, driving
    sound and I can't wait to hear his new tape which just appeared in
    the stores this week.  And our good friend Markie, well what can I
    say except 'mental as everything' :)  During part of his set I sat
    next to the far wall by the stage and got that good South of Market
    bass reverberation thang :) :)

2.  Location.  Cesar's is really a nice place, good wood on the dance floor,
    clean setup, a nice upstairs chill area.  It seemed a bit bright with
    lots of little light strings all over the place (less would have
    highlighted the excellent light show), but really no matter.  

3.  Staff.  A bit on the obtrusive side, but not surprising, and really
    no worse than, say, the Townsend types.

4.  Patronage.  A pretty good mix of into-it types and confused locals.
    A few thuggish types hanging around at the margins trying to look
    tough but really swimming a little out of their element.  I saw a
    few familiar faces on the floor (including Vitamin B, lee, M and
    P-ter and others) and lots of unfamiliar but havin-a-great-time
    ones as well.  And even better, Ethan got to do some *serious*
    shakin' at his own party, which really indicates how well things
    were organized.

5.  Sound and lights.  Oh baby!!!  Props'n'a'half to both crews.  
    I almost had a chance to visit Community's place outside Philly a
    couple weeks ago, wish I'd been there to thank them kindly :)

6.  Extras.  Water, fruit, plenty'o'space . . . and the smiles from
    EVERY one of the DJs after their sets!

I was amazed at how much it costs to rent out these places.  It sure
is easy to lose money fast when that's half of your break-even budget.
And I hope that Ethan and his partners make it all back and then some,
because HOME has set the new standard for parties in San Francisco.

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 16:29:47 1993
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Date:        Mon, 27 Sep 93 17:30:02 MDT
From: Babylon <IHC1%UTEP.BITNET@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU>
To: <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: shoes
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hey Sean,

I use Doc's myself. . ...attached to construction stilts expandable from
three feetto five feet. I stay on the three foot extension. I must say
that, at times, I find greeting peopleto be a problem. I can also say
that walking above a smoke fog is lonely; but very trance-like in that
I see only a floor of smoke below me, and above exists a sky of light
with bouncing lasers dashing here and there. The best is when you find
yourself in the midst of data flashes and the projection of fractal
graphics and loony tune cartoons. I don't recommend the experience un-
less you wish to turn away from a positive vibe and alienate yourself
from your friends. Also, the stilts take time to move in and don't real-
ly work for outdoor events where the ground is bumpy. Oh well, that's
my greenback for ya.

bye,
victor
(babylon/xenon) at ihc1@utep.bitnet

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 16:36:11 1993
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Date:        Mon, 27 Sep 93 17:36:18 MDT
From: Babylon <IHC1%UTEP.BITNET@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU>
To: <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: reply to my orb inquiry
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Hello all,

It's Victor again writing to thank Bryce for the info on Warfield. I
want to thank you for keeping this list alive with your comments and
suggestions: I really appreciate this resource. If not for this list,
I'd be lost. El Paso, Texas really doesn't have a great following, so
info to current releases is not readily available. Thanks again every-
one, see you on vrave.

Dein,
Babylon
ihc1@utep.bitnet

From sfraves-owner  Mon Sep 27 19:46:17 1993
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Message-Id: <9309280245.AA21836@netcom.netcom.com>
To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Re: shoes
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>FWIW, i dance in both doc martens and converse hi-tops (NO, not at the
>same time), and i like the doc martens better.
>
>Jon Drukman                                         jdrukman%dlsun87@oracle.com
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence.


I like Docs myself as well.  Nice boune to 'em (I wear the lo-tops).  I
have not yet done the sneaker bit, but it does sound like a winner...hmmm
maybe at the next HOME, non?

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 01:08:07 1993
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From: Derek Yu <derek@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-Id: <199309280807.AA18364@lightning.berkeley.edu>
To: jdrukman%dlsun87@us.oracle.com, jsl@netcom.com
Subject: Re: shoes
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

my shoes of choice are Hi-Tec Sierra LItes Hiking boots..
they have the shock absorbtion and secure-fit of sneakers, plus the traction 
you might need in an outdoor event..  I cannot tell you how many times those
boots saved me in the sands of Boonie Doon or the grassy fields of SF... :)



-Derek..



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 02:09:44 1993
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From: vile@il.us.swissbank.com (Kurt Vile)
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Pumas.

Need I say more?

--Kurt

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 02:55:22 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Subject: orbital/aphex twin show
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


	i have heard this show will happen in la.
	supposedly the weekend of november eleventh.
	anyone in for a road trip, if they don't
	swing by the sf area?

calibn

caliban too


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 02:59:38 1993
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From: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Subject: sacramento
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


	this is late, but i will be stuck in sacto tomorrow for
	work and was hoping someone could tip me off to a good
	place to dance to techno or even, heaven forbid, a rave.
	anyway, mail me here, or better yet leave voxmail at
	408.521.8899, which is a free call from like five area 
	codes, maybe even from sacto.  help me make my tuesday
	night in sacramento a blast!  you can even call if you 
	just want to hang out.

caliban


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 05:42:15 1993
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To: Derek Yu <derek@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: shoes & October ugliness
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>my shoes of choice are Hi-Tec Sierra LItes Hiking boots..
>they have the shock absorbtion and secure-fit of sneakers, plus the traction 
>you might need in an outdoor event..  I cannot tell you how many times those
>boots saved me in the sands of Boonie Doon or the grassy fields of SF... :)
>
>
>
>-Derek..

Yeah, I did always wanto to know what in the hell do you dance with when on
the sand!  I have not gone to an FMM in soo long, I would probably go
digging out some heavy boots or something :).  But you say sneaks are the
bestfor sand, eh?


October Ugliness:

October will prove to be on ugly month (esp the end of the month).  I've
heard that there will be a, uh, Gathering on the 30th (Sat.), and of course
the next day you have the supreme ugliness of the Boat Party.  I will be
making all preperations for a two day blowout with a one-day recovery (i.e.
Monday off!).  There are lots of other things going on as well, but these
two events back to back mean more ugliness to the oz.

Peace,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 07:23:43 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 15:19:42 +0100 (BST)
From: Greg Eden <G.L.Eden@newcastle.ac.uk>
Reply-To: Greg Eden <G.L.Eden@newcastle.ac.uk>
Subject: Shoes and stuff
To: Andy Nourse <andy@wco.ftp.com>
Cc: Max Enrique Sequeira Garza <al160184@academ01.mty.itesm.mx>,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <199309271452.AA49221@academ01.mty.itesm.mx>
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On Mon, 27 Sep 1993, Max Enrique Sequeira Garza wrote:

> >
> >     Seriously, does anybody know of any shoes that won't make my feet
> >     complain horribly (and usually blister) when danced in for as
> >     long as a good rave lasts?
> >
> >
>         Well, back in april i was there in SF and discovered what an incredible
> experience is to rave with your Birkenstocks... what can i say... it's like
> dancing on little fluffy clouds!
> 
>         MAX

To solve a blister problem try wearing two pairs of socks (a thin pair,
then a thick (ie Nike) pair. It's a squash players tip.

As for shoe I reckon 70%+ ravers in Britain wear Nikes. (Including me at
moment). I'm sure we must account for a fair percentage of Nike UK's
income :)


greggy303

3030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303
303     Greg Eden, Physics Department          |     g.l.eden@ncl.ac.uk     303
303 Herschel Building, University of Newcastle |303 Forever. Long live Acid!303
3030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303030303 





From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 10:01:24 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 13:01:15 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309281701.AA21372@pilot.njin.net>
To: spaceman@cats.ucsc.edu (illuminated iconoclast)
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: sacramento
In-Reply-To: <9309280959.AA09578@si.ucsc.edu>
References: <9309280959.AA09578@si.ucsc.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

illuminated iconoclast writes:
 > 	this is late, but i will be stuck in sacto tomorrow for
 > 	work and was hoping someone could tip me off to a good
 > 	place to dance to techno or even, heaven forbid, a rave.
 > 	anyway, mail me here, or better yet leave voxmail at
 > 	408.521.8899, which is a free call from like five area 
 > 	codes, maybe even from sacto.  help me make my tuesday
 > 	night in sacramento a blast!  you can even call if you 
 > 	just want to hang out.

I'd like to know too. There's a place called "The Rage" off Arden way
that supposedly has Techno night on Tuesday. I went there once and
there was no vibe at all. The worst DJ I ever heard at a rave was 10
times better than the DJ there. He didn't beat mix much. The crowd,
though plentiful, was trying but just couldn't find a groove. People
just ended up drinking.

There's something that happens on Fridays (Ooga Booga?) that is
supposed to be pretty good, but I don't have info on it. I may try to
go this Friday.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 10:09:52 1993
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From: Louis.Dunne@Barra.COM (Louis A. Dunne)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 10:09:46 -0700
Personal-Name: Louis A. Dunne - VMS/UNIX Systems.
Organization: BARRA Inc., Berkeley, California.
Reply-Address: louis@barra.com
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Ride to FMR
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hi all,

	I'm posting this for Monica because her machine is on the
	blink (again!).  She needs a ride to the FMR for two people
	and promises to provide lot of good vibes to anyone who
	can help.  She lives at Army & Guerrero in SF, and her
	number is (415) 641-4703.

tks
Louis
P.S.	Sorry I missed everyone at HOME.  I got sort of busy Saturday
	night, see you all on Thursday as usual though. :)

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 10:37:11 1993
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From: ambient@netcom.com (Joe Rice)
Message-Id: <9309281737.AA29142@netcom5.netcom.com>
Subject: Orbital/Aphex Twin/Moby
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 10:37:38 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


>
>
>       i have heard this show will happen in la.
>       supposedly the weekend of november eleventh.
>       anyone in for a road trip, if they don't
>       swing by the sf area?
>
> calibn
 
Orbital, Aphex Twin, and Moby will be playing LA on Nov. 13, as part of Circa
'93.  E-mail circa@netcom.com for more info.
 
-joe-

-- 

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 10:49:30 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 09:37:55 PDT
From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309281638.AA08833@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        uunet!forsythe.stanford.edu!IHC1%UTEP.BITNET@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: shoes
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Are we gonna go through this shoe thing again!?  Well if we are, another vote
for docks.  Air cushion insoles. |-)

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 10:49:37 1993
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From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
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To: csc@pilot.njin.net, uunet!umdnj.edu!hduran@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Shoes
Cc: larryc@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 12:48:49 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: Ride to FMR (fwd)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 12:49:49 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


The FMR is on Wednesday night, not Thursday night, as I had guessed
on the calendar.

-Derek

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 o derek chung  o  oracle graphics  o  dhchung@us.oracle.com  o 415.506.6195 o
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 14:03:53 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 14:02:59 -0700
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309282102.AA02867@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@UCSD.EDU
Subject: Addition to Promotion..
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I've just gotten a bit more product back from one of my customers,so
I'm going to expand the Intellex sale a bit.In addition to the price cut
to $30.00 that I am giving until it runs out.I'll also sell 3 bottles for
$75.00.This is $30.00 savings from the regular price for three of
$105.00-_and_ 
a dollar a bottle below my _case_ lot price.The NLEA may make supplements
like pyroglutamic acid and DMAE unavailable,so this is the time to stock up!
Shipping is $6.00/first bottle, $1.00 each additional bottle, and if you
live in CA. please add $2.47 sales tax per bottle.No personal checks please.
(Money orders made out to Nutrient Cafe Wholesale are the preferred
method of payment.Or you can pick up in SF.)  Sorry to waste bandwidth for the
commercial posting. 

This is the same product that has gotten a lot of positive reviews from
the cybertech community.It was served at the ILM/Lucasfilm party at SIGGRAPH 93,
for example... At this price the per serving cost is only 30 cents!
This is for a product that gives you 3 times the amount of amino acids and
vitamins per serving as "Memory Fuel" etc.There's really no comparison.

The remainder wont last long at this price.If the legal situation with 
the NLEA changes,I have tentative financing now to bring out my new
product,but if it doesnt I wont and cant...So..stock up!

AND ALSO- PLEASE WRITE YOUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES AND TELL THEM THAT YOU
DONT WANT AMINO ACIDS AND HERBS TAKEN OFF THE MARKET!!  Thanks..
(sorry about the caps-lock!)
 Chris 
Nutrient Cafe,POB 170156,SF,CA 94117-0156

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 14:32:39 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 14:31:59 -0700
From: hogg@tapir.Caltech.EDU (David Hogg)
Message-Id: <9309282131.AA13350@karl.tapir.Caltech.EDU>
To: ccat@netcom.com
Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu
In-Reply-To: Chris Beaumont's message of Tue, 28 Sep 93 14:02:59 -0700 <9309282102.AA02867@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Addition to Promotion..
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

   I understand that it is a violation of internet rules to advertise
products for sale.  Please desist lest the internet become like the
television industry.

David W. Hogg
Theoretical Astrophysics 130-33		internet:  hogg@tapir.caltech.edu
California Institute of Technology	telephone: 818 395 6875
Pasadena CA 91125 USA			facsimile: 818 796 5675

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 15:11:43 1993
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Message-Id: <9309282209.AA29102@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 18:09 EDT
From: laura@usl.com
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Subject: CROSS POSTING to ne-raves
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Please do not attempt to cross post to ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu 
anymore ... the list appears to be dead, and has been dead for at
least a week.  The list administrator has been unreachable, too,
so I have no other information on what is going on.

Thanks,

Laura 

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 15:46:44 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 14:07:57 PDT
From: john@makesys.com (John Turman)
Message-Id: <9309282107.AA05624@makesys. com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Shoes? What shoes?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I've found that the best shoes to dance in aren't shoes at all but standard
issue US Army combat boots. Of course they need to be properly broken in but
hey, I love mine. Although I also have been known to rave on in my Nike Agasi
mid high tennies. I don't wear Docs mainly as an anti-fashion statement. After
all, isn't not being "cool" the way to be? In fashion as in automobiles I 
believe it's "Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way". I prefer to go my own way.

Bye,

John Turman
john@makesys.com

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 16:25:46 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 14:46:54 PDT
From: john@makesys.com (John Turman)
Message-Id: <9309282146.AA06107@makesys. com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: What about speaker-power amp combinations?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

OK. I stand corrected on the unsuitability of audiophile style turntables for
DJ use. I apologize to all for speaking out of turn. But actually I was truly
interested in the reasons why Technics were superior. Thanks to all who quickly
pointed out the folly in my suggestion of alternative turntables. BUT.

Now onto something which I do have a wee little bit of knowledge about.

What is your personal preference for power amplification and sound reinforcement
speaker combinations for rave useage? I'll bet this will draw almost as many
opinions as there are people in this group.

My personal preference is Crown PB1 or, if you can find any, Phase Linear A700
power amps coupled to Mr. Hank modified Altec A7 based, horn loaded PA cabinets
equipped with Electro-Voice bass drivers. For midrange, the Electro-Voice 600
series midrange horns, and for treble, JBL multi-cellular tweeter horns 
(I forget the model number).

Mr. Hank is a fellow down in North Miami Florida who makes the most impressive
sounding speaker enclosures I've ever heard. My band used to use a PA system
designed by him that kicked ass. It used Phase Linear active crossovers and
Phase Linear A700's. Clean and LOUD!

Anyway, I also like Klipsch La Scala's and the original Klipschorns too. They
are my second choice for speakers. But with them you need bunches of them to
soak up all the power of the amp racks. They're a little too efficient.

Oh well enough bandwidth wasted.

Bye.

John Turman
john@makesys.com

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 16:48:38 1993
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To: uunet!tapir.caltech.edu!hogg@uunet.UU.NET (David Hogg)
Cc: ccat@netcom.com, ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        socal-raves@ucsd.edu, gwh@lurnix.COM
Subject: Re: Addition to Promotion.. 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Sep 93 14:31:59 PDT."
             <9309282131.AA13350@karl.tapir.Caltech.EDU> 
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 15:53:08 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


There are no "internet rules" beyond "don't break the Internet".
The closest thing that comes that way is a prohibition against
chain email letters, which isn't actually network-wide policy but
every individual site seems to have accepted as local policy.

If someone is doing something of interest to the raving community,
be it smart drugs or organizing a rave or music, it is appropriate
for the list.

-george



From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 16:48:45 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 16:21:14 PDT
From: winston@lurnix.COM (Mark Guthrie)
Message-Id: <9309282321.AA09229@cassy.lurnix.com>
To: ccat@netcom.com, uunet!tapir.caltech.edu!hogg@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Addition to Promotion..
Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Thank you Mr. internet policeman, you saved us all from reppetitive movement
injuries from hitting the "d" key too much with our left middle fingers.
Is it a violation of rules or breach of ettiquette?  There's a difference.
I'm glad to have knowlege of "special" sales from Twitch, Nutrient Cafe,
or anyone else on the list who is giving special deals to list members.
I think the adds were tactful and rare enough to ignore if your not
interested.

-Mark

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 17:53:12 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 20:53:07 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309290053.AA07946@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Addition to Promotion..
In-Reply-To: <9309282131.AA13350@karl.tapir.Caltech.EDU>
References: <9309282102.AA02867@netcom2.netcom.com>
	<9309282131.AA13350@karl.tapir.Caltech.EDU>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


There aren't any Internet rules per-se, except perhaps don't mess up
other people's routing, don't use someone else's IP (i.e. register
with the NIC), etc. The Internet is a big mishmash conglomeration of
nets (you are in a maze of twisty networks, all different). They
usually have their own rules.  The NSF net, for example, is supposed
to be noncommercial and mission-specific, but it's only enforced for
severe cases of abuse. And even then there's really nothing to be done
if something comes from a net where it is permitted. Milnet
is obviously only for military traffic. When everyone can IP from
their ISDN hookup, there may be few rules at all, except don't screw
up the net. (Perhaps by then, Congress will start making laws about
junk email, etc.)

I don't mind people advertising rave (or even non-rave) related stuff
on here unless they get repetitive about it. I think it helps out the
community as people can often get things for far less than in stores
(like the crazy Eddie Twitch sale (yay!)).

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 18:21:26 1993
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To: hogg@tapir.caltech.edu (David Hogg), ccat@netcom.com
Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Subject: Internet Rules?? (was Re: Addition to Promotion.. )
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Sep 93 14:31:59 PDT."
             <9309282131.AA13350@karl.tapir.Caltech.EDU> 
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 18:21:40 -0700
From: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

From: hogg@tapir.caltech.edu (David Hogg)
>    I understand that it is a violation of internet rules to advertise
> products for sale.  Please desist lest the internet become like the
> television industry.

Wrong!

This may have been the case a few years ago, but it isn't now. There are
plenty of companies that are doing business over the internet, or have
plans to do business over the internet. (e.g. my present employer, EIT).
"Business" use of the internet also includes advertising products for sale.

Take a look at the sorts of projects that are exciting our VP Al Gore
nowadays, and they're all basically for "doing business over the internet".
Take for example our (EIT & Smart Valley's) "CommerceNet" proposal, which
is finding strong support at both a state and federal level.  See below for
a relevant overview/excerpt on CommerceNet.

Now it may be against this list's policy to talk about items for sale, but
there is no way of enforcing the rules from a "legal" standpoing. However,
from a social standpoint, certain lists could develop working policies that
ask users not to post certain kinds of information to the list. However,
please consider the following: on these rave lists, Chris has talked about
many topical things, holds the unique perspective of having been around
during the birth of the SF rave scene, and he also happens to sell "smart
drugs" that are quite topical to the rave scene. So give him some slack...

I don't see you complaining when someone reviews a new CD/LP on the
internet. Hell, if someone does a record review on the internet, one might
construe it as advertisement for the label/artist/individual responsible
for producing the record. Where do you draw the line?

You don't.  At least not yet.

In the future, we may start seeing more instances of unsavoury things like
"internet junk mail" and free offers that attempt to generate marketing
lists and so on. Unlike the television industry, we will more easily be
able to evolve towards technological solutions that can help us filter out
unwanted e-mail. Internet junk mail may eventually drive people towards
passing laws that limit the kinds of commercialization that may be
possible.

The internet is already paid for. We all paid for it with our tax dollars
(like it or not), and we all have a vote/voice (supposedly) on how it will
be used. So it may be possible to make "advertising" over the internet
illegal, but given the current political climate, the exact opposite is
happening. And I'm glad to see it happen -- I see such massive futuristic
government funded "public works projects" as the only way to get this
country out of the recession without having to resort to this nation's
other favorite means of economic stimulus -- WAR.

Consider the "data superhighway" in analogy to the US Interstate highway
system. Taxes are levied for use of the highways; paid out of vehicle
registration fees, gas taxes, etc. So who is going to support the
interstate equivalent of the internet? We all will, but hopefully the brunt
of the costs will be done as useage taxes for commercial users. Hopefully,
the free flavor of the internet will be maintained for individuals,
universities, and researchers.  However, there's no guarantee that it will.

Also, given the current growth of the internet, and the proliferation of
high-bandwidth data services (MBONE, World Wide Web), we're going to need
the tax base of commercial internet users to help pay for the higher-speed
networking infrastructure...

--------------------

<an example of future uses of the internet, excerpted from W.W.W.
http://www.eit.com/blurbs/smartval.html>

          COMMERCENET: SMART VALLEY'S ELECTRONIC COMMERCE INITIATIVE
                                       
  JAY M. TENENBAUM
  
   Smart Valley is sponsoring a TRP initiative on  electronic commerce.  The
   project will create  CommerceNet, an information highway linking  companies
   to customers, suppliers, and development  partners over the Internet.  It
   will also populate the  highway with innovative services by soliciting grass
   roots proposals and supporting them with matching  funds, technical
   assistance, and software.
   
   CommerceNet will start by linking companies that  comprise the Valley's
   electronics food chain: IC and  component manufacturers, distributors, PC
   board  assemblers, subsystem producers (e.g., disk drives,  power supplies),
   and computer system companies.  Initially, catalogs and product literature
   will be  available on the net. On-line ordering, product data  exchange,
   delivery scheduling, collaborative  engineering and other services will then
   be added  incrementally until every business function is  supported.  If the
   electronics industry pilot proves  successful, CommerceNet will be expanded
   to other  industries and geographic regions, and the  underlying information
   highway opened to other  sectors such as healthcare, education and

Anticipated Benefits

   CommerceNet will enhance competitiveness by  eliminating the delays, costs,
   and errors associated  with paper-based transactions. It will also
   significantly reduce inventory and excess capacity  by encouraging
   coordination of production  schedules and outsourcing.  By serving
   businesses in  both the commercial and defense sectors,  CommerceNet will
   accelerate the transition to a  single, unified industrial base.
   
   CommerceNet will open new business opportunities  by creating an electronic
   marketplace and  distribution channel for information services that are
   international in scope, virtually instantaneous, and  free. In the
   electronics industry, for example,  CommerceNet is expected to spawn
   information  businesses selling on-line access to CAD and  software
   libraries, supercomputer simulation, part  locating and order aggregating
   services, etc.   Finally, as a regional prototype of the proposed  National
   Information Infrastructure (NII),  CommerceNet will prepare the Valley's
   businesses  and other institutions to lead in the exploitation of
   electronic markets and information services.
   
   Many large companies already benefit from the  efficiencies of electronic
   data interchange (EDI)  with their major trading partners.  However, EDI is
   generally not cost effective for small companies or  occasional transactions
   because each relationship  entails expensive and time consuming private
   arrangements. A major goal of CommerceNet is to  make EDI widespread and
   spontaneous by  transacting business in open electronic markets on  public
   networks.
   
What's needed

   Four things are needed to make CommerceNet  successful.  First, JVSV's
   industry working groups  must join with trade associations (e.g., AEA, EIDX)
    to standardize business practices and certify  suppliers that adhere to
   them. E-commerce will not  take off as long as every company has
   idiosyncratic  trade agreements, vendor qualification processes,  part
   descriptions and the like.
   
   Second, a majority of the Valley's companies must  get on the Internet.
   Economical dial-up access to  the Internet is now available from a variety
   of local  services such as Netcom, Portal, and the Well.  For  more
   demanding applications, BARRNet is  collaborating with Pac Bell and other
   carriers to  create a new high-speed dial-up IP service that is an  order of
   magnitude more cost-effective than that  currently available using leased
   lines. The planned  service will exploit new technologies, such as ISDN,
   and economies of scale, such as centralized network  management services.
   
   Third, the Internet must be enhanced to support e- commerce. Essential
   services include privacy- enhanced multimedia mail, directories of people
   and  services, format translation, and remittance. More  advanced services
   include information retrieval,  real-time collaboration, and software
   interoperation.  Software is also needed that makes it easy for  developers
   to offer new services over the net and for  clients to use them.
   
   Finally, the marketplace must be primed with  services. We will start by
   persuading existing large  EDI trading partners to transact business on
   CommerceNet. We are pleased to report that the  EDI directors of several of
   the Valley's major  computer and semiconductor companies are eager to
   participate in CommerceNet, and to enlist their  suppliers and distributors.
   
   We will then focus on smaller companies and  individuals, helping them to
   develop innovative  services that expand their businesses or simplify  their
   interfaces with customers and suppliers. Many  such services can be
   delivered effectively via e- mail, and are thus candidates for early
   deployment.  We will lubricate this nascent marketplace by  establishing a
   directory of regional email addressees  and encouraging participants to
   adopt standard mail  boxes at their sites for services such as "info",
   "catalog", "support", "orders", etc. Momentum will  build rapidly, as
   companies sign on to take  advantage of the ever-growing spectrum of
   services,  then begin offering services of their own.
   
Next Steps

   A 5-year TRP proposal is being prepared for  submission on July 23, 1993.
   The funds are needed  to develop the enhanced Internet services and
   software, and to subsidize participation by small  businesses. Thereafter,
   CommerceNet will be self- supporting.  The required matching funds will come
   from the in-kind contributions of recipients of  development grants, as
   well as vendor-supplied  subsidies for purchasing network services, hardware
   and software.
   
   ...

--------------------

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
==           Niels Mayer -- netcom!mayer -- mayer@netcom.com               ==
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 18:39:07 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 18:39:34 -0700
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309290139.AA07432@netcom6.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Apology
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 A few months ago I ran a similar posting to the one I just mailed through
the net,and basically nobody complained except the administrator of one
list,which I pointedly left out of this posting.As Niel pointed out,as far
as I know,there has been a policy shift vis a vis commercial traffic on
the net.Still,I can sympathize to a certain extent with the Caltech
persons concerns.Ive seen lists when they get mired in commercial
traffic,and its not something I like either.But I don't think this has
happened yet on sfraves..and I hope it never does.I'm sorry to have
contributed to the noise level. Still,I'd rather read about tapes,or
nutritional supplements,or interesting deals on CD's than some other
things..like flame wars. Pick your poison.. Still.. I havn't unsubscribed
yet!!
:)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)

By the way,to the people who responded..thanks for the support.
I'm sort of up in the air until we know what new kind of legislation is
coming out of washington.If things work out..I'll be introducing a
new,better product soon.(a single serving product,and I'll leave it at that)
If they dont..well,I'm already looking for another job!!
Big Hugs to Everyone!
-C.


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 18:57:07 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 18:57:30 -0700
Message-Id: <9309290157.AA12095@netcom.netcom.com>
To: hogg@tapir.caltech.edu (David Hogg)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Questions, questions, questions...
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>   I understand that it is a violation of internet rules to advertise
>products for sale.  Please desist lest the internet become like the
>television industry.
>
>David W. Hogg
>Theoretical Astrophysics 130-33         internet:  hogg@tapir.caltech.edu
>California Institute of Technology      telephone: 818 395 6875
>Pasadena CA 91125 USA                   facsimile: 818 796 5675


Is it true that there are actually people, who stay logged onto the net,
looking for violations of some code-of-ethics that are unenforceable by
law?  Where do they find the time to scan all of the lists?  Are they
called "net cops" or am I mistaken?  Is it true that the internet in many
ways IS the television industry?  Who's on first?  I wanna know!

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 18:57:16 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 18:57:35 -0700
Message-Id: <9309290157.AA12125@netcom.netcom.com>
To: john@makesys.com (John Turman)
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: Whoaaa doctor!  From my HOMETOWN!
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

>Mr. Hank is a fellow down in North Miami Florida who makes the most impressive
>sounding speaker enclosures I've ever heard. My band used to use a PA system
>designed by him that kicked ass. It used Phase Linear active crossovers and
>Phase Linear A700's. Clean and LOUD!

Man!  I remember hearing about this guy when I was just a teenie-weenie
causing no-trouble in Miami.  Yeah, Mr. Hank used to have a store on 7th
Ave in North Miami (really Unincorporated Dade).  Man his shit was kickin
way back when Luke was still doing his shit in Parking Lots in Liberty
City!  Yeah, I remeber his name, and remeber his systems.  At one time he
did do a few car jobs, but his customized speaker systems were legendary in
the area....wow!  Fucking memories man, memories!!!! :)


================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 19:14:56 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309290215.AA15667@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Questions, questions, questions...
To: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 19:15:19 PDT
Cc: hogg@tapir.caltech.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309290157.AA12095@netcom.netcom.com>; from "John S. Lee" at Sep 28, 93 6:57 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

John S. Lee sez:
> 
> Is it true that there are actually people, who stay logged onto the net,
> looking for violations of some code-of-ethics that are unenforceable by
> law?  Where do they find the time to scan all of the lists?  Are they
> called "net cops" or am I mistaken?  Is it true that the internet in many
> ways IS the television industry?  Who's on first?  I wanna know!
> 

John, I've disagreed with ya in the past, but that was fuckin'
beautiful.  Thanx!

-H "Internet and Rules in the same sentence? ha ha hahahahahaha"-



-- 
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                                             howard@netcom.com   
   If an airplane's software was QA'ed at Microsoft, would you fly in it?
...........................................................................

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 21:28:26 1993
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From: erikn@boa.mitron.tek.com (Erik Nilsson)
Message-Id: <9309290007.AA22127@boa.MITRON.TEK.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 17:06:59 PDT
To: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>
Cc: hogg@tapir.caltech.edu (David Hogg), ccat@netcom.com,
        ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU,
        socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: Internet Rules?? (was Re: Addition to Promotion.. )
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Sep 93 18:21:40 -0700.
             <9309290121.AA06068@netcom6.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


> From: hogg@tapir.caltech.edu (David Hogg)
> >    I understand that it is a violation of internet rules to advertise
> > products for sale.  Please desist lest the internet become like the
> > television industry.
> 
> Wrong!
> 
....

> There are plenty of companies that are doing business over the
> internet ...

I wouldn't be connected to the internet, if I didn't have a business
justification.  My life is mostly written in my charge slips; commerce
strengthens the internet.

The internet will not become like television, the internet will
destroy television, and with it the concept of valueless broadcast
advertising passively watched.  However, laying just under television
in the dustbin of history will be the sterile internet coteries that
couldn't tolerate any discussion so real it might involve money.  The
thing I like about the rave lists is that they relate to SOMETHING
THAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE ACTUAL WORLD, as opposed to
alt.intelectual.pointless.  I'm not particularly interested in Chris's
products, so I skip over his messages, but what he is doing is not as
big a problem as people who say, "In my day, we didn't do that on the
Internet."  Refuse to use pens with logos on them, refuse to use the
rubber dividers at the checkout line if they have ads on them, refuse
to read free magazines with ads in them, then tell me that commerce
has no place on the internet.


BTW, EIT is doing some very cool stuff.  EIT is one of the companies
that want to make the Internet available to as many people as
possible, and have, I hear, been working with well-known privacy
advocates Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR).
I have a lot more respect for EIT and Jay Tenenbaum than I do for
those who want to make the Internet into some sort of electronic
gentleman's club.


I hope none of you are offended by my companie's new official SIG
line.  While it doesn't mention our products (Software for electronics
manufacturing), it could still be construed as advertising.

        --------------------------------------------------------
        |  Erik Nilsson, Senior Engineer                       |
        |  Mitron Corporation                     |\  /|       |
        |  15256 N.W. Greenbrier Parkway          | \/ |ITRON  |
        |  Beaverton, OR  97006                   |    |       |
        |  Phone: (503) 690-8350                  ======       |
        |  FAX: (503) 690-9292                                 |
        |  Email: erikn@goldfish.mitron.tek.com                |
        --------------------------------------------------------


From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 22:20:43 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 22:21:08 -0700
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309290521.AA25427@netcom6.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Free "magazine"
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

O'Reilly and Associates are starting a new online "magazine" that will
run as a page in the "World Wide Web" (W3).. Its available by writing
info@gnn.com  Its going to be called "Global Network Navigator" and will
include online advertising.BTW, I just got the Mac beta of NCSAMosaic
and although I cant use it,not having SLIP or PPP yet..I did upload it to
Morphus Outpost Online a TOTALLY COOL new Mac BBS.510 238 4554
-Chris.

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 23:00:07 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309290600.AA14641@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Free "magazine"
To: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 23:00:33 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309290521.AA25427@netcom6.netcom.com>; from "Chris Beaumont" at Sep 28, 93 10:21 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Chris Beaumont sez:
> include online advertising.BTW, I just got the Mac beta of NCSAMosaic
> and although I cant use it,not having SLIP or PPP yet..I did upload it to
> Morphus Outpost Online a TOTALLY COOL new Mac BBS.510 238 4554
> -Chris.
> 

Cool.  I strongly encourage everyone to check out NCSA Mosaic.
Xmosaic is the strongest integrated package I've seen of its kind for
less than $1k.

The Mac version is probably as cool.  It does require MacTCP, I
believe, plus a SLIP connection (or better).  If you are on a
networked mac at school, it's just the ticket.  (Geoff, is there a
discount at internex for SFRavers? :-) :-)


-H-



-- 
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                                             howard@netcom.com   
   If an airplane's software was QA'ed at Microsoft, would you fly in it?
...........................................................................

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 23:05:10 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309290605.AA15642@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: NCSA Mosaic (was: Re: Free Magazine)
To: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 23:05:30 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309290521.AA25427@netcom6.netcom.com>; from "Chris Beaumont" at Sep 28, 93 10:21 pm
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sorry.  After "Strongly Recommending" it, I should have mentioned
where to get it :-)

Check ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu  (it used to be zaphod.ncsa.uiuc.edu... may
still be ok)

-H-

-- 
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                                             howard@netcom.com   
   If an airplane's software was QA'ed at Microsoft, would you fly in it?
...........................................................................

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 23:16:15 1993
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 23:16:42 -0700
From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309290616.AA17789@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: FTP of mosaic binaries
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


The Mosaic binaries (both for mac and x) are available at ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu
and Mac PPP is available at netcom.com /pub/scotts/PPP
You need MacTCP,which I understand is available in a book somewhere as
some sort of package deal..(evidently its bundled with some other software that
makes it a far better deal than buying it from Apple for $170...)
Dont have it yet so I can't comment... but if anyone gets it up and
running I'd love to see it operating...I hear Mosaic is slow over a
modem..but still..
 -C.

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 23:31:06 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 23:30:59 -0700
In-Reply-To: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
       "Apology" (Sep 28,  6:39pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: Apology
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

As long as the for-sale stuff relates to the rave scene, it's no less
appropriate than posting CD's for sale to rec.music.marketplace (which 
I recently did, and had a LOT of success with).  

        Brian

From sfraves-owner  Tue Sep 28 23:50:07 1993
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From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Message-Id: <9309290650.AA24593@netcom2.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FTP of mosaic binaries
To: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 23:50:32 PDT
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
In-Reply-To: <9309290616.AA17789@netcom2.netcom.com>; from "Chris Beaumont" at Sep 28, 93 11:16 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

> You need MacTCP,which I understand is available in a book somewhere as
> some sort of package deal..(evidently its bundled with some other software that
> makes it a far better deal than buying it from Apple for $170...)

The package from apple is the complete developers package.  If you get
MacTCP with anything else (back to, I believe, v. 1.1.1) it will work
fine with Mosaic.

> Dont have it yet so I can't comment... but if anyone gets it up and
> running I'd love to see it operating...I hear Mosaic is slow over a
> modem..but still..

I'm sure it would be slow.  But still, it's as least as good as eudora
and it does news, gopher, and WAIS too...

-H-




-- 
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey                                             howard@netcom.com   
   If an airplane's software was QA'ed at Microsoft, would you fly in it?
...........................................................................

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 04:33:02 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 12:33:52 BST
Message-Id: <2211.9309291133@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: winston@lurnix.com
Cc: ccat@netcom.com, hogg%tapir.caltech.edu%uunet@uunet.uu.net,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu
In-Reply-To: Mark Guthrie's message of Tue, 28 Sep 93 16:21:14 PDT <9309282321.AA09229@cassy.lurnix.com>
Subject: Re: Addition to Promotion..
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



  Mark> Is it a violation of rules or breach of ettiquette?  There's a difference.


Well, much of the traffic on this list is going to and from US
academic sites.  That means it will traverse the NSFnet backbone and
several of the regional mid-level networks.  These networks are funded
out of public money, and they are governed by a set of rules known as
"Acceptable Use Policy", or AUP.

In the case of NSFnet, AUP dictates that the network is only used for
traffic in direct support of education and reseach activities.  In
practice, this is interpreted in a pretty lax manner, and pretty much
any non-commercial traffic is tollerated.  And of course, some
commercial traffic satisfies the AUP -- eg a university comminicating
with a commercial vendor in order to get information about products
for academic use.

So the answer is, technically, yes, it's a breach of AUP.  In
practice, as long as it doesn't become excessive, no one will care.

But remember, the US government is paying for it.....

Hope this answers the question....


	Cosmic Roy

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 08:54:23 1993
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To: jsl@netcom.com
Subject: Re: shoes & October ugliness
From: andy@wco.ftp.com  (andy nourse)
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Cc: derek@ocf.berkeley.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Repository: monster
Originating-Client: tick.ftp.com
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


    Yeah, I did always wanto to know what in the hell do you dance with when on
    the sand!

For the sand, bare feet are best, imntlbho.



From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 09:09:04 1993
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Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 12:08:49 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309291608.AA02303@pilot.njin.net>
To: erikn@boa.mitron.tek.com (Erik Nilsson)
Cc: "Niels P. Mayer" <mayer@netcom.com>, ccat@netcom.com,
        hogg@tapir.caltech.edu (David Hogg), ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: Internet Rules?? (was Re: Addition to Promotion.. )
In-Reply-To: <9309290007.AA22127@boa.MITRON.TEK.COM>
References: <9309290007.AA22127@boa.MITRON.TEK.COM>
	<9309290121.AA06068@netcom6.netcom.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I do refuse to use shopping carts with big cigarette ads on them. And
I make a point of telling the store manager why.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 09:51:14 1993
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Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 12:50:51 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309291650.AA03936@pilot.njin.net>
To: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Cc: ccat@netcom.com, hogg%tapir.caltech.edu%uunet@uunet.uu.net,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu, winston@lurnix.com
Subject: Re: Addition to Promotion..
In-Reply-To: <2211.9309291133@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
References: <2211.9309291133@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
	<9309282321.AA09229@cassy.lurnix.com>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

 > Well, much of the traffic on this list is going to and from US
 > academic sites.  That means it will traverse the NSFnet backbone and
 > several of the regional mid-level networks.  These networks are funded
 > out of public money, and they are governed by a set of rules known as
 > "Acceptable Use Policy", or AUP.
 > 
 > In the case of NSFnet, AUP dictates that the network is only used for
 > traffic in direct support of education and reseach activities.  In
 > practice, this is interpreted in a pretty lax manner, and pretty much
 > any non-commercial traffic is tollerated.  And of course, some
 > commercial traffic satisfies the AUP -- eg a university comminicating
 > with a commercial vendor in order to get information about products
 > for academic use.

I talked to Stephen Wolff (director of the NSF) a while back when I
was working at the University of Kentucky. It is a long story, but I
was in the middle of a funding battle for the University's T3 line.
The official answer is that the policy is not enforced for things like
personal sales, etc. Where one draws the line is largely interpreted
by system administrators, and their opinion on whether the violation
will affect their NSF funding :).

Outside  traffic that passes through the NSF doesn't make the sender
liable for the AUP. It makes the actual NSF site liable.

In any case, there is zero chance that Chris' sale announcement is
going to blow any official gaskets anywhere. The only objections here
are personal, not official, and I don't think the sfravers as a group
have a problem with it or any of the other announcements that are tied
to money.

Sean


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 10:16:50 1993
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From: Roy Badami <roy@harlequin.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 18:17:16 BST
Message-Id: <8709.9309291717@wundt.harlequin.co.uk>
To: csc@pilot.njin.net
Cc: ccat@netcom.com, hogg%tapir.caltech.edu%uunet@uunet.uu.net,
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu, winston@lurnix.com
In-Reply-To: Sean Casey's message of Wed, 29 Sep 93 12:50:51 EDT <9309291650.AA03936@pilot.njin.net>
Subject: Re: Addition to Promotion..
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



  Sean> Outside  traffic that passes through the NSF doesn't make the sender
  Sean> liable for the AUP. It makes the actual NSF site liable.

Yep, that soudns right.  But when you say NSF site, you mean any site
that's registered with the NSFnet as having "fully connected status",
which includes a large proportion of all internet sites.  There are
very few sites directly on the NSFnet network (most connect via a
mid-level net).

eg harlequin.co.uk is registered with NSFnet as being fully connected,
which means that our IP packets will be forwarded by their routers.
In order to get fully connected status, of course, we had to agree to
be bound by the AUP.  Without fully connected status, NSFnet will just
drop your packets, so you'll be unable to ftp to most edu sites, for
instance....

  Sean> In any case, there is zero chance that Chris' sale announcement is
  Sean> going to blow any official gaskets anywhere. 

Yep, I think I said that.  I have no objections at all to Chris's
announcement, and I doubt anyone else would either.

I just didn't like to see lots of dangerous misinformation proclaiming
that the internet has no rules, only etiquette.  That may be true of
cooperative networks like UUCPnet, but it's certainly not true for the
large centrally run backbones that make up the internet.


	Cosmic Roy

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 10:33:22 1993
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Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gioni Pasquinelli <pasque@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: FMR
To: The Ravin' Peoples <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.07.9309291011.A29620-8100000@hamlet.ucdavis.edu>
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	Anybody coming from Sac or Davis want to carpool to the FMR tonight?
Give me a call at 916-753-3971 or e-mail me.

See ya,
Gioni Pasquinelli
pasque@hamlet.ucdavis.edu      What doesn't kill you makes you stronger


From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 10:47:11 1993
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To: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Reply-To: jvance@uci.edu
Subject: Re: Internet Rules?? (was Re: Addition to Promotion.. ) 
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 10:46:42 -0700
From: Joachim Vance (The Underdog) <jvance@einstein.oac.uci.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


  As most of this topic is not related to these lists, I want to leave
you with a few things to think about (that are by no means the last
word on the subject) and then ask that this topic be taken to private
email (or the individual groups if the discussion is "appropriate posts
to foo-raves").

  1.  AUPs (Acceptable Use Policies) are in conflict everywhere.
      Every network and site have AUPs that vary from "you can do
      anything that's not illegal" to "you can't do anything unless
      it's related to school/research."   This conflict is quite a
      hindrance to the growth of the internet and quite a few people
      think that most AUPs should be thrown out the window.

  2.  Due to the "seamless" nature of the internet and the existence
      of  commercial and other net backbones, it is not always
      obvious whether or not a piece of traffic will pass through the
      NSFnet backbone.  This makes AUPs rather difficult to enforce.

  3.  The "rave" mailing lists are arguably not "acceptable use" of
      most university/research sites.  At UCI a short time ago, they
      determined that USENET and email to off campus sites were not
      acceptable use of UCI's instructional computers (funded in part
      by the NSF).  Luckily some students and faculty who felt that
      these were important learning tools managed to overturn that
      policy.   

  4.  I think that since Usenet and email lists cross so many
      boundaries that it should be up to the local communities to
      determine acceptable uses of each area.  Some newsgroups/lists
      go the moderated route to enforce this.  Other's are less
      stringent. 

   If you feel that a particular type of post threatens your net access
then take it up with the poster or the list administrator.  More
often than not, that should be a job for the NFS or site admin to deal
with.   Or, if as a group each lists decides that "commercial" posts
are not appropriate then I'm sure that the members will be happy not
to make commercial type posts.

   Personally I feel that the only posts to SoCal-Raves (and the other
mailing lists for that matter)that are inappropriate are those that
are off topic. 

Joachim

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 11:07:21 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: asah@cs.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: sfraver seeks FMR ride from Berkeley...
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 11:08:15 -0700
From: asah@ginsberg.CS.Berkeley.EDU
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Thanks in advance!!!

asah@cs.berkeley.edu
H: 510-644-9752
W: 510-642-8282






From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 12:05:26 1993
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To: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: rberger@internex.net (Robert Berger)
Subject: Re: FTP of mosaic binaries
Cc: geoffw%nexsys@igc.apc.org (Geoff White)
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

At 11:16 PM 9/28/93 -0700, Chris Beaumont wrote:
>The Mosaic binaries (both for mac and x) are available at ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu
>and Mac PPP is available at netcom.com /pub/scotts/PPP
>You need MacTCP,which I understand is available in a book somewhere as
>some sort of package deal..(evidently its bundled with some other software that
>makes it a far better deal than buying it from Apple for $170...)
>Dont have it yet so I can't comment... but if anyone gets it up and
>running I'd love to see it operating...I hear Mosaic is slow over a
>modem..but still..
> -C.

The book is called:
Internet Starter Kit for Macinotsh by Adam C. Engst (Publisher of TidBITS)
ISBN: 1-56830-064-6 List price $29.95

Should be available shortly at all the cool bookstores. It indead comes with MacTCP 2.02
(a $59 value). It also comes with the latest versions of freeware: Fetch (FTP), Eudora (Email)
InterSLIP (SLIP under MacTCP), TurboGopher, and Stuffit Expander.

Also if modem's are  too slow, (warning commercial comming up :-) you can
use our ISDN to the Internet service which currently has a POP in Menlo
Park and soon in San Francisco, South Bay and East Bay. FTP to internex.net for
more info...

Bob





From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 12:44:46 1993
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From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309291945.AA26357@netcom4.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: ORB
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I'm informed by Allen at Ameba that they
will be selling Orb tickets..
I don't think they're in yet.
-C.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 14:37:13 1993
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From: stig@netcom.com (Stig)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 14:37:38 PDT
Organization: Tinker Systems
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: I need a clue...
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


My friends who usually follow the rave scene don't know where FMR is going to
be.  I just signed up for the list and haven't seen anything in the last 24
hours...  Someone told me that it's spread by word of mouth.

Sorry for the dumb question, but how do I find it?  Email or post as
appropriate. 

    Thank you.
    Stig


;; __________________________________________________________________________
;; Stig@netcom.com                            netcom.com:/pub/stig/00-PGP-KEY
;; It's hard to be cutting-edge at your own pace...   32 DF B9 19 AE 28 D1 7A
;; Bullet-proof code cannot stand up to teflon bugs.  A3 9D 0B 1A 33 13 4D 7F

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 14:37:16 1993
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From: Randy Tinkerman <rmt@well.sf.ca.us>
To: ccat@netcom.com, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:  ORB
Message-Id: <93Sep29.143559pdt.14328-2@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 	Wed, 29 Sep 1993 14:35:57 -0700
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Bill Graham Presents is doing all it can to F**K Up the ORB show, 
and local scene production efforts, despite desire by ORB management
to have local production/promotion.  For example, they refused to allow nick
Nick Phillips (Anarchic) to design the flyers, because he wasn't *big* or 
*professional* enough. 

Power corrupts.
alpha-10

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 15:38:39 1993
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Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 18:38:28 EDT
From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309292238.AA16096@pilot.njin.net>
To: jvance@uci.edu
Cc: ne-raves@gnu.ai.mit.edu, sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, socal-raves@ucsd.edu
Subject: Re: Internet Rules?? (was Re: Addition to Promotion.. ) 
In-Reply-To: <199309291746.AA29483@leakey.oac.uci.edu>
References: <199309291746.AA29483@leakey.oac.uci.edu>
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Joachim Vance (The Underdog) writes:

 >   3.  The "rave" mailing lists are arguably not "acceptable use" of
 >       most university/research sites.  At UCI a short time ago, they
 >       determined that USENET and email to off campus sites were not
 >       acceptable use of UCI's instructional computers (funded in part
 >       by the NSF).  Luckily some students and faculty who felt that
 >       these were important learning tools managed to overturn that
 >       policy.   

Universities have been deciding things arbitrarily and censoring
things based on content for far too long. Recently, students have been
battling it in court, and they have been winning.

Would a modern dance mailing list be acceptable?
Would one oriented towards the school's football team?
How about a math club list?

If any of these are acceptable, then a rave list is acceptable.
Especially at a public university:

    It is illegal for a public university to censor a public forum or
    a limited public forum (such as a mailing list) on the basis of
    content.

This isn't my opinion; it's legal precedent and case history. If a
public university does this, it's a violation of 1st amendment rights
(and IMHO, poor academia).  Most students aren't aware of the
legalities.

Unfortunately, the sfraves list is being run from a private
university, so we don't enjoy those constitutional protections.

Sean




From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 17:11:59 1993
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From: csc@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
Message-Id: <9309300011.AA19088@pilot.njin.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Need good rave video
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

If anyone has a good rave video they'd be willing to lend me, I'd love
to take one back to Lexington KY and show them what they're like here.
I think it'd be neat to show them a FMR and a mid-sized indoor.

Sean

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 18:45:52 1993
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From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309300146.AA27408@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Susie in the Chronicle
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hey!
Our very own Susan Kameny is mentioned in todays Chron article about the cabaret law.. Joe Bob says check it out!
-C.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 19:31:27 1993
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From: hsarbaz@koko.csustan.edu (Hoss Sarbaz)
Message-Id: <9309300231.AA05960@koko.csustan.edu>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Question?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Does anyone know what's going on on Friday oct.1? Also if so what are the rules about taping it? Do we have to have permission from anyone to do so for personal 
collection? 

Hoss.

From sfraves-owner  Wed Sep 29 19:31:32 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 19:31:28 -0700
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Subject: S.F. Panel Backs Easing of Cabaret Curfew Laws
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

[SF Chronicle, 9/29/93]

by Dan Levy  [name sounds familiar.... -brian]

        In a victory for all-night dancers and party-goers, a San
Francisco supervisors' committee voted yesterday to amend the police
code to make it legal for people aged 18 to 21 to enter and be inside
dance halls and cabarets after 2 a.m.

        By a 2-to-1 vote, the Board of Supervisors' Health and Public
Safety Committee changed the rarely enforced police code section,
which currently allows only those over the age of 21 to be inside
"after hours" establishments after 2 a.m.  The motion now goes before
the full 11-member board.

	The hearing drew about 100 club-world denizens to the
supervisors' chambers for the second time in two weeks.  After a few
of them testified against the current law, Supervisor Terence
Hallinan, the author of the proposed amendment, asked to see a show of
support.  Like a classroom full of dutiful pupils, a mass of hands
went up.

	"I can vote, I can buy stock, but interestingly enough, I
can't dance," said Susan Kameny, a 21-year-old student who was
presumably speaking for her younger friends.  Referring to police
concerns that a change in the code would lead to more crime, Kameny
said, "I don't think it's fair to use young adults as scapegoats."

[GO SUSIE!  FEED THEM THOSE SOUND BYTES BABY!]

	San Francisco police Lieutenant Barry Johnson told the
supervisors that he saw "no social redeeming value" to dancing after 2
a.m.  He implied that officers from the department's Southern Station,
which handles the South of Market nightclub district, have a difficult
time dealing with "300 to 400 people roaming the streets, going from
club to club."

	In an interview after the hearing, Johnson said a large part
of the police concern stems from the station's own staffing problems.
South of Market has the city's highest concentration of cabarets and
nightclubs, but Southern Station does not have the officers to beef up
patrols on weekends and popular club nights, Johnson said.

	"We don't have enough people," he said.

	"If we're going to cover the area the way we're going to have
to now, we'll need more people."

[sheeya, right.]

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 13:40:35 1993
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From: bbehlen@techno.Stanford.EDU (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 13:40:30 PDT
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: sfraves
Subject: Ooops
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Sorry about that.  SFRaves is now back in business.

        Brian

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 14:35:25 1993
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From: ccat@netcom.com (Chris Beaumont)
Message-Id: <9309302135.AA07052@netcom2.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: ITS A GIRL!!!!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


Julie and Perry of HOUSEWARES had a BABY GIRL on Sunday,I think!!!
Mama and child are doing very well!!! Perry says the little girl is
beautiful!!!
YAY!!!!
Don't know what else to say..Perry was obviously very proud when I saw him
yesterday!!!   Cant wait to see mama and child and congratulate them,
Another future raver born!
-C.

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 14:47:45 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 14:44:43 PDT
Cc: sfraves-calendar@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFR Calendar)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


I haven't really been out this week, so I didn't find any flyers
for Friday...if anyone gets anything, post it.  Otherwise, check out
Corduroy City or Mission Rock; I think Zanzibar has stopped (I was
there at 1:30 two Fridays ago and no Josh).  Saturday, Mr.Floppy is
back with an intriguing lineup including several live acts.

And Sunday, everyone come out to Golden Gate Park, as SFR brings back
the "Rave in the Park"!  Thanks to Leg of Eel for doing a lot of the
organizing (and permit-retrieving) for this, and other SFR members for
contributing DJ talents, sound, moola, and other goodies.  It oughta
be a fantastic afternoon, and hopefully we can move it in the evening!


*****************************************************************************
UPCOMING RAVES IN THE SF/BAY AREA                     	    Updated: 09.30.93
*****************************************************************************

Saturday, October 2nd - Origin
	Doran  Spun  Josh  Tony  Jas
	415.905.8831

Saturday, October 2nd - Mr Floppy Presents...Aceeed!
  	live: Sue Real, Space Time Continuum, XKP, Poot Jazz
  	acid house DJs: Shobhan, Magic D
  	chill with: Chris, Charlie, Jayson, Rev. Markus Hawkins
	520 4th St. (the trocadero)

Saturday, October 2nd - Divinity
  	La Paix  Carlos  Dutch  Moonpup  Rig-a-Tony
  	laminate pass and free smart drink with presale tix purchase at
  	Copy Cat Cafe [Sacramento? fh] - supposedly 'in a cave in Davis'
  	916/863-9292

Sunday, October 3rd - SFR presents: Connection Earth
	Marx Meadow, Golden Gate Park!  Noon-5pm
	DJs Lee  Markie  Jon D.; audio by SoundVision
	info: 415.487.8497	

Saturday, October 9th - Energy
	Doc Martin  Ghost  Mojo Hand  Willy Wonka  Josh  Alfie
	Tattooing/body piercing/fruit & salad bars/smart bars/alcohol bars
	3-d visuals/3-d glasses
	415-995-4787	916-557-5845	18+, $10 before 11

Friday, October 15th - Liquid Air 
	DJs Tamara, Laura, Jon D., Cris
	Audio by Sound Vision
	info: 415.487.8497	

Friday, October 15th - the Orb at the Warfield
	w/DJs Buck, Markie, others.
	tix will be at Bass and Ameba.

Saturday, October 16th - Passage
	Noel  Ghost  Dave Alga  Dolphi  Rob  Ted
	510-505-8841

Saturday, October 16 - It's A Small World
  	Richie (UK), Carlos, Ghost, Dutch, Spinner, Frank Nitty
  	415/245-5066, 510/716-2688, 408/488-RUEN

Saturday, October 23rd - Basics
	Tony  Doran  Josh  Spun  Jeno  Jon Williams
	415-905-9629

Saturday, October 23rd - The Cat in the Hat - 415.995.4646

Saturday, October 23rd - benefit for the Coalition on Homelessness
	presented by YSH, TAZ & Aurgasm

Saturday, October 23rd - Wicked - 415.512.5713

Saturday, October 30th - The Finale of Funky Tekno Tribe
  	Doran, Simon, Garth, Graeme, Tony, Spin, Thomas, Jeno, DJ Dan
  	415/266-8215

Sunday, October 31st - Casper (more details to follow)

Saturday, November 13th - Circa '93 w/Orbital, Aphex Twin and Moby 
	email circa@netcom.com for info. :)

Saturday, November 20th - Come Together

Penelope's Web 2 - at the same location as the first, more details to follow...
	415-765-7671

Tribal Funk - 415.756.1531 - details to follow

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        People who want to send money, cards and other goodwill 
	thoughts to Malachy can make checks payable to the:
                M. O'Brien Healing Fund
                1388 Haight st #117
                San Francisco CA. 94112
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be-AT INFO LINE: 415-626-4087. 
The Elmo line - (415) 884-ABCD
Ameba - 415-750-9368
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some weeklies - whether or not they count as real "raves" is 
debatable, but they were advertised by flyers and the music could be
good. If anyone can provide reviews of them, i.e., their appropriateness 
in being on the list, let me know.  Also let me know when any of them stop...

---Thursday------------------------------------------------------------------

SFR South Bay Lunch - noon at Greer Park in Palo Alto.  
	e-mail larryc@netcom.com for directions.
YOUR SISTERS' HOUSE - 9pm discussion - 10pm-4am funkygrooves - 415-765-7670
Deep Space - 200 N. 1st Street, SJ - 21+ - Rick Preston, others
Universal Groove - Carlos, Ghost, Dutch, Dave Alga, Duran (sic), Bones
	9pm-5am, $5.  415.281.5913  510.869.2727
Ajax - Acid Jazz w/Harry Who (San Jose)
Eclipse - 2520 Camino Diablo, Walnut Creek. open till 4, 18+
Delusions of Grandeur - every other Thursday - Jon Williams, Robbie & Scott
	Hardkiss.  Ambience by SpaceTime Continuum.  Visuals by Synergy.
	10pm - 6am, 1015 Folsom. 

---Friday--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mission Rock - 817 China Basin - $5 - 21+
Life - Sound Factory - 525 Harrison @ 1st, SF    415.543.1300   21+
Corduroy City - $5 - 11-6am - 415.974.9715
Dig! - Cleo's Cafe @ Haight&Pierce. Acid Jazz & deep house w/Charlotte
	and Rasoul.  5-10pm, no cover, all ages.

---Saturday------------------------------------------------------------------

Lost It - Steve Mitchel, Dutch, Richie, La Paix - 2am-noon - $5 - DNA Lounge
Housing Project - 6am-2pm - DJ Dani & guests - End Up 401 6th @ Harrison, 21+ 
Deep House Sessions at the Groove Station  1141 Polk St  6-9 pm  FREE
Cornbread - acid jazz, house - noon - blondies, 540 valencia@16th 415.487.6246
Funky Underground - Dimensions, S 1st St, San Jose 408.920.1762
Rhythm - Neon Leon, Jan Cooley, Markie - 177 Townsend - 21+ - 415-281-3344
The Fridge - on hold - $7 - 21+ - 415-487-6305
Aurgasm - on hold - collective T.A.Z. - $5 before 12 - 415.974.9363

---Sunday--------------------------------------------------------------------

Boogie Buffet - 1015 Folsom - 6am-2pm - 415-979-8845
EndUp from 6am - 6th & Harrison
Cleo's Cafe - Haight & Pierce - informal YSH gathering - 2pm-8pm - free!
Bulletproof boat party - 5-9pm pier 40 (last Sunday of each month) 
        Tickets at Bulletproof 629 Haight (255.7168)
Spundae - various guest DJs - 55 Natoma  
Drift - the ambient club - spike's, 8th & Minna, 10 till 2 am
Tranceformation - 201 9th @ Howard - $3, 21+ - 415-267-6189
Punch Drunk - Cal's, 2001 Union St @ Buchanan - 6pm - 415-776-7036
Sunday Joy - 8th & Kirkham (in the Sunset) - 2pm-7pm - $2
Deep Forest - Carlos, Dutch, & Guests - 7am-? - 18+ - $3 - 415.679.8070
Flapjacks - by Curious George - 18+, 6am-3pm, $4 incl. pancakes. 510-505-8841

---Monday--------------------------------------------------------------------

Pepper.  Deep House with Buck, Josh, Chris Lum. 668 Haight, 10-2AM, $3, 21+. 
	[10/4 - Thomas & Chris Lum]
	[10/11 - Jan Cooley & The Baroness]
	[10/18 - Ernie & Shakra]
Mushroom Jazz - acid jazz w/Mark Farina, Thomas, Ammon, Is, Alex, Kevin
	$3, 9pm-3am.  Club Oasis, 278 11th St, 21+. 415-905-8811
Depth Chamber - temporarily on hold - 9-2am, 21+, (415)241-1560
FreeLife - every other Monday at 551 W.Julian (@Montgomery) in San Jose.

---Tuesday-------------------------------------------------------------------

Together - Simon, Garth, guests - Big Heart City (339 Jessie) 415-979-8825
Progress - 150 S.2nd St in San Jose (Club Oz, lower level entrance).
	21+, 408-236-2284.  DJs Julius, Rick Preston, Leonard & guests

---Wednesday-----------------------------------------------------------------

Housing Project - DJs Jeno & Josh. 9-330am @ the EndUp, 401 6th @ harrison 21+
Mystery School - 525 Harrison @ 1st (Sound Factory) - 21+, 11pm - sunrise
	415-337-4905
Tilt - Jan Cooley, Neon Leon, Frankie Feliciano, Roger S. - 540 Howard (DV8)
Limbo Lounge - every other Wednesday (at Selectionz?) - San Jose
Java - 2730 Harrison @ 16th - 18+ - 415.905.6443

---Connection 2 Tapes--------------------------------------------------------
4 cassettes >> 6 hours >> complete live house
DJs: Moonpup, Scott Hardkiss, Jon Drukman, Lee and Blurrr 
contact Bob Ramstad (boccibob%groovy@us.oracle.com) 
$15 + $5 shipping, $5 of which goes to the Malachy O'Brien healing fund 

---RADIO SHOWS---------------------------------------------------------------
Saturday mornings 1-3:30am - Mescalina, KALX 90.7 (Berkeley)
Sunday mornings 1-3:30am - Minor Minor KALX 90.7 (Berkeley)
Mondays 10pm - Belladonna, KFJC 89.7, Foothill College (Los Altos Hills)
Tuesdays noon-3pm - "London Jamaica" w/Unknown KZSU 90.1 (Stanford)
Tuesdays 7:30-10:00pm - Pete Gracious, KSCU 103.3 (Santa Clara)
weeknights ~9pm - the Modern Mix w/Steve Masters KITS 105.3 (SF)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone has info on any other events, submit them! I can't possibly hope
to get all the info every week. 

Brian Behlendorf, bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu, 510-649-0351 and
Derek Chung, dhchung@us.oracle.com, 415-506-6195


To subscribe/unsubscribe to the calendar mailing list, send e-mail to
majordomo@sfraves.stanford.edu with either the line

subscribe sfraves-calendar   or
unsubscribe sfraves-calendar   

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 14:50:29 1993
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Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 14:41:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Susan R. Kameny" <susie@potrero.SFSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: S.F. Panel Backs Easing of Cabaret Curfew Laws
To: Brian Behlendorf <bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu>
Cc: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
In-Reply-To: <9309300231.AA00335@soda.berkeley.edu>
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i wanted to let you guys know a little more about what is happening inside
city hall...well first of all i want to point out that clubs in this city
are sponcering the lawyers to help move this along...clubs by there nature
of making moola have decided to use this is an attempt to be anti-rave
(i.e. outdoor renegade) ...an amendment to an amendment changed it so that
this new curfew law only applies to places that are "permitted and
opperated as a cabaret"...now in one respect this is cool...cuz then 18-21
year olds can dance after 2...but it could *possibly* be interpreted as
any place that is not permitted could be shut down....so this is kinda of
a bitter sweet battle...(hell they even got the general manager from live
105 to give a speech (and i don't think he really was briefed well i think
he was being used as comming from a bussiness organization) i will be
posting phone and fax numbers..and there is a meeting on monday when it
goes before the board...i will keep you all posted...partyon...susie (:

p.s. supervisor leal has it all wrong!!! she is being manipulated by the
mission district merchants (big bussiness) so that she can deny what i see
as a constitutional right...also she doesn't realize that this law is
currently not being enforced and so the result of this law being amended
will be exactly like now...dahhhhh!



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 15:05:27 1993
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Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 15:05:22 -0700
From: red@net.bio.net (Ben Wing)
Message-Id: <9309302205.AA11391@net.bio.net>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: FMR?  Where'd it go?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

After getting to the first site and finding only a Darth Vader policeman
saying "TURN AROUND AND LEAVE." and finding almost no one at the supposed
second site in Sunnyvale and driving some more, I was understandably
bummed ...

What happened?  Did it go anywhere?  If so, where?

ben

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 15:21:54 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Cc: dhchung@us.oracle.com
Subject: Re: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Sep 93 14:44:43 PDT
    from Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
    <9309302144.AA13029@slamdance.us.oracle.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 15:21:36 -0700
From: vivianm@src.dec.com
X-Mts: smtp
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


---Tuesday-------------------------------------------------------------------

Together - Simon, Garth, guests - Big Heart City (339 Jessie) 
>>>>>Progress - 150 S.2nd St in San Jose (Club Oz, lower level entrance).
	21+, 408-236-2284.  DJs Julius, Rick Preston, Leonard & guests
This is no longer happening on Tuesday nights due to the space location 
and lack of interest. 
---Wednesday-----------------------------------------------------------------

Housing Project - DJs Jeno & Josh. 9-330am @ the EndUp, 401 6th @ harrison 21+
Mystery School - 525 Harrison @ 1st (Sound Factory) - 21+, 11pm - sunrise
	415-337-4905
Tilt - Jan Cooley, Neon Leon, Frankie Feliciano, Roger S. - 540 Howard (DV8)
>>>>>Limbo Lounge - every other Wednesday (at Selectionz?) - San Jose
This is not happening any longer either.  Rick Preston is planning 
on starting up at FX on Wednesday nights. I believe this is starting 
next Wednesday.   There may be something starting up on Tuesday nights at 
Selextionz. I will let everyone  know when I know. 

_________________________________________________________________


Have a good weekend all, 

vivianm



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 15:26:11 1993
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From: poier@sfu.ca
Message-Id: <9309302225.AA22047@malibu.sfu.ca>
Subject: Orb in the Bay?
To: sfraves@soda.berkeley.edu
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 15:25:51 PDT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Faculty: Computing Science and Mathematics
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hi..

When is The Orb coming to SF?  Please respond personally, as I'm not on your
list any more (found one a little closer to home)...

thanks
                                                        -- S.

---=== Rave is when you and me connect as one and one is all there is. ===---


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 16:01:36 1993
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From: kawakami@noc.usfca.edu (Sea Of Sin)
Message-Id: <9309302303.AA21465@noc.usfca.edu>
Subject: more diverse events (fwd)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 16:03:11 -0700 (PDT)
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Since my mail didnt go through the first time last night.. Here we go
again. Please excuse the > marks.
 
> Since there is an interest for breakbeat and hardcore music on sfraves, I
> think sfraves should support some kind of rave (I hate ot use the 
> r-word) featuring a different range of music. There are people here who
> are unexposed to bb and hardcore, which is popular elsewhere around the
> world. Events like YSH is the only thing that offers different styles of
> music. Though I doubt that SF is ready for "nose bleed" hardcore techno
> (200+ bpm) but rather a something a bit faster paced (140+??). I think
> Laura's set proves that there are people who really like hard trance. 
> Also I know that people elsewhere who DJ would like to play here, but it's
> difficult because if the style they play and the difficulty of getting into
> the scene here. YSH allows SF to be exposed to women dj's but also it is
> bringing different types of music that is popular elsewhere. Too bad
> there isn't a bi-weekly event that has a combination of all types of
> music including breakbeat and hardcore. Basically all we need need is the
> time, effort, a sound system, and a space to do it. 
> 
> c
>  -- 
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sea>of<sin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>    D  E  M  A  N  D    T  H  E    F  L  O  W    O  F    R  H  Y  T  H  M
> >>>>kawakami@noc.usfca.edu>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<kawakami@alm.admin.usfca.edu<<<
> >>>>seaofsin@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>>>><<<<<<<<<cin@coreys.berkeley.edu<<<<<<<<
> 
> 


-- 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sea>of<sin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
   D  E  M  A  N  D    T  H  E    F  L  O  W    O  F    R  H  Y  T  H  M
>>>>kawakami@noc.usfca.edu>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<kawakami@alm.admin.usfca.edu<<<
>>>>seaofsin@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>>>><<<<<<<<<cin@coreys.berkeley.edu<<<<<<<<


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 16:19:37 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
Message-Id: <9309302320.AA21161@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Auricular Records
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 16:20:02 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


 Last year , I made a post about the dissappearance of Auricular Records ,
one of the few sources of recordings by Big City Orchestre , Nux Vomica ,
and other experimental bands. 

 Well , Auricular Records is still in business. I picked up a mail order
catalog at the WORKS gallery in San Jose ( Nux Vomica had just made a
live performance there ). In the catalog are offered recordings by the 
artists I've mentioned above , as well as Curium and Chemical Toybox ,
and some solo efforts.

The address is:
 
	Auricular Records
  	2434 21st Avenue
  	San Francisco , CA 94116
  
 Business Phone [ call between 12 noon and 5PM ] (415) 664-6302
 
Looking at the size of the catalog , I'm sure two 1st Class stamps would
pay for postage.
 
 
 					Larry Ching/larryc@netcom.com
 

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 16:35:53 1993
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Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 16:10:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gioni Pasquinelli <pasque@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: FMR
To: The Ravin' Peoples <sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU>
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	Well it was a pretty terrible night...here goes

	Gregor, Rob and I drove to the site on San Antonio from Davis
arriving about 2:30.  Right when we pulled up we heard rumors of cops and
another site.  
	We got directions to go back over the bay to Fremont along 
Paseo Padre.  As we were pulling in we passed a parked cop who most likely
wondered why so many cars were passing by his way.  We parked got out
and meandered around for about ten minutes till a cop rolled up.
	Upon seeing the hundreds of people he kicked back and waited for the
backups to arrive.  The FMR crew went down to talk to them and see if they
would allow us to set up.  By 3:30 everyone came back and said that do to
the possibility of gang violence we were to move to another site.  I
figured thats all right cause at least the cops were gonna let us do our
thing just somewhere else.
	So we followed the van further south in Fremont to a wetlands spot
were they started setting up.  I was pretty happy at this point and
couldn't figure out why we hadn't come here first.  It was a perfect site.
But of course it didn't last!  They had almost finished setting up when a
cop rolled up and over the bull horn shouted.  Get in your cars and go
home, you are creating a fire hazard and must leave.
	I couldn't believe it!  We were on solid dirt surrounded by marsh
yet we were a fire hazard.  Yeah right?!  By then it was around 5 or later
and so we went home.  I didn't feel like waiting around for another site
to be picked so we left for the two hour drive home.  
	It was a pretty bad night, but maybe YSH can make up for it!

	Did anything happen after that?

Peace out,
G

Gioni Pasquinelli pasque@hamlet.ucdavis.edu  
   



From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 17:14:46 1993
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From: crunch@netcom.com (John Draper)
Message-Id: <9310010015.AA22778@netcom4.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Better late than never - was Pigss at it again!
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

My first attempt to post this failed,  because sfraves mail started to
bounce this morning,  so better late than never....

Well!!  I'm sorry to hear that FMR this month was such a fiasco.   I
went home after the 4th location change (About 4:45 am) at 2nd Fremont
place.

It is a real bummer that the "Land of the free" is so faschist.   Oh Well!
I guess thats why the sfraves Email traffic is so low this morning as
most people are still asleep.

Did the FMR take place after the 4th move?   Someday,  perhaps the pigs
might realize that allowing us to dance at a particular remote location
is a lot safer to the general public than to have 2000 people caravaning
around the Bay Area looking for a place to dance.  It is really pathetic
that this is taking place,   and I think that we should (As a large group)
try and use the democratic process to fix this insanity.

Anyway,  I'll see U all at YSH (I'll probably show up late - after 1am)
as I plan on sleeping after work tonight,  and showing up later than usual.

One other thing,  There is Mr Floppies this weekend,   and I was wondering
how many of U folks will try and make that one.   

I was thinking of trying to go to Davis this weekend to hear Carlos spin,
and visit with all my Sacramento friends this weekend.   So I am torn
between Mr Floppies and the Davis event.   Anyone got any suggestions??

CC

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 18:00:29 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9310010100.AA23097@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
Subject: >Connection Earth<
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Everything is looking good for Connection Earth, just some final points:

1. If Ethan needs help in the morning hauling equipment, I'll be
contacting the volunteers directly.  We'll definately need people in the
evening.  I'm sure I can recruit when that time comes.

2. I'll be bringing garbage bags.  I'll need help bagging and disposing. I
figure the I can take 4 or 5 bags in my car.  If a few people can take a
bag or two home with them, we should be OK.

3. Vibe Enhancers: Those who haven't contributed can relieve themselves of
the overwhelming guilt by bringing fruit, drinks, bubbles, toys, 
luv phasers... whatever will put smiles on faces.  No guns ;-) 

4. I anyone has a cellular phone they could bring, for an emergency, that
would be great.  I don't think GG Park is gang turf, but it'll be nice to
be prepared for anything. 

So far, it looks like the weather will cooperate.  I'm looking forward to
connecting with those that I know, and those that I don't.  Come early, we
might actually be able to start the music at 12, and if not, Marx Meadows
is a real nice place to hang out anyway.

Thanks again to everyone for your encouragement & support!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com
____________________________________________________________________________

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 20:39:47 1993
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Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 20:40 PDT
From: YOUR FRIEND MIKE <MROMO@SCUACC.SCU.EDU>
Subject: hey hey
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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Hello everyone--
Can't tell you how excited I am about making a trip to the park, as it 
were. I might make it to Boogie and then head over, but we shall see.

(Lee, I will pay you there (embarrassed grin))

Anyway, John Williams, Jeno, Spun, and Rick Preston are at Deep Space
tonight so that will go crazy...

okay, after visiting Ravi's place, my friends and I are in the market:
I am looking for two SL1200 turntables and a mixer.

Anyone who knows anyone selling them, thinking about selling them, please
email me.  If anyone can offer advice on a certain type of mixer to look
for or to avoid--that would be great, too.

thanks y'all....have a great friday and see everyone (everyone!) on
Sunday...


mik e

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 21:39:54 1993
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To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
From: jsl@netcom.com (John S. Lee)
Subject: DNA?!?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

I've been hearing rumours that DNA is opening THIS weekend (i.e.Sunday morning).
Does anyone know about this?

Peace,
John

================================================================
"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed
or numbered!..." - No. 6
                 from the village of jsl@netcom.com 
=================================================================


From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 22:12:26 1993
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Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 21:59:44 -0700
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


	Can anyone help me out and give me some info on the upcoming Cypress
Hill concert in San Jose???


				-Greg
				gaprice@othello.ucdavis.edu

From sfraves-owner  Thu Sep 30 22:22:47 1993
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From: larryc@netcom.com (Larry Ching)
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Subject: Sense/Net
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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An addendum to my Auricular Records posting:

 For those who went to Richard Sun's IMAGINATION rave at 177 Townsend , one
of the memorable things there was the free-form improvised music/noise 
ambient room . Called SENSE/NET , it was a sonic performance by members of 
Iao Core , BCO , Nux Vomica , and others. This nine-hour performance was 
reduced to a one hour cassette , available from Auricular Records.

 I've ordered it , and I'll let you folks know what I think of it after
I take a listen.

				Larry Ching/larryc@netcom.com


-- 

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 02:15:03 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 02:14:51 -0700
In-Reply-To: red@net.bio.net (Ben Wing)
       "FMR?  Where'd it go?" (Sep 30,  3:05pm)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: red@net.bio.net (Ben Wing), sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: FMR?  Where'd it go?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

The FMR story....

Site #1: Cops arrived about a half-hour after the first people showed up,
apparently tipped off by a security device in the park itself [we're 
watching you!].  The sound truck and such hadn't even arrived yet.  Geoff
and I started giving cars directions to the second possible site.

Site #2: Arrived on the tail end of the caravan to see a night watchman 
standing at the entrance to the recreation area.  Damn.  Within minutes
4 police cars had entered the parking lot and with their bullhorns asked
people to leave.  I remembered the flyers I made up for directions to a
backup site back in may, in case the May FMR in palo Alto had been a
bust.  didn't use them then, so I pulled them out and used them now.
Within 10 minutes everyone was back on the road to site #3 - many people
went back to the first site, where more directions to site #3 were given.

Site #3: Almost everyone was here by the time the police got wise.  The
area was fairly much in the open, unfortunately - I had thought it would
make a good backup site as it was easy to access from the highway and 
the dance floor was a paved cul-de-sac.  6 more police cars showed up,
and a member of the FMM went to talk to the cops.  They talked for a long
time, while everyone else hung out by their cars and were generally pretty
mellow.  They came very close to granting permission to having it, and 
then the captain came out and said there had been a gang shooting there
a week early (I doubt the truth of this, as it's in the middle of nowhere)
so it was no go.  Someone in the crowd piped up about a site a few miles 
north; this time people didn't even bother with complex directions, they 
simply formed a caravan out, directed by cops with flares in the ground
and airplane-landing-attendant-style hand-held direction lights.  

Site #4: Better than any of the other three, site of a previous smaller
renegade party, with plenty of parking.  Unfortunately the long stream
of cars caught the eye of a security guard at a building the cars passed
by, who called the Newark police, who stopped one of the cars and 
discovered it was the same group of people from site #3 (evidently word
gets around fast inpolice departments at 4 in the morning).  As it turned
out even though the route went through Newark, the actual site was in
Fremont, the same jurisdiction as the previous site, so the same cops came
down and asked us to leave, jokingly suggesting we should have gone there
first.  It was decided that 4 tries was enough for one night, and that maybe
another party would be attempted the next night, tonight.

So, I dunno if anything actually is happening, I'm here at school with a
project due tomorrow... anyone go?  It is/was probably somewhere quite
safe, like bonny Doon.  

Anyways, referring to it as a "fiasco" or "disaster" is probably NOT the 
best choice of words.  it implies ignorance and intentional mistreatment
by those who were throwing the party, and I can assure you no one wanted
it to happen at those places than us.  Maybe the sites could have used
some more thought and scouting, but all of them at least had the potential
for a rocking party, and it was simply a series of misfortunes that
caused the party to not take place.

Well, the Fremont cops wished us better luck next time, so we'll see....

        Brian

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 02:44:13 1993
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From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 02:43:57 -0700
In-Reply-To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf)
       "Re: FMR?  Where'd it go?" (Oct  1,  2:14am)
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91)
To: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf), red@net.bio.net (Ben Wing),
        sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re: FMR?  Where'd it go?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

On Oct 1,  2:14am, I proclaimed:
} by those who were throwing the party, and I can assure you no one wanted
} it to happen at those places than us.  

I meant to say "more than us".... 

I should also add that there were probably 200 in this caravan.  I guess
there's just no place in the south bay you can hide a 200-car caravan.

	Brian

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 08:51:31 1993
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From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel)
Message-Id: <9310011551.AA00998@pbssi.srv.PacBell.COM>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, jsl@netcom.com
Subject: Re: DNA?!?
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

JSL:
> I've been hearing rumours that DNA is opening THIS weekend (i.e.Sunday morning).
> Does anyone know about this?

I thought this was "Lost It" *Saturday*  morning, 2am - noon.  Acid, Trance,
with Dutch and others.

- leg of eel

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 10:43:48 1993
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From: Mark Metz / Future Forum <mmetz@soda.berkeley.edu>
Message-Id: <9310011743.AA28536@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject: orb and sensenet
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 10:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
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Content-Type: text
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to avoid panic i will post the orb tickets as soon as they arrive at
ameba on this here computer gismo. i was called on tuesday by orb
woman voice and asked if she could bring them friday. so we will
be  strung in anticipation untill further notice. 

Larry has wisdom in his long memorie of sense net and the auricular
thing. Allan & jenny of auricular are sound sculpters of the old
school 1st wave of "industrial" which i believe mix heavy into rave/
underground dance music roots. disco, is the popular force, which
brought the vinyl out of the nerdy record private school, and into
group pleasure. Rave is weird electric sound with rythym, 
but it has sparked a new intrest in more abstract, non rythymic sound
but many have a short memmory and due to the negative image of the
testosterone wax trax "industrial" the people who really can deliver
the most awesome "ambient " sound come from the old school(steven stapleton
cab voltaire members etc.) I do not like my ambient room to sound like
a cancer therapy healing new age flute harp synth mush. i like the music to
be mentally engaging and viceral swirling trippy witty beautiful....not
just a cliche of what a few eno records gave birth to.
 
I am so happy that the park is happening, this music and our bodies
need daytime outdoor )F\ffM!s v<,?o                                       
                  salutations

                              allen@ameba


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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 93 11:38:21 PDT
From: PLUI@IOSSVR.gm.hac.com
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To: hac2gm::arpa::"nw-raves@wimsey.bc.ca"@hac2arpa.hac.com
Subject: Seattle XLR8R zine poll
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Hulllooo OoO oOo!!!

Here is a survey from the Seattle's XLR8R zine. (reprinted it wo permission)  

They are offering prizes:

	You could win a free gift!!! If you fill this poll out completely
	and turn it in not only will you help to change this magazine for 
	the better but you will be placed in a drawing in which the winner
	may choose from the following:
		a) Shitty Rave CDs
		   -LA Style (incl "Im Raving" and "James Brown is Dead")
		   -Rave 'Til Dawn comp (The Movement, 2 Unlimited...)
		   -Smart E's "Sesamee's Treet" 	
		    (who can forget this kiddie classic?)
		b) Vinyl from Tribal America
		   -4 new 12"s from a rather lovely label
		c) Techno Treat
		   -Tressor Comps 1&2 on CD

It says you can bring the poll in to:
	Reactor - Seattle, 1st ave
	Basic - Seattle, Broadway
	XLR8R - Seattle, U-district
	Turntable Mary's - Portland
	HouseWares - San Francisco

or mail it to XLR8R, 1314 NE 43rd Suite 208, Seattle, WA 98105

but since the editor of XLR8R has an email acct, you can flood his mbox:
	bollock@u.washington.edu    here's a message from to nw-raves:

>Hello dearest ravers,
>My name is Andrew Smith, I run this crap magazine called XLR8R out of
>Seattle. It is a dance music mag, covering mostly raves. Anyway, I have
>been meaning to send you all a message so that I might begin to get
>information from you people.
>Andrew
 
or send it to me, and i'll get it to him.
	plui@iossvr.gm.hac.com
 
pat
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Where do you call home?
	a. Seattle
	b. Between the Cascades and the Rockies
	c. Vancouver, BC
	d. Oregon (specify)
	e. San Francisco
	f. Elsewhere in CA (specify)
	g. East coast
	f. Elswhere (specify)

2) How old are you?
	a. -18
	b. 18-20
	c. 21-25
	d. 26-35
	e. 36-45
	f. 46+

3) Gender?
	a. Female
	b. Male
	c. Undecided

4) Species?
	a. Upper Food Chain
	b. Lower Food Chain
	c. Extraterrestrial

5) Sexual Preference?
	a. Homosexual
	b. Heterosexual
	c. Bisexual
	d. Boring

6) How often do you go out dancing?
	___ times a month, or
	___ times a week

7) What kind(s) of music do you like?
	a. House	h. Techno	l. Tribal
	b. Trance	i. Rave		m. Acid Jazz
	c. Soul		j. Rare Groove	n. Funk
	d. Hip Hop	k. Ambient	
	e. I have no idea
	f. I hate dance music
	g. Others ___________ 

8) What factors are most important in your decision to go out?
	a. Price			h. Location
	b. Guarantee of good time	i. Non-presription drugs
	c. Alcohol			j. Sex
	d. Music			k. DJs
	e. Education/enlightenment 	l. Posing
	f. Drooling
	g. Others ____________

9) Does it matter to you who the DJs are when you go out?
	a. yes
	b. no

10) Do you have a preference to who is throwing the party/club night?
	a. yes
	b. no

11) Do you like being intoxicated when you are dancing?
	a. yes
	b. no

12) Do any of these DJ skills matter to you?
	a. Mixing		c. Scratching
	b. Fader tricks		d. Dancing

13) How far are you willing to travel for an event?
	a. 0-5 miles		d. 5-15 miles
	c. 15-50 miles		e. 50-200 miles
	f. 200+ miles

14) How much are you willing to spend for a really good club?
	a. Nothing	d. $1-3		f. $3-5
	b. $5-10	e. $10-20	g. $20+
	c. There are no good clubs

15) What do you buy the most?
	a. Vinyl	c. CDs
	b. Tapes	d. Food

16) How much per month do you spend on any of the above?
	a. Nothing	e. $1-10
	b. $10-20	f. $20-50
	c. $50-100	g. $100-250
	d. More? ______

17) I found XLR8R (zine) at _______ or I got the survey from _______ (list)

18) Would you consider paying for the magazine?
	a. yes
	b. no
	c. if yes, how much? _____

19) Would you consider a subscription?
	a. yes
	b. no

20) What other crap magazines do you read?
	a. Urb			j. Move (Ex-US Rave)
	b. Reactor		k. The Flavor
	c. Import Index		l. Project X
	d. SIN			m. The Bomb
	e. Street Sounds	n. The Source
	f. Vibe			o. Rolling Stone
	g. DJ			p. Mixmag
	h. Mondo 2000		q. Wired
	i. Others ___________

21) Which columns in XLR8R do you like/dislike?
	a. Yard Vibes
	b. "The Scene"
	c. Sights and Sounds of SF
	d. Rawno's Rantings
	e. Hazard Tech
	f. Utopian Realignment
	g. Go Ask Alice

22) Quote yourself:


23) Anything else?




that's it!  
 

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 15:11:44 1993
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From: "Barry Alexander" <barryale@symantec.com>
Message-Id: <9309017495.AA749513363@symantec.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Re:>Connection Earth<
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU



    i hope none of you are bashfull or camera shy 'cause i was planning on      
    bringing my super-8 film camera and shooting tranced-out grooving
    sfravers.  i'll be the tall dude wearing shorts and army boots.  hope
    to seeya all there.  later.

    barry

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 16:34:37 1993
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 93 16:35:04 -0700
From: tweekin@netcom.com (Richard Balcon)
Message-Id: <9310012335.AA05086@netcom3.netcom.com>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Subject: Mission Rock - October Calendar
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

cc: tweekin

Oct 1st - Garth
Oct 8th - Thomas
Oct 15th - Gavan
Oct 22nd - Neon Leon
Oct 30th - Jon Williams

with Alex and Kevin downstairs.

10 til later on, only $5.


From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 16:57:46 1993
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From: Derek Chung <dhchung@us.oracle.com>
Subject: p-funk online ;)
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU (SFRaves)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 93 16:59:08 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU


I don't know if this is for real, but the idea sounds sorta familiar...  :)

-Derek


<forwards deleted>

>
>---------------------------- o f f i c i a l
>
>                           i n v i t a t i o n ------------------------------
>
>
>                    The Goal & Objectives of P-funk online 
>
>    To bring together, not necessarily unite, people of all kinds to dance-
>                         "THE DANCE" at "THE PARTY"
>
>    The pre-PARTY preparation consists of establishing the "P-funk Network"
> 
>p-funk online is set up to help us network with others in areas we feel most
>comfortable. This will help us discuss issues, express feelings, share ideas
>                  and basically get to know each other before
>                                 THE PARTY.
> 
>I am the system operator (sysop) of p-funk online (pfo). pfo is a computer 
>bulletin board system (bbs) dedicated to the funk. What is funk? I think 
>funk is a way of thinking. A whole attitude and outlook on life and the way
>one handles things. I started this bbs so the funky folx would have a place
>to compute.(There are funky computer people).  WE ARE THOSE PARTY PEOPLE!
>
>pfo will be the backbone of a worldwide club of funky folx dedicated to one
>thing: THE DANCE. A bunch of folx on the same beat ain't nothing but a party.
>To find that rhythm, all we have to do is know each other. I'm not talking
>about uniting the world, just getting to know some of the people in it. 
>
>I see alot of people trying to stop racism, save trees, halt injustice. 
>Not us. We're all about a real good time. Up for the for the downstroke.
>We ain't try'n to change the world, just play in it. You with me?
>
>If you can help with THE PARTY or need more info, rsvp to pfo. 
>You'll wanna be down with this. Come funk with us.
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------- o f f i c i a l
>
>                           e n l i s t m e n t ------------------------------
>
>                            Wut da'funk is up?
>                                        
>                          
>                        Welcome to p-funk online.
>                                     
> PFO is in pre-PARTY-prep stage 1", "infunktry enlistment". The infunktry is
>made up mostly of dancefloor guerillas, our frontline funkers. The first come
>funky of this group will be selected Regional Beat Keepers. RBKs will be re-
>sponsible for the region's off-line infunktry enlistment and rhythm main-
>tenance. RBKs will keep their region's infunktry on the ONE. The ONE is our
>universal beat. Are you with me out there? I don't think y'all hear me. 
>
>This ain't nuttin but a party. Let's get this party started right. 
>Check out the questionaire. Answer how ya'like. 
>And if ya'like, add wutcha'like. OK?
>
>Name:                            
>Sex:           Age:
>Address:
>City\State\Zip\Country:
>e-mail addresses:
>
>Education:
>Occupation:
>Skills:
>
>
>da'opinion part
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Favorite:
>  Music:
>  Group\Singer:
>  Dance Club:
>  City to party in:
>  
>You down to be a RBK?
>
>anything else you wanna say?
>
>
>
>p-funk online 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>p.o. box 72
>Azusa, CA 91702-0072
>
>data:(818) 914 0498    
>voice:(818) 963 3197
>
>pfo@pfunkonline.com
>
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 o derek chung  o  oracle graphics  o  dhchung@us.oracle.com  o 415.506.6195 o
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 18:40:31 1993
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 18:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Susan R. Kameny" <susie@sutro.SFSU.EDU>
Subject: susie's guide to world peace
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Message-Id: <Pine.3.07.9310011824.D18674-9100000@sutro>
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Why don't they play techno outside the white house parliment (in russia?
is that what they are calling it these days?) and not rocknroll...
(i am sorry but dire straits "money aint for nothing" just doesn't have
that healing peaceful spirit)

partyon...susie (:



From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 19:32:52 1993
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From: Randy Tinkerman <rmt@well.sf.ca.us>
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU, vivianm@src.dec.com
Subject: Re: This Week's SF Rave Guide!
Cc: dhchung@us.oracle.com
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Date: 	Fri, 1 Oct 1993 19:28:32 -0700
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Josh told me Housing project has moved to Thurs & Sat nites.

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 19:34:04 1993
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Date: 	Fri, 1 Oct 1993 19:29:52 -0700
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Josh told me Housing Proj has moved to Thurs & Sat nites.

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 20:41:23 1993
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From: brycer@netcom.com (Bryce Ryan)
Message-Id: <9310020341.AA03096@netcom3.netcom.com>
Subject: Liquid Air needs help
To: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 93 20:41:47 PDT
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Sender: sfraves-owner@techno.Stanford.EDU

Greetings from the Fluid Grooves posse!

We're in the first throes of putting together Liquid Air for October,
and we need some help.  I wanted to put this out to the list to solicit
any assistance you can offer.  We also need help with some specifics.
Please send me some return email if you can help.  We definitely need:

1.  3 people to load, 3 people to unload
2.  People to personally hand out flyers at the major parties, the hotspots
    on Haight, the hotspots in Berkeley, the east bay, the peninsula, and
    san jose.  We could also use some help in getting the word out to
    your friends.
3.  People to oversee the parking area
4.  People to help collect donations and greet folks

If you can help somewhere else, let me know, too.  Any and all assistance
is greatly appreciated!
-- 
Bryce Ryan -- AMBIANCE --------- brycer@netcom.com------------
Sound surrounds you like Liquid Air ------- Every Month ------
415-487-8497 -- Audio by Sound Vision -- Flyer by Dave Scruton

From sfraves-owner  Fri Oct  1 21:23:31 1993
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 21:19:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Partyon <magskita@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu>
Subject: psa
Cc: sfraves@techno.Stanford.EDU
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from thej guardian...

"Monday, Oct. 4 is thje last day to register for the Nov. 2 general
election. For those who aren't registered, or have moved since thje last
election, an updated affidavit of registration is in order.

Contact thje county registrar of voters for more information.  In San
Francisco, call (415) 554-4398. In Alameda County, call (510) 272-6973."

partyon....susie (:



